Don’t need pepper spray for bears. Just hike with someone slower than you.
[quote=“Stray Dog”]
Doorman, take a look at the video link I posted in a previous post.[/quote]I can’t find it in this topic… I must be blind… :s
Good thing the dog had a muzzle on… My question was… Some dogs will still bite… What then? How close do you let the dog come to you before you defend yourself? Kicking distance seems reasonable to me…
That’s the whole thing. If you think that and act defensively, they’re more likely to bite. If you are serious about being calm and assertive, you have to believe they will get bored and back off, and they will.
I let them get close enough to smell me, which is really all they want to do. That’s how they get to know you and then they can relax.
But some dogs will not just smell you… They will bite you. What do you suggest doing once you’ve been bitten, and do you think it would be better to defend yourself before it’s too late? Before you actually get hurt.
Does not compute. Option not allowed in politically correct dog handling manual. Show no normal human emotion. Make no mistakes. You are due for reprograming.
Apart from the mum dog giving me a nip on the ankle, I’ve never been bitten in thousands of interactions with stray dogs, including hundreds who have come running at me or my dogs.
If you’re walking a tightrope between two buildings, you focus on reaching the end, not on the potential fall, because what we envision materializes. if you don’t want to get bitten, don’t get prepared for it.
You have to believe it to see it. 
bob, you responded in the way that many others would have; your posting with glee about kicking a dog in the face was what I look down on.
You mean to believe that dogs will never bite people who follow your protocol? Unlikely… Grew up around dogs and I like them a lot. But some dogs are really aggressive. You haven’t answered my question…
What happened stray dog was that I skimmed over the first page of this thread, gleaned a couple of what I thought were useful bits and the next day I was actually in a situation that probably would have been best handled the way you suggested. I am really pretty sure about that after actually sitting down with the dog. It was an abused half crazy thing but would it have actually bitten me… I dunno.
In actual fact though it scared the living piss out of me and I kicked it. And it felt exciting. It did. That kind of thing feels exciting for exactly the reasons I outlined, I think. It puts you “totally” in the moment. You are filled with adreneline. And you have just stood up in very real way to an attack upon the safety of your person.
Do I think that is the way to respond to real or percieved threats generally? No. Would I recommend it? No.
And in fact in situations like that the emotions are mixed. It is like being thrilled and then deeply ashamed almost immediately.
And maybe that dog “was” going to take a bite at my balls and the only thing that saved me was the kick.
There is no way to know that absolutely. I get the charge and attack scenario thrown at me several times a week. That was definitely the worst one.
Anyway, I came in with my story just as you and MM had painted a clear vision of exactly the opposite kind of response and the wisdom of it, with a good example, with several actually.
I barely read that and posted my story because I’m always in a hurry to tell somebody my stories. You guys always seem to be here so you hear a lot of them. Unfortunately this one came in right at a point in the conversation that you would have needed to be freaking buddha not to be upset by. Upset, you posted without really looking at what I meant. In fact without looking at what I said.
Then I got angry and said stupid things.
Lets say we bury the hatchet on this one. I don’t know you at all, we met “once”, but I’ve always respected what you do.
I have. I just haven’t convinced you. Whatever you believe is true. If you think there is always the dogs who will bite you, your body language will give away that you’re expecting that, and the dogs will pick up on it very readily.
This is dog psychology. You’re using human psychology, and not very well.
It’s not a matter of what you believe. I don’t disagree with what you said at all. Some dogs are aggressive and they will bite whatever you do. That’s whether you expect it or not…
[quote=“bob”]What happened stray dog was that I skimmed over the first page of this thread, gleaned a couple of what I thought were useful bits and the next day I was actually in a situation that probably would have been best handled the way you suggested. I am really pretty sure about that after actually sitting down with the dog. It was an abused half crazy thing but would it have actually bitten me… I dunno.
In actual fact though it scared the living piss out of me and I kicked it. And it felt exciting. It did. That kind of thing feels exciting for exactly the reasons I outlined, I think. It puts you “totally” in the moment. You are filled with adreneline. And you have just stood up in very real way to an attack upon the safety of your person.
Do I think that is the way to respond to real or percieved threats generally? No. Would I recommend it? No.
And in fact in situations like that the emotions are mixed. It is like being thrilled and then deeply ashamed almost immediately.
And maybe that dog “was” going to take a bite at my balls and the only thing that saved me was the kick.
There is no way to know that absolutely. I get the charge and attack scenario thrown at me several times a week. That was definitely the worst one.
Anyway, I came in with my story just as you and MM had painted a clear vision of exactly the opposite kind of response and the wisdom of it, with a good example, with several actually.
I barely read that and posted my story because I’m always in a hurry to tell somebody my stories. You guys always seem to be here so you hear a lot of them. Unfortunately this one came in right at a point in the conversation that you would have needed to be freaking buddha not to be upset by. Upset, you posted without really looking at what I meant. In fact without looking at what I said.
