I’ve never said anything bad about him personally, except that he showed a liberal amount of indiscretion. My point is that I know what he was trying to do. What is it that he was supposed to have accomplished?
More than most others seem to try.
People can talk about Mr. Clark and his actions all they want. For me, it comes down to two things. When trying to change things for the better does one try to institute change from within the existing system or from the outside. The answer, of course, depends on the circumstances.
Ironlady, while you make great rhetoric, you don’t answer the question. As I pointed out earlier, the maid’s life hasn’t changed, Taiwanese people aren’t more informed, and Paul’s action did not raise any conciousness among the Whities. I can understand Paul’s anger with a system in which he feels powerless, but there are people on this site whose actions have resulted in change. It appears that Paul’s actions were taken out of ignorance of how to create that change, not out of having eliminated all other options. In fact, it is my understanding that he at no time tried to contact MECO or any of the Church-based advocacy organizations that have established records of helping troubled Filipino workers. Paul is a good man with moral intentions, but what he did accomplished nothing. It was absolutely the wrong way to go about doing this.
You are all assuming that Paul uses this sort of action as a systematic way of going about his agenda, which is to improve the lot of Filipino workers in Taiwan.
I see nothing to indicate this from any of his posts.
He has said time and time again that he himself does not feel this was the best way to go about things. People are not 100% in top form at all times; they make mistakes.
What I am saying is that most of the people who have been on this thread for the past few weeks condemning what Paul did both a) do not understand the above, and b) do absolutely nothing themselves to try to change much in this world, if indeed they realize such conditions exist in Taiwan, a “democratic” country.
I am not attempting to use rhetoric to defend the exact actions Paul took in this case. I am, however, saying that at least he has an active social conscience, which is something that the vast majority of those living on this island as expats lack. An active one, not just an armchair idea.
I don’t think anyone doubts that Paul had good intentions when he went in to the police station. The negative attitude he’s experiencing now developed gradually following a series of posts he made defending his actions making it clear that he had and continues to have no idea what he’s doing. He has even stated that he agrees that what he did was stupid, but he would still do it again.
[quote]1) I was trying to help someone who I thought was in trouble.
2) Yes, I probably went about it the wrong way.
3)) I should not have pushed a police officer.
4) But with very few exceptions I would do the same thing tomorrow. [/quote]
Ironlady, if he were doing anything other than attempting to do something that you also feel strongly about, would you be supporting him in the way you are?
What things that fall under this type of affair would I NOT feel strongly about? Are you saying that if it were, say, Thai workers, instead of Filipinos, that I shouldn’t or wouldn’t care, just because I don’t personally happen to have any friends who are Thai? Or the handicapped, or women in Taiwan, or whomever? Or even trying to get Taiwan to live up to laws it already has on the books?
What would people’s opinions be had a Taiwanese person done precisely the same thing? (Unlikely though that might be…)
A thinking person WOULD feel strongly about any case where a party with greater economic or other power is systematically abusing a weaker party.
You are constantly trying to get me to say I think he should burst into all the police stations on this island swinging. I have never said that, and neither has Paul. You should be experienced enough to know that saying “I would do it again tomorrow” doesn’t necessarily mean one will go out and try to do it, but only means that one doesn’t regret what one did.
I suppose you would feel strongly enough about all the cases you gave to justify a foreigner with no local language knowledge bursting into a police station carrying a camcorder making some sort of demand from the local police. Honestly, this was idiocy and bound from the start to fail in doing anything except getting him arrested. If someone demanding something you didn’t feel so strongly about (for example, an investigation into the Pig & Whistle fight), would you still be supporting them? The lunacy of his action is beyond my understanding.
We all seem to agree that he’s a standup guy. We all agree that Filipinos have it rough in Taiwan. What I think few people here agree with is what Paul’s been saying since we all came to agree on this. It
What Mr Clark was trying to do was commendable. The way he went bout it wasnt’.
I watched the broadcast on one of the news channels. He could have been a lot more subtle and accomplished a lot more by bringing someone with him as a translator and by having a complaint written in Chinese.
He got a bit of a beating but worse still is he may be deported. In Singapore an unruly Italian drunk assaulting the police was shot in the leg. He could have died but didnt. He also got a free vacation in Jail.
