Acutally, It would be fun to see a bunch of gringos protesting and making an arse of themselves. Do it, ASAP. 
Who has that suspicion? Certainly not the 70% of Taiwanese who want independence.
You put Ma in power for what: to lose face and money because the 800 tourists a day should have been 3000 and now the admin has to lie outright and say that the media exaggerated the situation? To have the stock market drop, real estate prices drop, and the economy projected to grow at it’s slowest rate in 5 years? To have Beijing categorically reject allowing Taiwan into the WHO? To freeze arms purchases thus leaving the country vulnerable to attack?
You put Ma in power for all this? Wow! I really don’t understant the average Taiwanese.[/quote]
The standard answer for economic performance for President’s that have been in office for about 6 weeks. Is that it is really a reflection of the previous administration as business people readjust their strategy as public policies in ROC are shifting.
In addition to local business activity it is no secret that ROC economy is tied into their 1st world allies economy, namely the US. Everything from the NTD exchange rate to export market is geared to US consumer. As the US economy is going through a major correction (recession, most likely, if you don’t believe the government numbers. Depression unlikely, however, consumer sentiment make it feel that way.) it will in no small part have a negative impact on ROC economy.
The question has been for the last 20 years is how is ROC suppose to manage this change of a US unipolar world to a multipolar world. Average Taiwanese business people have been pragmatic about the political fear of the becoming too close to the PRC. Flying around to HK and Tokyo prior to entering the mainland, setting up convoluted off shore shell companies, etc. etc. However, being entirely dependent on the USA, economically, politically, and militarily also leaves ROC vunerable to current events. As we have seen and are experiencing now.
The average Taiwanese never supported de jure Taiwan Independence. We as a group support Status Quo. We have been further divide into subgroups within Status Quo using various timescales. But for the sake of discussion it make very little sense or at least to business people to talk about population sentiment when everyone who answers the question will be dead on the infinite time scale. Of course in a political discourse one can give oneself a warm fuzzy feeling by looking at the ambigous Status Quo supporters on various time scales and claim their opinion as their own. But notice the New Party and TSU are not major political parties in Taiwan. Both are too extreme for the politcal taste of the average Taiwanese.
The average Taiwanese believes Frank Hsieh would have made Taiwan even worst than it is now. That’s why we decided to put MYJ in office.
But if you want to put on a (name a color) t-shirt, sit in Taiwan’s hot summer, protesting some PRC tourist, who looks and behave a lot like Taiwanese tourist, go right ahead, it is Free China.
I’m sure you displayed this admirable level of integrity when CSB was in power. How long before you began to criticize his admin? A term, a year, a season, a day? The latter I bet.
Of course Taiwan is going to be affected by global economic downturns. But you are wrong as usual to say that Taiwan is so heavily linked to the US. Despite all the rhetoric that the DPP were isolationists, the economy of Taiwan became more linked to China during their rule. During the last US recession in 2001-2 something like 70% of Taiwan’s exports went to the US. Now less than 30%. Given China’s ability to weather global downturns because of its massive domestic economy, Taiwan was predicted to go through this relatively smoothly. We still probably will.
But it is still deliciously ironic to watch you pan-blues suddenly discovering that outside forces can affect a government’s ability to see its agenda come to fruition. Been taking some classes since the inaugeration?
From the latest TVBS poll:
[quote]Q4. If you can choose, would you prefer Taiwan to become an independent country, or unify with mainland China?
65%: Independent country
19%: Unified with mainland China
16%: No opinion
Q5. In our society, some people think that they are Chinese while other people think that they are Taiwanese. Which do you think you are?
68%: Taiwanese
18%: Chinese
14%: Don’t know/refused[/quote]
The status quo as you put it, merely means that people here are pragmatic enough to say they don’t want to die for the sake of words.
In any case I look forward to the next four years because the excuses you are going to have to come up with for Ma’s failures must needs be ingenious. 
I’ve got 11:48pm July 19, 2008. 500NT.
