While I agree that things are improving quickly in Taiwan, sometimes I feel like I’m banging my head against a brick wall. Being told that an animal needs to be put down because he’s got a shaved spot, is a good example of how some people really need to be educated. Telling superman that he should also be put down is maybe not the best way to go about it…[/quote]
No it actually comes across IMO as superman got your goat and your attention. Personally, who cares if superman or anyone like him believe that an animal needs to be put down because of their small defect. Those little negative points views detract you from the bigger picture.
Perhaps, superman, has been ‘put down’ already. He’s had a stroke and isn’t fully able to rejoin the work force or be a part of society in a fully functional way. That’s a major blow for someone who lives in a society where one’s value is based upon how much one can contribute to their family in a financial way. I’d be wiling to bet, at home, not too much patience is granted him. Or he may not have much with himself since he isn’t healthy.
If people are to be educated about animal welfare, IMO I think that we have to make people see how they are more apart of the solution rather than being the problem.
[quote=“Mordeth”]Fine, you win. Good point. So in conclusion the whole human race sucks. And if you ever run someone over with your car…don’t feel guilty about not stopping because the chances are they were shit anyway…being a human and all.
And I know this reads as being sarcastic…but it’s not. Humans are shit.[/quote]
No, it’s not acculturation. We in the west largely grew out of treating animals badly as a result of modernization. Simple fact that modern (urban or suburban) folk are lot more squeamish than rural folk and lose a lot of the old violent ways as they move away from a poor, traditional, hardscrabble life. They also have access to mass media that bring awful matters to their attention in ways they cannot ignore. Happens everywhere. Again, as I wrote, my MIL needed no exposure to western thinking or culture to abandon the violent old traditions of the countryside.
Most Taiwanese over 30 can probably remember having chickens killed in their house by their mothers. How many would be willing to do something liek this now? Not many. Urbanization and modernization and a higher stadard of living have the general effect of softening people, and making them more concerned about matters like cruelty to animals, to children, and damage to the environment.
My main point in starting this thread was to explore what causes people to be be cruel to animals, in particular by abandoning them. I don’t think it’s a facile issue. I have had good success talking to Taiwanese about social issues in part by bringing up the fact that we in the west once acted much like they do here. I find people don’t hear this with a sense of relief (now I can excuse myself) but with a sense of surprise and hopefulness. They feel that if we evolved then so can they. Yes, there is still the shame that their country is so full of incidents of animal cruelty, but understanding that it is not because Taiwanese are inherently cruel liberates the mind to think of ways to help the problem.
There are so many changes in this society that have nothing to do with western acculturation so I see no reason to believe that for the average person western influence matters much when it comes to animals. Almost no young woman now will consent to her parents chosing her hsuband for her. Is this a result of western acculturation? No, it’s about education and economics. My MIL was first married off by her family to a wealthy local businessman as a second wife. She fought to remarry and thirty years later her university educated daughter was free and confident enough to marry a foreigner.
Anyway, I am rambling. My point: people are not shit, but are largely molded by their society. Taiwan is a rapidly changing society, with great potential to be fairer, freer, and less cruel. Hope, as Lu Xun said, is like an overgrown field. As more and more people cross it, the way becomes obvious.
I wasn’t talking American acculturation. Aside from that, it sounds like we are on the same page.
[quote]Urbanization and modernization and a higher stadard of living have the general effect of softening people, and making them more concerned about matters like cruelty to animals, to children, and damage to the environment. [/quote]That would be acculturation fueled by modernisation.
A fine from NT$20,000 to NT$100,000 shall be imposed on one who:
Abandons the animals he keeps and causes ecological damage in violation of Paragraph 3 of Article 5.
Any record of it being enforced?
They do it…because they can…spaying and neutering is considered “太貴”…
So the stray population grows, many die of disease, cars, and the “pounds” and they are damn awful…never seen anything like it…what a horror.
If we in the west are so modern, and if modernization reduces cruelty, then why do we in the west continue to mistreat and abuse animals on such a large scale?
In fact, Taipei is in many ways more modern than my hometown, yet there is not a stray problem in my hometown. Moreover, the notion of being compassionate to all animals has been around Asia for many many years thru Buddhism.
You are confusing the issue. Modern living makes it possible for more of us to live with more conveniences, thus we needn’t raise and kill our own food. Civilization and the division of labor took care of that, however, for many people, a long long time ago. Its silly, however, to argue that modern conveniences have somehow lessened our capacities for cruelty and or indifference to the suffering of other beings. And I don’t have the stats to support this, but I am certain that more violent crime occurs in urban areas than in rural and even suburban areas. There are many reasons for this, of course, but arguing that modernization has tempered our violent streaks is wrong, IMO.
I think people gave up killing their own food for the same reason they abandon animals… its more [color=red]convenient[/color] to buy your pre-killed, pre-plucked, pre-cut and packaged chicken at the grocery store than it is to do all that by yourself and its more [color=red]convenient[/color] to abandon your pet than it is to accept the responsibility to care properly for the animal.