I have lived in Singapore and Brunei and had housekeepers. They much prefer working for westerners who actually give them days off… give them more than their actuall contract pay and even take them on holidays or give them a ticket home for their own holidays. I certainly did.
Unfortunatley the lives of the housekeepers here is not good. Other countries are also bad. Try to help without being interfering. Up here in the mountains there are a number of Indonesian workers who are suposed to be housekeepers but work in shops and markets.
Should I call the police? NOT. These people also need these jobs to send money home to their families. If they get deported then what will they do?
[quote=“Paulclark”]There is no Philippine trade office in Taiwan. Taiwan doesn’t want one and won’t allow one to avoid listening to just this kind of complaint.
THERE IS an office here for dealing with abused maid as well as runaways.
You don’t realize that you have a passport to safety. Different regulations apply to you; different attitudes apply to you.
I have a green ROC passport only… I’m white but where am I going to run to?
In fact the United States has (even before 9/11) held anyone changing planes in the country on their way to another county under house arrest. The have also always held the passports of any traveler that comes from a country that they don’t like until they reach their destination.
Funny thats never happened to me. And they don’t hold your passports until you reach your final destination. You are either enter the USA or are detained and your passport given to you when you are placed on a plane out of the USA.
Sorry if all this upsets your sense of natural justice in the universe but it just doesn’t exist.
Natural Justice is a MYTH.
[quote=“Paulclark”]Has anyone ever tried to do anything at MECO. I have been trying for a year to get my wife and children (who are all Canadian citizens now) a residency permit but because my marriage certificate comes from the Philippines they told us we had to fly to Manila to the Taiwan Embassy there (because we might have made the marriage certificate ourselves).
You didnt have to fly to Manila. Another person could have done it for you by proxy if you are not in the Philippines. I setup and company and got my work and residency permits for the Philipines even though I was living in Taiwan.
No foreign embassy will accept as valid documents from fraud happy Philippines. All documents have to be verified as being genuine and are check with records held by the issueing institution…
I had to get my documents notarized in Australia, Translated, notorized at the TECO off in Canberra and then re-notarized by MOFA in Taipe for my ROC citizenship application. If I aply to immigrate to Canada I would also have to supply a required set of documents. Also had to be finger printed for my Police Record Check. woop woop
It’s part of life… stop moaning about it. Everybody goes thru it. Your not so special to be exempt from it. What do you think people migrating to USA NZ Canada Australia go thru… more than you.
[quote=“Mr He”]
This issue is totally amazing. It took nearly three hours to read all 20 pages.
My feelings about Mr Clark are:
- Good lad, get stuck in. Apathy is a common disease. :bravo:
- Like everyone else said: Dont punch a cop dummy. I can’t believe that all cops here are corrupt. But why play with fire?
- Dont be upset by those who mock you, but try to understand WHY they are knocking your actions. They would have given Jesus a hard time too!
Feelings generated about myself.
- I watch our maid get treated unfairly at times and do nothing cos my own position in the family isnt high enough to get involved. But maybe, just maybe there is more to the situation than i can see with my eyes.
- People like Mr Clark have the courage to do ‘extraordinary’ things, and I dont.
- Im a bit of an observer at times, and i feel a wee bit embarrased of that fact, though I wouldnt want to become a crusader of ‘injustice’.
To many Forumosans who have posted on this issue, It is good to see some people finally getting stuck in to a proper debate. Too often people offer pithy replies, or dance around each other building up Guanxi. But Mr Clarks’ issue has made some of you show your true colours. Sandman for example usually offers some advice wrapped in sillyness. But here I really get a better understanding of who he is.
I think Paul Clark may well leave here and take another beating elsewhere, but it’s his effect on people that must be commended. He got the issue into peoples minds, and he got you lot to shake your brains and think about what you truly feel.
No-one deserves to be beaten by the police. The police must mis-understand the nature of their work if they think its ok to go to town on someone’s body. Even when their actions seem as weird as Mr Clarks had appeared to be. I get students punching me occasionally because they are upset. Can I take them out back and wail on their bodies with a phone book? Show some restraint, even if those around you arent doing so.
My Taiwanese family have said they beieve that you can buy a ersons death here. And as to Taiwan being not scary: The are many horror stories of scooter gangs in Taichung who will push you from your moving bike, then rob your comatose body. And dont piss off the wrong guy in Lion King, or you will find yourself in BIG trouble.