Mucha Man,
Located here are a translation of all of the questions.
zonaeuropa.com/200806b.brief.htm#002
58% want to maintain status quo
19% want independence
8% unification
45% Taiwanese
45% Taiwanese and Chinese
4% Chinese
Q. What will the two sides of the traits eventually become?
50.2%: Friends
12.5%: Family members
11.8%: Relatives
5.9%: Strangers
4.5%: Enemies
Q. What should President Ma Ying-jeou do first with respect towards mainland China?
55.8%: Economic cooperation
38.4%: Put a stop to diplomatic war
27.3%: Put a stop to military hostilities
19.4%: Social and cultural exchange
13.6%: Political negotiations
Q. In his inaugural speech, President Ma Ying-jeou said that the people on the two sides of the Taiwan Strait are all Chinese and he referred to the mainland people as compatriots. Do you identify yourself as …?
84.9%: A member of the Republic of China
77.2%: A member of the Chinese people
72.5%: Both a member of the Republic of China and a member of the Chinese people
Q. Do you agree that the people on the two sides of the Taiwan Strait are Chinese?
59.7%: Yes
27.9%: No
Based on these set of results do you actually think that the average Taiwanese wants to pursue de jure independence. All indications point to average Taiwanese desiring a peaceful co-existence with the PRC while maintaining some political uniqueness, which Status Quo satisfy.
I could go into a discussion on how the faulty lending practice in the USA, created financial vehicles that negatively impacted the global economy, due to lack of regulation of the free economy as proponents of 1st propaganda let to spout. Basically your argument is flawed because of the globalization of the liquidity market, thus exports to the USA is not a great indicator. You would have to look at exports to countries that trade USA mortgage backed security to understand the breath of the problem caused by the world markets being based US economy…yada yada.
So even if export were like 30% USA, 40% to Europe, 10% Canada, and 5% Australia, etc. But all those places trade US mortgage backed securities, then that would be 85% of all Taiwan exports would be affected in the hypothetic. It will be years before people can get a real number on this issue.
You make it sound as if it was the first day I’ve been posting… 
every single person i have met in china says so. saying tw belongs to china is being a 愛國人… and being a 愛國人 is the big thing here in the olympics year, nationalism at its best! some can get very very arrogant and even violent about this issue. i have learned to avoid talking about this.
i am quite sure they (the PRC gov) brief tourists before they let them in. they are certainly forbidden to talk politics while on the island!
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Muzha Man,
Located here are a translation of all of the questions.
zonaeuropa.com/200806b.brief.htm#002
58% want to maintain status quo
19% want independence
8% unification
45% Taiwanese
45% Taiwanese and Chinese
4% Chinese
Q. What will the two sides of the traits eventually become?
50.2%: Friends
12.5%: Family members
11.8%: Relatives
5.9%: Strangers
4.5%: Enemies
Q. What should President Ma Ying-jeou do first with respect towards mainland China?
55.8%: Economic cooperation
38.4%: Put a stop to diplomatic war
27.3%: Put a stop to military hostilities
19.4%: Social and cultural exchange
13.6%: Political negotiations
Q. In his inaugural speech, President Ma Ying-jeou said that the people on the two sides of the Taiwan Strait are all Chinese and he referred to the mainland people as compatriots. Do you identify yourself as …?
84.9%: A member of the Republic of China
77.2%: A member of the Chinese people
72.5%: Both a member of the Republic of China and a member of the Chinese people
Q. Do you agree that the people on the two sides of the Taiwan Strait are Chinese?
59.7%: Yes
27.9%: No
Based on these set of results do you actually think that the average Taiwanese wants to pursue de jure independence. All indications point to average Taiwanese desiring a peaceful co-existence with the PRC while maintaining some political uniqueness, which Status Quo satisfy.
I could go into a discussion on how the faulty lending practice in the USA, created financial vehicles that negatively impacted the global economy, due to lack of regulation of the free economy as proponents of 1st propaganda let to spout. Basically your argument is flawed because of the globalization of the liquidity market, thus exports to the USA is not a great indicator. You would have to look at exports to countries that trade USA mortgage backed security to understand the breath of the problem caused by the world markets being based US economy…yada yada.
So even if export were like 30% USA, 40% to Europe, 10% Canada, and 5% Australia, etc. But all those places trade US mortgage backed securities, then that would be 85% of all Taiwan exports would be affected in the hypothetic. It will be years before people can get a real number on this issue.
You make it sound as if it was the first day I’ve been posting… [/quote]
Your posting the results from two different polls. The second one sounds a bit fishy to me since it contradicts (“we are all Chinese”) the findings of the first which was done by the blue TV station TVBS but also supports similar findigns by green polls. But I suppose you of all people can - without irony - post the results of two polls and say they support your position even though they contradict each other.
