You think that the Filippinas are not aware of the risks of abuse here and elsewhere? They know full well and clearly have decided it to be an acceptable risk. Not that abuse is a good thing, but the workers come here with their eyes open to the fact that they could be treated less than fairly. This is not a big, dark secret.
Excellent point.
To all you good folks who continue to believe that all the foreign workers who are abused continue to come here with blinders on, where is the proof that is true?
Some people have pointed out, rightly so, that some of the people who are willing to come to Taiwan and work as domestic help were educated people in their own lands. So, how is it that these same educated and intelligent people have no idea what may await them in Taiwan? It’s not possible for them not to have a clue.
Far more likely is that they know but the rewards far outweigh the risks. Since there is a chance that they may be abused, they are willing to take the chance in order to earn more money. It is the same reason some folks are willing to try to hide in a truck in Mexico and risk being suffocated in the searing heat or why some folks, like some Chinese girls in Canada, try to hide underneath a truck that was heading for the USA.
Money. Pure and simple.
As long as there is more money to be made somewhere else, people are willing to do many things they may normally not do.
Sorry Iron Lady that I misspelled “gig”–must have something to do with the fact that English is my 3rd language. You know nothing about what causes I support or don’t support and unlike Paul I’m not one to run through my academic credentials and credentials as a caring human being. Think about that as you ride the bus.
[quote]The whole point is that you, dan, evidently sit on your petuckus and don’t do much about problems that exist in society, if you even know they exist. Paul does something. Perhaps both are wrong, but I’d rather be wrong Paul’s way than your way. Better to get points for trying than to be condemned (rightly) for doing nothing.
[/quote]
I know for an absolute fact that the things I do for the causes I support have very real benefits for the recipients, although you’ll seldom see it on the news.
All Paul succeeded in doing was to make himself look like a stupid drunk arsehole.
I know whose way I prefer.
i never posted much lately cause i been busier
so basically we have a situation on our hands
paul fought for someone who could not fight for themselves, this outshines all this other drama
paul punched a cop while he was being shoved around, i looked at his picture, he doesnt appear to be a goon, or appear to be a seasoned fighter
anyone thats ever been in a fight knows its not a board game risk where you have a lot of time to calculate each move, ive seen people get pushed, turn around swinging and hit a girl, shit happens, im not mad
i think its bullshit to say a filipina maid should be ready to except the fact she will not be gived food to eat, yes im sure when she started her position she was informed of this, how about i eat your food
keep fighting for those who can’t fight for themselves
It’s a strange part of human nature but a fight is actually a bonding experience. So Paul and the Cops feel a “bond” after the altercation. Nowt queer as folk.
What are you talking about here? I can’t understand a friggin’ thing that’s going on here anymore. What confuses me is that everyone (even Ironlady, unless I’m mistaken) thinks that Paul went about this the wrong way. This would have to be because there are other ways to deal with this type of problem that are better. This seems obvious, except that Paul has said he would do it again and that, actually, it was a great way to meet people and make new friends.
It appears more than anything that we’re breaking up into two camps of ‘cultural intervention’. On the one hand, we have the Richard Harztell-style which involves learning the local language and laws, as well as how to deal with difficult situations without alienating local citizens and officials. Subsequently, Richard is not well-know outside of a group of long-term foreign residents. He is certainly not the sort of person that your local Taiwanese friends will ask about, if only because they too have never heard of him.
On the other hand, there is Paul’s style; with no knowledge of local customs or language, when a problem arises, don’t look for a legal way to handle it. Instead, go down to the nearest police station and get into a fight that instantly makes you known to everyone who has a TV.
Personally, I ascribe to Richard’s style, but that’s not for any moral reason. It’s because I believe that hitting policemen and crying on TV are not effective lobbying tools in the ROC. There are places where antics like this are effective, but Taoyuan and Taiwan are not among them.
I may be wrong. History may show me the error of my ways, but I am waiting. But even having waited this far, I see every reason to believe that this is one of those things, like the race riots at the Pig & Whistle, that by next year will have made no difference to anyone. The maid whose plight was the cause of all this has been virtually forgotten. Does anybody care what happened to her? Or even know? Was her situation so hopeless that nothing could have done for her, and all you could hope for was conciousness raising? If Paul’s initial motives were to get help for her, surely the fact that nothing has changed for her situation should indicate that he should have done something differently. But that’s not how it seems Paul feels, as he had this to say on the matter,
[quote]
- I was trying to help someone who I thought was in trouble.