Moreover, modernization has resulted in mass migration to the urban areas where you assert that people have come to leaving their brutal ways back on the farm… but, it is likely more convenient to raise a dog on a farm in a rural setting than it is to raise one in a cramped apartment in the crowded city. Makes walking the dog… an ever so important aspect of ownership and care… rather inconvenient in contrast to country living. Again, its convenience that seems an important factor to me.
That’s called education and awareness, and it is not necessarily a function of modernization or westernization.
But, what the heck is your argument? Is it modernization, or awareness that shaped and changed your MIL’s thinking? If it was a sudden awareness, then I think the change certainly was due to acculturalization rather than exposure to modernization (I mean, she was no more modern in the minutes after her change than she was before)… again, the Taiwanese are in many ways more modern than myself and the folks from my home town… doesn’t seem to be much of a factor.
So what? I grew up on a farm and killed many chickens. I never enjoyed doing that, and I never abused other animals because I was “hardened” to the kill. I, like anyone else, would prefer to buy my chicken at the grocery store. Its simpler and more convenient. That’s all.
That’s just nonsense. I don’t think you know what you want to say. Is it modernization, or urbanization? Or now is it both? IMO, neither has had much of an affect on our abilities to be cruel and violent. Violent gangs exist and thrive in urban environments. Violent crime is typically worse in urban environments. Taipei is very urban and modern compared to many places in the US and Canada. Yet, abuse of aminals is common here.
Who is arguing that it is a facile issue?
Again, who is arguing that the Taiwanese are inherently cruel?
Who said anything about western acculturation? The fact is, many Taiwanese are aware of and educated to the problem of animal cruelty. Many are not aware. We can say exactly the same regarding western people.
Right. Awareness and education. Economics? Maybe. But, not necessarily… But, these aspects are not a result necessarily of modernization.
People are cruel or compassionate due to their awareness of suffering and pain and their acceptance that other beings feel pain and suffer just as they do. This is a function of education, primarily, IMO, and modernization is a far off second and or a mere influence or facilitator, rather than a prime reason for change.
[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“Muzha Man”]
My main point in starting this thread was to explore what causes people to be be cruel to animals, [/quote]
Their need to have power and control over a weaker species. Or way to release aggression. Besides, an animal can’t report you.[/quote]
I think this is wrong. My MIL had no need to have power over the puppies when she threw them in the river. They were just a nuisance, and she didn’t want to think much about them which is easy to do when you’ve grown up in poor, rough conditions. If she had been motivated by factors such as you say, she never would have rescued them when they started to cry. People here are mostly carelessly cruel, rather than deliberately, and that is why there is progress and hope.
Its not wrong. It may not be the reason in every instance of abuse, but I’m fairly certain that it is a factor in some cases of abuse.
Well, your MIL is one person and her experiences and or epiphanies are personal to her and not of much use in proving any assertion you have.
However, your MIL’s behavior does at least not contradict what I have stated re abuse or an end to abuse, i.e., that it is more a matter of convenience for many people. We have not ceased butchering our own food because we have become “modern”. We ceased butchering our own food because it is inconvenient to do so when we can conveniently go to the grocery store to purchase our dinner. We are perfectly happy having our food butchered by someone else, however. Unless we all become vegitarians, your assertion seems weak, IMO. Anyway, a person who grows up in poor, rough conditions may well be able to care for a pet dog better than a modern city-dweller.
Not necessarily true. She could have had an epiphany or other enlightenment… not saying that she did or didn’t, just saying that your statement is not absolutely logical.
Well, what does carelessness have to do with modernization?
Good post, and some very good points, Tigerman. Especially the note about convenience. Makes good sense, especially coming from a former farmer.
I think you overlook modernisation, though. Mind me, I’m not a sociologist. TV, the news, the Internet, all have a role to play in the acculturation process. The Internet alone opens the door to the whole world. People did not have access to such information in the past. So I think that modernisation brings in new “perspectives” for the local culture to change its ways, to acculturate itself.
The international community means little to those who live in rural areas with no access to modern communications. Nowadays, you can just do a google search with terms such as “Animal/abuse/Taiwan”, and the result is astonishing. I think that puts a lot of pressure on Taiwan to change its ways, and to become more humane to our furry friends; to gain a better status in the eyes of the international community.
Taiwan is improving quickly when it comes to how animals are treated, and it’s my opinion that modernisation plays an effective role in this process.
[quote=“bobepine”]Good post, and some very good points, Tigerman. Especially the note about convenience. Makes good sense, especially coming from a former farmer.
I think you overlook modernisation, though. [/quote]
Well, I have considered the effect of modernization. However, it appears to me that modernization has been a double edged sword in regard to how we humans perceive animals and their suffereing and how we deal with the same.
In some cases, modernization has undoubtedly helped to facilitate an awareness of animal cruelty and the reasons that it is wrong, while in other cases, modernization has made us look for the easy, convenient way out when it comes to our dealings with animals and their suffering.
Its easy and convenient for me to purchase my dinner at the grocery store, and I needn’t necessarily concern myself with the suffereing of the chicken I buy… its terribly bothersome to care for this dog i have, on impulse, brought into my small modern apartment… its very convenient to abandon the dog… out of sight, out of mind.