In any case, you said that there is no support for de jure independence. Of course there is support. Lots of it. The majority here want to be independent. But knowing that they already are and saying so formally will accomplish nothing except a possible war they wisely do not push the issue. That is all.
The salient issue, which I repeat for your deaf ears, is that the last 10-15 years have seen the rise of a local identity, which is not identical to what the TI nutters had in mind (a Hoklo homeland as you would say). This is not a green-blue divide but pan Taiwan. Taiwan is not the same as it was when you left. And like most expat communities, yours seems to be stuck in the old world that doesn’t exist anymore.
Here’s a question for you if you want to talk economics: what do you think is wrong with Taiwan’s economy? How to fix it? And if it involves closer links with China how to avoid hollowing out our industries? The argument, as it is usually given, is that Taiwan would be a centre for R&D, banking, insurance, high end manufacturing, etc. How to maintain this in the face of a much larger neighbor who would like all these industries to move there and who’s idea of cooperation is to agree to one set of figures and then change them when the delivery date comes up?
And if these tourists are being carefully screened and represent the vanguard of the proletariat , aren’t they gonna be a little disappointed? I mean these people ain’t gonna hike or see Taiwan’s beauty that you have to search to find. They will see the mainstream attractions and the grime/grittiness of the cities. If the people coming are the international, well travelled elite, won’ t they be a little hard to please. I remember the Japanese tourists complaining about the dirtiness down south when they were brought over on some tour. Wouldn’t it be a better strategy to try and attract the lower middle classes?
you cant compared the chinese “elite” :s with japanese and other nationalities. even high class chinese are just rude and filthy… not too hard to please them, i suppose.
Mucha Man,
Polls for politics, or more accurately for political marketing, are just sampling of people when asked a certain question. Which is why having this conversation could be moot, since it would be required for use to look at the original language to see if the question has a built in basis or the translation might be biased.
Many times greenies, with their new found mandate from CSB, stating that Status Quo already means Taiwan is Independent, will translate polls with the answer “Preserving the current condition” not as “Status Quo” but “Independent.”
This is just language issues of polls. Not the mention the statistical issues of sampling. Which is a whole other level of geek-dom I best spare people, unless f.com have some actuaries that want to talk about models and making things fit…
Like I mentioned if the average Taiwanese were so die hard for de jure Independence they would have put all their support behind the TSU, the most radical version of TI in Taiwan. They are the no-nonsense we want to be de jure independent so bad that we’d rather be our former Japanese colonial selves than the current Chinese in Taiwan.
As a counter note if the average Taiwanese were so die hard for immediate unification they would have put all their support behind the New Party, the most radical version of Chinese nationalism in Taiwan. They are the no nonsense you have no Chinese pride and most likely a traitorous lap dog if you don’t embrace the current modern Han identity that Dr. Sun fought and died for.
Oh right, the pan-Taiwan identity that has so many wedge issues, when an average Taiwanese claims to be an average Taiwanese, a non-Han will claim otherwise, citing multiple abode, bilingual, bicultural, military service, wife, children, the kitchen sink, etc.
Would I have this much fun on f.com playing up or playing down certain wedge issues that Taiwan politics innately has for four years if this all powerful pan-Taiwan identity was as unified as you claim? 
Here is the major issue on the pan-Green version of the Taiwanese identity. It is too restrictive and ambiguous to their needs of forming a voting block that they can politically market to. Until the DPP get a clue about localization as something everyone from Taiwan can take pride in, and not some sort of wedge issue, they are unnecessarily fragmenting society and reducing the talent pool.
Till then the Chinese identity has a slight advantage over the Taiwanese one in Taiwan in terms of having a larger talent pool to choose from. Not to mention more appealing.
Use the ac_dropout persona as the litmus test, because when it is accepted as just another average Taiwanese by the pan Green then you know they finally understand how to appeal to the majority of people in Taiwan. Till then they are just another group of politicians appealing to most xenophobic and unprogressive bunch in Taiwan.
As for what Taiwan needs to do for the economy in a brief paragraph or two. Basically the localization identity issue has dried up the talent pool, or more accurately drove them away. The anti-China stance has impeded investment money from entering Taiwan to develop unique industries. Once the political barriers are removed to get back the talent and investment dollars, I would suggest not trying to emulate Japan (that failed animation or game initiative) or South Korea (Is ROC winning the flat screen monitor race yet). But pursue taboo things like Singapore (stem cells research anyone). Off shore banking for grey market PRC businesses…etc.