- Yes, I probably went about it the wrong way.
3)) I should not have pushed a police officer. - But with very few exceptions I would do the same thing tomorrow. [/quote]
You gotta ask yourself, what was he trying to do? If his morives were get on TV or make himself a flash-in-the-pan celebrity or even to vent some anger at Taiwan, his method was successful. If his goal was to help the maid downstairs, he has been a misreable failure. The most we can say is that if he was merely using the maid downstairs as a prop to raise conciousness about the plight of Philipino workers in Taiwan, I doubt this will be an effective method–but I may be wrong. And that’s the most anyone can say.
All the rhetoric aside, I just don’t get it; Paul’s approach didn’t work. There are people on this site who have been responsible for legal change in Taiwan, so everyone here knows that it’s not impossible. Just admit that it was the wrong way to go about things here.
Draw a distinction, also, folks, between overseas workers who come to Taiwan for the rewards because they want MORE money (i.e., white English teachers, although I suppose some are unemployable in their home countries as well 
) and overseas workers who pay a hefty contract fee to an agent and come here because if they do not, their children will not be able to attend school or their families will not live with dignity.
Saying Filipina maids “accept” these conditions is laughable. They risk it for the sake of their families’ welfare, not for making a few extra dollars to buy a PlayStation.
Terry, in many ways i agree with you, but at the end of thae day they still had a CHOICE, maybe it was a shitty choice, but no one put a gun to their head and forced them to come.
As to the question of money, it applies to both cases you mentioned, most people come here because they and therefore their families will be better off financially.
Whilst abuse etc should never be tolerated, until the economies of countries like Philippines, Indonesia etc can give all their people a sensible standard of living then people will continue to work abroad.
If you think Taiwan is bad, then go to the Middle East and see how they are treated there.
Mr He, that is true, but most of Richards efforts have been trying to help the foreign spouses of Taiwan citizens, rather than human rights etc in general.
Not that we are short on issues…
The Phillipinoes problems here are worse than ours, but well… We have richard, they have the Church.
tinman…when you said “On the other hand, there is Paul’s style; with no knowledge of local customs or language, when a problem arises, don’t look for a legal way to handle it. Instead, go down to the nearest police station and get into a fight that instantly makes you known to everyone who has a TV” I must totally agree but I think you forgot to mention…it also makes you look like a barbaric foreigner and a total fool. 
Yes, Ironlady you have a valid point …“overseas workers who pay a hefty contract fee to an agent and come here because if they do not, their children will not be able to attend school or their families will not live with dignity” are different from english teachers and others who come here…but they also have choices. Perhaps they should have exercised their right to make these choices a little earlier in life by not having so many children, by trying to get a good education in a field that is marketable in the West such as nursing, etc.
I don’t condone any form of abuse but as I, and others, have pointed out in previous posts - these workers are probably aware of what life is going to be like for the average live-in worker and are willing to take their chances.
If Paul really wants to help them, I still think he would be more successful by going to their home countries and warning people about “the most dangerous country I’ve ever lived in.”
Just for the record, I don’t own a playstation and didn’t come to Taiwan to save money to buy one. I did do some research before I moved here and I have friends here. I came here to learn something about Taiwan and to work. I am not working as a hobby or saving money for retirement. I am working to pay for my ‘bad’ choices I made before I left the U.S. called credit cards and student loans. We all have choices…yes, some are easier than others but they do exist.
[quote=“Vannyel”]
Yes, Ironlady you have a valid point …“overseas workers who pay a hefty contract fee to an agent and come here because if they do not, their children will not be able to attend school or their families will not live with dignity” are different from English teachers and others who come here…but they also have choices. Perhaps they should have exercised their right to make these choices a little earlier in life by not having so many children, by trying to get a good education in a field that is marketable in the West such as nursing, etc.[/quote]
Sheesh, Vannyel, this isn’t even worth answering. Oh, having fewer children (in a Catholic country) and getting a “better” education (many of these maids are college grads, the same as the average English teacher) is the answer. NOT! Check out your history, and look at how the local economy “works” (or doesn’t) in nations that rely heavily on remittances, like the Philippines and the Dominican Republic, to give two examples.
When there is no economy in your native country, you have darn few choices if you want to eat regularly and provide a few chances for your children to do better in life.
Your credit card bills were incurred because you wanted things you didn’t have the cash for. Not quite the same level of choice. And, using your logic, you should have chosen a cheaper country to do your college education in, then you wouldn’t have those loans. How irresponsible of you!