What makes people, modern or backward, urban or rural, care about animals and their suffering? IMO, it is awareness of that suffering and an acceptance that such suffering is wrong because I don’t like to suffer either. Until anyone feels that way, they will not likely be concerned with animal suffereing and will smply seek the most convenient path for themself.
Remember the thread we had a while ago re the bull-fighters and the “sport”? I think all of us people posting, regardless of our opinions, can be described as “modern” people. The difference in opinions was a result, IMO, of the level of awareness different posters had of animal suffering and an acceptance that the same is wrong.
Modernization certainly does play a role. But, that role is in spreading awareness and education. The other, dark side of modernization is the way that it causes many to look for a convenient way out of responsibilities, which often leads to a lack of compassion.
Erhmmm…we don’t see them wandering about, because people instantly Bitch over a bit of poo on their “pristine” friggin sidewalks, the dog/ cat is hauled off instantly[ max about 2 hours of freedom for the said offending beastie] then in two weeks or less, if the owner doesn’t claim them, they are euthanized.
So…yeah…which is worse?
Living on the streets starving and sick or death?
The West sanitizes it’s problem, but the problem is very much in existence.
Tigerman:
If one goes by the “pounds” around here…I would agree, it is an act of compassion.
If an animal cat/ dog…is caged continuosly, barely cared for…it is an act of compassion.
[ Lord shoot me for all the dogs I let off chains and out of cages…]
Was it the right thing to do?
The dog was happy.
Found an old blind dog [fat] in a gutter…she wasn’t “cute” anymore, dumped in the country.
Was that compassion? No.
Blatant irresponsible stupidity.
Brought her to a No Kill shelter.
bobepine
[quote] I put my hand in his mouth to show how inoffensive the dog is, and to show that he’s not dirty and that I would cuddle with this dog anytime. He then pointed to the shaved area on the dog and he said “so sick, so sick” with a disgusted look in his face. I could not help it, I asked him “Are you sick?” He answered “yes.” I replied “I think we should kill you too, then.”
[/quote]
Good man.
Mucha Man
In part society, in the middle east dogs are considered absolutely disgusting and filthy. To touch a dog is looked upon with revulsion…so you can imagine how cruelly they are treated.
Even in North America you have extreme and lesser extremes of Animal Abuse. Worked with a vet for several years…you would be disgusted by what the odd “client” comes up with for explanations of injury. Double edged sword as prosecution of such can be turned around on the vet as libel/ slander. Under anesthetic…a little extra…and they never need to experience pain again. Sad world when it comes to that.
Tigerman
Education is part of the answer…another is experiencing similar treatment, others…have always been close to animals/ Inherent.
Have to agree with that…sad thought isn’t it?
If everyone that eats meat had to be the one to raise an animal from its infancy and then be the one forced to slaughter it. By that, I mean feeding it by the bottle, taking care when it is ill, and then slitting its throat…there may be an increase in awareness on a far greater dramatic scale. As it is, chicken legs in packs of 6 , wrapped in plastic…tends to sanitize the whole Death process. Divorces humans from looking at the “meat” as ever having been Alive.
<—Once was an ardent fan of filet migon …then ^^^^^…no more.
Life is a precious thing.
I’ll apologize to Mucha Man…I think in many ways the west is just as cruel to animals. And your point is well made…Asians aren’t heartless sub-humans as many of us animal lovers think them to be.
[quote=“Mordeth”]I’ll apologize to Muzha Man…I think in many ways the west is just as cruel to animals. And your point is well made…Asians aren’t heartless sub-humans as many of us animal lovers think them to be.
[/quote]
My apolgies to you too for swearing at you. You’re obviously the type I was trying to convince so it was pretty stupid to drive you away in the first instance.
Now maybe you can convince me that the hilbillies in Muzha who burn their trash across the river (it’s nice on my side, but the wind you know) aren’t brainless sub-humans.
sorry to be so late to respond to your question of “abortion”??, but good grief no, i was not talking about abortion. i was talking about dumpsters. babies in dumpsters. those big metal containers we in america throw our trash in…
some people throw their new born babies into them as well.
all i am saying, for petes’ sake is that no one has a right to get on their soap box, or their high horse and preach about the condition of animal welfare while we in this usa place are throwing humans into dumpsters by the thousands every year, dogs and cats and killed or abandoned by the hundreds of thousands every year.
so actually i was agreeing with you.
i did see the point.
i only brought it to a different level.
i was not, and do not talk about abortion. it’s a personal choice. there are enough people in the world.
i am all for PRO-CHOICE. and i vote that way too. so don’t read some crap about abortion into my post. you missed my point too then.
pet/child abandonment is also a choice. but it happens. it happens everyday.
you wrote, “people are mean to animals everywhere”. yes sir, i was agreeing with you. and was reinforcing it with the fact that not only are they mean to non-human animals, but are mean to human animals as well. so therefore, yes, i AGREE, no one should ridicule taiwan for being ‘less than animal friendly’. sheesh.
be a part of the solution, or be a part of the problem.