Leverage the unique art-house movie culture in Taiwan to be exported overseas. Or even the ballad rich Mando pop…basically a niche within the Chinese culture developed in Free China that South Korea, HK, and Japan cannot easily emulate. Only in Taiwan will someone make a movie with a Japanese porn star and a watermelon…
I’m a firm believer in that when a talented person has some money, they are bound to make more. The key is how to keep the talent people around. One way is not to exclude them from the average Taiwanese identity.
Or this whole average Taiwanese issue can be a lesson to all those “Taiwanese, not Chinese” proponents because sometimes identities aren’t just self proclamation.
So if I answered the TVBS poll as “Chinese and Taiwanese,” would I be incorrect in stating in f.com I’m an average Taiwanese?
Or if there exist an even more Americanized, but less Sinofied, Asian individual with almost the same background as ac_dropout, but who’s views were pan-Green to the TSU end of the spectrum, would that persona have a greater claim to the average Taiwanese?
How the mind boggles when discussing simple identity issues with products of the 1st world? It almost seems as if their country of origin never really resolved assimilation issues like the Han Chinese.
These are the views of the average Taiwanese.
And if these tourists are being carefully screened and represent the vanguard of the proletariat , aren’t they gonna be a little disappointed? I mean these people ain’t gonna hike or see Taiwan’s beauty that you have to search to find. They will see the mainstream attractions and the grime/grittiness of the cities. If the people coming are the international, well travelled elite, won’ t they be a little hard to please. I remember the Japanese tourists complaining about the dirtiness down south when they were brought over on some tour. Wouldn’t it be a better strategy to try and attract the lower middle classes?[/quote]
Have you ever travelled in China? No, I don’t think Chinese tourists will be disappointed. Most Chinese attractions are grossly over-rated and have no trouble pulling in the middle class. I honestly do hope that that there will be a lot of complaints about pollution and grime and what not. The shame would certainly propell the gov into tackling these issues seriously. Sad to say but most Chinese mid-sized cities are far more well laid out and “asthetic” than those in Taiwan. Another KMT legacy for you ac.
And if these tourists are being carefully screened and represent the vanguard of the proletariat , aren’t they gonna be a little disappointed? I mean these people ain’t gonna hike or see Taiwan’s beauty that you have to search to find. They will see the mainstream attractions and the grime/grittiness of the cities. If the people coming are the international, well travelled elite, won’ t they be a little hard to please. I remember the Japanese tourists complaining about the dirtiness down south when they were brought over on some tour. Wouldn’t it be a better strategy to try and attract the lower middle classes?[/quote]
Have you ever travelled in China? No, I don’t think Chinese tourists will be disappointed. Most Chinese attractions are grossly over-rated and have no trouble pulling in the middle class. I honestly do hope that that there will be a lot of complaints about pollution and grime and what not. The shame would certainly propell the gov into tackling these issues seriously. Sad to say but most Chinese mid-sized cities are far more well laid out and “asthetic” than those in Taiwan. Another KMT legacy for you ac.[/quote]
Only Yunnan (for about 3 weeks), but I found the infrastructure in Dali, Lijiang, Kunming etc. to be better than in a lot of places in Taiwan. I think Taiwan has a lot of gems, but they aren’t necessarily the ones that are shown in planned tours. I think if the Chinese government only sends over their international and well-behaved people (,many of these people have been educated overseas and have worked in US and Europe), they might be disappointed in some respects. A strategy aimed at middle class people would be better. The people that go see replicas of the Eiffel Tower in China cuz they don’t want to leave the country. I think these people would be happy to go to Taiwan. Sort of the like Costa del Sol as a place for working class Brits.
Taiwans gonna be one giant disneyland for Chinese tourists. They can go to the Palace museum to see all the treasures ““stolen”” from China. And revel in the original mandarin writing everywhere. And try some food from all over China in a small island.
Pretty cool really for Chinese tourists. Especially a bit further down the line when they are given more freedoms and there are daily flights all over the place from Chinese cities to / from Taiwan.