Hi, this is Paul. Wow. This has really turned into a meandering discussion that at times focus on the exact same things that I do; that is: the plight of foreign workers (skilled workers aside). For some of the others I feel like I’m missing my hood at a Ku Klux Klan meeting. There seems to be no understanding at all.
And why are we still talking about me?
For those of you that lost the original thread I will briefly repeat. A maid was being abused in out building so I called the police. When they found out the call was for a “domestic worker” they laughed and they said they would do nothing so I went to the police station to fill out a report and they told me three times on three different days that I could not. that I could not (as it turns out you can because I spent five hours filling one out…later). So I took a camcorder to the police station because I wanted them to say on tape that they would not fill out a form. I don’t think there’s a law against this either but I’m not sure. Anyway it ended up with me getting beaten by the police arrested and sent to jail. Some say I deserved it; some say I didn’t. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time.
To respond to tinman I don’t know if the maid’s life is better because on Sunday she ran away in terror from her employer and hasn’t been heard of since. I hope she’s all right.
I don’t know this just keeps going and going. It seems to me that we should start two different discussion groups; one on the plight of the workers and the others on why they get what they deserve. But then, I guess there would be no drama.
Most Sincerely,
Paul
Ooop. Yes. Also pushed a policeman. That was a bad idea I do not recommend
Paul,
I got the impression that you came to this community after your problem started, and since then your participation has only been in threads pertaining to… you, and the issue you raised on the day you charged into the police station - fair enough.
Beyond the world of Paul Clark, and beyond the truly difficult situation faced by many domestic helpers in Taiwan, you will find more than 150,000 postings on a huge vareity of topics, expressing an astouding array of opinions, from the extremely well thought out and articulated to way out ramblings, to offensive in your face flames, to trolling. That’s the forumosa community, which you joined, in your time of need.
If you take the time to poke around a bit you’ll find that lots of threads ramble on and on, and flow in unexpected courses, and result in some bitter arugments. The Paul Clark threads are not at all unusual.
Also, if you took the time to “get to know” this community you’d also realize that a lot of the regular visitors here are people who have made lives for themselves in the ROC, or who grew up here. They know the language (you’d be surprised how many forumosans are fluent Mandarin speakers), understand the culture, are married to locals, and were aware of the plight of guest workers, of the non white collar, or teacher/student variety, before you punched the cop. I don’t think it’s that strange that a lot of people have focused on you and how you handled this particular incident, because the story of the maid in your building is not breaking news, for many of us. (A Canadian assaulting a police officer, is)
Read some more in the archives of forumosa and you’ll see that a lot of things happen in Taiwan, to the more “priviliged” foreigners too. They get attacked for being outsiders, they get threatened and cheated, and taken advantage of by unscrupulous employers and avaracious agents, too (and no, I’m not directly equating the experiences of westerners, and SE asian workers). And they have their own legal issues, work problems, and experiences with discrimmination. Many forumosans have a long established voice in this community on issues ranging from social injustice, racism, sexism, violence against women, and racially motivated acts of violence. (And other forumosans are infamous cynics, or ultra conservative in their world views)
I guess what I’m trying to say is… there’s A LOT going on here beyond your problems, and issues close to your heart. Yes, some people passionatley share your sense of injustice about this poor maid, and the situation that many SE asian workers face, in general (although they are Taiwan savvy enough to seek Taiwan appropriate solutions), some people passively share your sense of outrage, some people are busy trying to keep their own selves afloat far away from home, and some people just don’t give a toss. This is a diverse community. Many of us find you to be a bit of a self absorbed jackass, and others are rooting for you. Just deal with it, and don’t be so shocked that not everyone on this forum wants to join you in your next assault on a police station, or to share a bamboo cage and a diet of grubs with you on your next Mindanao hostage rescue mission. You seem to be an activist, Paul, and all power to you, but even back home in Canada, how many people are really as “commited” as you are? The forumosa community is just a cyber reflection of the “real world”.
Anyway, I’ve rambled on, sorry for that. But one last thing, good people in this community on occasion post replys on the fly, when they are busy at work, tired, or have had a bad day, again a careful visit around this site should show you this, so perhaps the words they write read harsher, and perhaps even a lot harsher than what they are really thinking. I guess what I mean is, don’t take offense too quickly, and make some allowance for the fact that some people just chip in with “humor”, or sarcasm, and not a lot more, but they’re not ill intentioned.