Then I got angry and said stupid things.
Lets say we bury the hatchet on this one. I don’t know you at all, we met “once”, but I’ve always respected what you do.[/quote]
bob, I know you like dogs, and I can see that you’re making a lot of concessions here, which is admirable.
Please understand that I see the results of people’s perceived need to defend themselves against an ‘attacking’ dog all the time. I just spent all evening trying to comfort Xiao Hei, a thirteen-year-old dog who is in intense pain and discomfort after having come round from three hours of reconstructive surgery. Xiao Hei’s face had been smashed open with a baseball bat by someone who believed he needed a strong lesson in how not to do what all ill-cared-for dogs will do and chase people off their turf. What he really needed (but which I accept is unlikely) is for people to stand their ground with him and nothing more.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=121392&id=149123754312
I was preparing Xiao Hei for surgery when I read your post. If my response was stronger than you would have liked it was probably because I recognized in your post the mentality of the guy who attacked Xiao Hei so viciously (on several occasions, apparently; the first time he smashed open Xiao Hei’s skull).
Of course I accept your decent offer to bury the hatchet. And I’ll in return offer to come and demonstrate this technique on any strays you feel need it.
You have a right to cycle without fear of being attacked; I’ve always said that. It’s actually the dogs’ owners’ fault, of course, because almost every single dog will display that same territorial behaviour if not kept in check. The problem is that passersby unwittingly cause the dog to bite with the way they handle the charge or other forms of aggression. If everyone knew and practiced this technique, we’d have much happier cyclists and pedestrians and less animal abuse.
I work with genuinely aggressive dogs often and am usually told by their owners that I do so at my own risk. But I don’t get bitten, even when attacked very viciously, and that’s because I calmly stand my ground.
There’s a couple of stories about two of my cases here http://seanimals.blogspot.com/2008/01/dog-screamer.html and here http://seanimals.blogspot.com/2008/01/good-day.html. Those were both genuinely aggressive, very dangerous dogs.
But I know you know this works, as you’ve practiced it already. I just hope you can maintain that in every situation you find yourself in, for every being’s sake.
I’m going to have to stick with what I know from personal experience with thousands of free-roaming dogs and a number of very dangerous ones I have had to deal with over the years. By staying calm and standing your ground, you are very unlikely to get bitten, and if you use a small barrier, such as a paper (or your bike), then it’s extremely unlikely.
The one time recently where a dog really did intend to bite me (and very badly) was my own fault (it always is), as I had started retreating when he came towards me. When I quickly regained my confidence and refused to step back from a charge, the attacks stopped. In fact, he ran away from me and jumped back into his car.
The dog you’re describing, Doorman, I haven’t met yet. But I can see why you think you may have.
My god… That’s awful… 
I’ve split the rest of the post to the temp forum as I’ve received complaints from posters that this thread, which was useful has spiraled into a you said, I said feud. Up to this point both Stray Dog and Bob have apologized for any misunderstanding, so let’s continue with good advice for cyclists confronted by aggressive dogs.
Dogs chase things on instinct. To discourage being chased, one must also play on their instinct, which amplifies when in pack mode.
I have always done more or less the following, when on a bike or on foot. Often one of their rushes can be impinged while they are moving into assault positions. All warfare is based on deception, and a wily ruse or two played out at a pivotal moment.
Upon approach, make solid eye contact. Raise one’s visual profile. Let them know one is aware of their intent. If they continue to maneuver, dismount and stand tall and still. Speak loudly and clearly; a few simple dissuasive commands. Scout out the leader, who will be in a key physical position, and the minions, who are probably making most of the noise. Try to isolate them from each other. Sap their confidence. Get a primal stare going on. If they continue to advance, make some exaggerated gestures with limbs and any available implements and utter some more commands. Remain calm and collected. Pick up a few rocks, or pretend to. Keep speaking to them. If they close in, flank the leader or an important cadre. Keep a viable route of egress in mind, but stand firm and maintain the perimeter. Launch a short, sharp counter-attack on their flank. Turn that flank. Rinse, and repeat, if needed. Disengage swiftly while their dander is down.
I’ve found that a subtle variation on this theme also works on gangs of scooter punks, and teeming hordes of Boxing Day shoppers.
It was quoted in the OUTSIDE magazine, that the best way to handle aggressive dogs is to spray water into their eyes! You can use your water from your bottles (if you still have any left!) 
Confidence works a whole lot better and you get to feel good at the end of the day, too.
Some situations with dogs you can do very little about–the ones that suddenly lunge at you as you cycle pass their “territories” and those that, in trying to run away from you, panic and run under your tyres. You have to rely on reflexes. Just be aware.