And if these tourists are being carefully screened and represent the vanguard of the proletariat , aren’t they gonna be a little disappointed? I mean these people ain’t gonna hike or see Taiwan’s beauty that you have to search to find. They will see the mainstream attractions and the grime/grittiness of the cities. If the people coming are the international, well travelled elite, won’ t they be a little hard to please. I remember the Japanese tourists complaining about the dirtiness down south when they were brought over on some tour. Wouldn’t it be a better strategy to try and attract the lower middle classes?[/quote]
Have you ever travelled in China? No, I don’t think Chinese tourists will be disappointed. Most Chinese attractions are grossly over-rated and have no trouble pulling in the middle class. I honestly do hope that that there will be a lot of complaints about pollution and grime and what not. The shame would certainly propell the gov into tackling these issues seriously. Sad to say but most Chinese mid-sized cities are far more well laid out and “asthetic” than those in Taiwan. Another KMT legacy for you ac.[/quote]
Only Yunnan (for about 3 weeks), but I found the infrastructure in Dali, Lijiang, Kunming etc. to be better than in a lot of places in Taiwan. I think Taiwan has a lot of gems, but they aren’t necessarily the ones that are shown in planned tours. I think if the Chinese government only sends over their international and well-behaved people (,many of these people have been educated overseas and have worked in US and Europe), they might be disappointed in some respects. A strategy aimed at middle class people would be better. The people that go see replicas of the Eiffel Tower in China cuz they don’t want to leave the country. I think these people would be happy to go to Taiwan. Sort of the like Costa del Sol as a place for working class Brits.[/quote]
Well, elite is pushing it a bit if you saw the TV news the other day of the Chinese tourists smoking in a non-smoking restaurant and leaving butts and garbage everywhere.
I don’t think I ever said they were sending the elite, in any case. They are more likely a mix, but the requirements were that one had overseas travel experience. This is not out of bounds for the Chinese middle class now so there is no reason to think most tourists are extremely wealthy or educated, let alone educated overseas.
The “elite” may find some parts of Taiwan disappointing but others not. Imagine their shock when they visit the Palace Museum and realize that all those Forbidden City artifacts they saw are all 5th rate copies.
[quote=“ac_dropout”] Off shore banking for grey market PRC businesses…etc.
So if I answered the TVBS poll as “Chinese and Taiwanese,” would I be incorrect in stating in f.com I’m an average Taiwanese?
These are the views of the average Taiwanese.[/quote]
These are the views of the average AC.
Off shore banking for grey market PRC business. what the fuck do you think casino’s are for. Thats why I am now working with casino operators to broadcast poker and baccarat gaming channels. Targeted at… China and Taiwan.
You are not the average Taianese.the average Taiwanese doe not live abroad most of their lives.
Maybe you can claim to be an average Taiwanese American… but an average Taiwanese, I meet that description for more than you do.
Try living here for 10 years without leaving, then maybe you can be an average Taiwanese.
Satellite TV,
Even for CNY the average Taiwanese will travel abroad these days.
Even average Taiwanese students travel aboard during the summer.
There are average Taiwanese in the DPP that lived in exile longer than I’ve been aboard and then went back to Taiwan to take up position in CSB administration.
You must have a pretty low opinion of the average Taiwanese.
^ AC still saying stuff only the average AC would say. Yep. No surprise there. There might as well be a country called AC and only AC would live there. 
[quote=“Muzha Man”]
Well, elite is pushing it a bit if you saw the TV news the other day of the Chinese tourists smoking in a non-smoking restaurant and leaving butts and garbage everywhere. [/quote]
My Grandpa mentioned that yesterday morning when I asked him about the tourists. Definitely a deep sigh and shaking of the head worthy response for hearing that news.
On a side note, my Dad and I both noticed the shinier than usual floors in the airport. Also, a lot of touristic signs everywhere welcoming people… An obvious sign of keeping up an image.
Seems the biggest problem may be chinese tourists ““escaping”” from their groups?? But it will be sad if they have to be kept like prisoners tho??? I think let the few escape but dont make the tour into a prisoners tour.
You know, putting these tour groups up in Banqiao isn’t going to help the astonishly widely held belief in China that Taiwan is a very poor place.
“Uncles from the PLA, quick, go liberate our distressed little friends in Taiwan!”
HG
[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]You know, putting these tour groups up in Banqiao isn’t going to help the astonishly widely held belief in China that Taiwan is a very poor place.
“Uncles from the PLA, quick, go liberate our distressed little friends in Taiwan!”
HG[/quote]
This is my new avatar!