Ironlady, I have the same problem with Vannyel. I have this nagging feeling that his support is like being shot in the foot before a marathon.
I agree that it’s not correct to compare English teachers and Philipino maids. My point is that Paul’s method of ‘assistance’ is a waste of time no matter how you feel. It hasn’t helped anyone it was intended to help. In fact, even an informed Taiwanese still won’t know what his problem was the day he got arrested. Am I wrong in suspecting that the only people who know the whole story and understand his motivations are the people reading this website?
I know what Paul was trying to do, but I still don’t know what he was supposed to have accomplished.
I can see noone else been run over, or had their arm nearly ripped off why a police was watching then “didn’t see anything” Either that, or you have no problems in Taiwan and are fluent in every language and the police always try their hardest to help you
I have a scar on my hand which I will see everyday of my life (if it’s in Taiwan, won’t be too long, hopefully) to remind me of them.
I could never hurt another human being, even if my life depended on it. But I would happily beat the crap out of, and worse, a “policeman”. There used to times when I was afraid I would.
Ironlady, you are totally right — it was irresponsible of me to incur credit card debt…instead of burying my father, I should left him on his bed in his trailer to rot.
As for not having children, well let’s see how many do I have? Using your logic, being raised in a very religious family with a mother who had six children I should at least have as many kids, right?
The college education thing…I couldn’t afford to leave the country to find a cheaper college so I stayed home and did the best I could do.
I have seen many advertizements for maids, teachers, etc. in the papers, so I still ask why these highly educated people come to Taiwan to be live-in workers when they can apply for jobs in Canada and Australia - where they might have a better chance.
Yes, my thinking is naive and simplistic. I am not familar with the history of their homelands but I know that the root of a problem needs to be addressed just as much as the end results. You don’t take medicine for high blood pressure without changing your lifestyle. One without the other only means a slower death. But obviously I am in the minority as far as this line of reasoning goes.
BFM…I am sorry. I know I have been here only two years but I have only been ‘involved’ with the cops once. They stopped me to make sure the new scooter I was driving was mine. I was polite, they spoke English. They called in my registration (in my friend’s name) and when I told them where he lived…the cop said, “have a nice night” and I said the same and drove off. Maybe tomorrow I will have some trouble with the cops. But I am curious now, did they just pick up off the street to harass? Should I turn around and go the other way every time I see a cop? Please tell more so I will know how to avoid being scarred forever. :s
[quote=“Vannyel”]
The college education thing…I couldn’t afford to leave the country to find a cheaper college so I stayed home and did the best I could do.[/quote]
No, you obviously should have made some arrangement with an agent from a foreign country so that you could pledge a hefty percentage of your future wages to get out of your country and go to a cheaper college.
Why not ask some of them? Oh, I forgot – I guess you haven’t ever actually talked to any. Try it sometime–I mean a real conversation, not just pleasantries while throwing out the garbage. You might find it enlightening.
Well obviously my common sense works a little differently…I would never pay an agent a hefty fee to arrange for me to go somewhere else to school or work. But then again, I forgot, I didn’t have the money to pay a fee even if I wanted to.
Just as I don’t walk into an office building and strike up random conversations with the workers, I don’t stop and try to chat with maids in the park either…they are either too busy talking to each other or doing their jobs. Of course if I find one chained to a tree then I will stop and see if I can help
Yes, but what you DID have was a mechanism that allowed you to get an education, with or without money. You didn’t HAVE to mortgage your future to a shark agent. Student loans are provided at extremely favorable terms, including grace periods, low interest rates, reductions in interest rates for electronic or long-term on-time payment, etc. etc.
There is currently, to my knowledge, no mechanism that allows people to live with dignity in the Phillipines or the Dominican Republic without money. No low-interest loans, no grace periods. If you owe, you are thrown out of your home or you or your family members are “talked to”.
I’d overlooked the obvious fact that you would never be in a place frequented by that sort during your leisure hours, therefore you’d never meet them to have a conversation without bothering them during work hours. Your loss (and the board’s, judging from the sort of words you’ve been putting in the mouths of the OCWs).
Everybody is blasting Paul here. WTF! While most of you guys are contend sitting in front of the telly playing with your balls and ignore the wrongs in the world, this guy went out and actually did something. Well, he overreacted a bit and sure as hell is paying the price, but who can blame him? Sometimes I feel like punching people too for how ignorant and stupid they are.
Anyway, Paul, I think you have guts and the heart in the right place. Nevermind the self-rightous jerks on this board. Hope everything works out for you in the end.