Again, I personally hold no ill will towards you at all, and wish you and your family all the best. I might not agree with how you handled this situation, or appreciate some of the attitudes that you have expressed in the long discussion of the Paul Clark affair, but my sense is that you are fundamentally a good guy, who has probably (hopefully) learned some valuable lessons from this ordeal.
[quote=“mwalimu”]Paul,
I got the impression that you came to this community after your problem started, and since then your participation has only been in threads pertaining to… you, and the issue you raised on the day you charged into the police station - fair enough.
Beyone the world of Paul Clark, and beyond the truly difficult situation faced by many domestic helpers in Taiwan, you will find more than 150,000 postings on a huge vareity of topics, expressing an astouding array of opinions, from the extremely well thought out and articulated to way out ramblings, to offensive in your face flames, to trolling. That’s the forumosa community, which you joined, in your time of need.
…
Also, if you took the time to “get to know” this community you’d also realize that a lot of the regular visitors here are people who have made lives for themselves in the ROC, or who grew up here. They know the language (you’d be surprised how many forumosans are fluent Mandarin speakers), understand the culture, are married to locals, and were aware of the plight of guest workers, of the non white collar, or teacher/student variety, before you punched the cop. I don’t think it’s that strange that a lot of people have focused on you and how you handled this particular incident, because the story of the maid in your building is not breaking news, for many of us. (A Canadian assaulting a police officer, is…)
[/quote]
Number one, mwalimu, with a grand 80 posts under your belt, don’t go telling off people who comment – NEUTRALLY – as Paul did about this thread and the nature of the forum. His point was merely that he was surprised at the discussion that had come out of his post and this affair. He has offended no Forumosa norms or rules in so doing, nor was he being critical of the direction in which things were going.
Number two, people were calling on Paul to post his side of the story. Why then would you expect him to “take the time to get to know” the community by lurking for a couple of months before posting?
Patterson, I approve heartily of your post. Very nicely put. And If Paul’s actions have done nothing more than to make you look at life in a different way, then I think they were worthwhile.
My thoughts exactly. Well said. :bravo:
One post, 80, 1600, or 5000+, doesn’t matter – most of the posts I’ve seen from mwalimu are pretty good ones. Quality, not quantity, is what matters.
Whoa! Terry (and Paul) my apologies if you have taken the tone of my last posting as an attempt at a “telling off”. I was just trying to point out to Paul, Terry, that he wasn’t being singled out here, and that “spirited debate” seems to be the norm here on forumosa. Additionally, I wasn’t trying to tell off or attack Paul by suggesting that there are lots of issues going on in the lives of people who post here, as evidenced by the humongous variety of threads, and that not everyone would react sympathetically towads Paul’s actions. My point was more along the lines of - get to know the community and you’ll understand more where people are coming from. At very least, please undestand that my “tone of voice” wasn’t meant to be snippy or dismissive.
Okay, now, as for the “a grand 80 posts under your belt”, part… 
(heavy intake of breath… girding loins in preperation to respond to nonsense against better judgement…)
Apparently you joined Forumosa in Nov. 2001, Terry. I joined in April 2002. Yeah you’re right, that makes me such a newbie. Since then, I’ve posted under the name Christos, Mwalimu, and now mwalimu. As Christos I wrote about a racially motivated attempted murder I was witness to, and under the user name Mwalimu, I was there , with many other long time forumosans, to trade body blows with the likes of ABCguy24, and to suggest to you, dear Terry, that looking for private students by smiling at people in McDonald’s wasn’t, shall we say, the best way to go about things, in this thread: [Forumosa - Taiwan's largest and most active Taiwan-oriented global online community in English … t=privates](How can I get privates? (students, that is!)
(and to this day I can’t believe that ironlady PhD., actually suggested that! 
)
So, you’re right, you are the famous ironlady ( 
), and some of my early postings got lost in the sauce, and I’ve had my long lapses of active particpation, and hell, I don’t even live in Taiwan anymore, but I think I have a sense of this community, and a reasonably accurate idea of it’s “norms”. And, most importantly I think I know Taiwan as well as most of us. So, give me a break 
If you look at my meager “corpus of writings” on this site, I think you’ll find that I’m not about gratuitous dogging or sarcasm.