[quote=“Mick”]
Any ideas why they were criticizing Ma for attending a wedding on the 7th, before the typhoon even got here?
Taiwan president under fire over typhoon response
Trying to establish a pattern of behavior. He didn’t focus exclusively on the typhoon before it hit, instead seeking photo ops at the wedding. And after the typhoon his focus has been much the same
[quote=“Mick”]
Any ideas why they were criticizing Ma for attending a wedding on the 7th, before the typhoon even got here?
Taiwan president under fire over typhoon response
Me? None at all. Then again, I don’t read the Christian Scientist Monitor. :loco: Talk about a contradiction in terms right there…
[quote=“Mick”]
Any ideas why they were criticizing Ma for attending a wedding on the 7th, before the typhoon even got here?
Taiwan president under fire over typhoon response
The typhoon arrived on August 6th.
Typhoon whips Taiwan, Breaking News > Aug 7, 2009
[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“Mick”]
Any ideas why they were criticizing Ma for attending a wedding on the 7th, before the typhoon even got here?
Taiwan president under fire over typhoon response
Me? None at all. Then again, I don’t read the Christian Scientist Monitor. :loco: Talk about a contradiction in terms right there…[/quote]
Meh. You responded to this comment by DaisyHotKiss
I added the fact that Ma came under criticism for attending a wedding the day of the Typhoon (I can give you a dozen other sources if you dont like the one I provided purely to substantiate what I was saying, but the source is quite irrelevant to the point being made) .
TNT does feel it justifiable criticism as it was “Trying to establish a pattern of behavior”. You do not, which by extension, you also do not have a problem with the statement made by DaisyHotKiss?
From what I have read and heard of all this so far, It’s clear that the way this ‘event’ is being handled by the govt in a way no different than any other significant occurrence on this island…finger pointing, resignations, confusion, poor communication, unprofessional action, party blaming the other party for this and that…it’s all the same, a big fiasco. Other countries sometimes also falter in the initial response to natural disasters but they are quick to get themselves sorted and into proper action. Take Italy as an example (among others). If Italy has gotten (and gets) massive forest fires every summer, they know damn well that all fire fighting and rescue services should be on stby for the summer months EVERY YEAR, because hey, they’ve gotten fires every year, so why would this year be any different. Big fires or small fires, they are ready.
Now, this is what Taiwan just doesn’t get…were there typhoons last year? Yes The year before? Yes How about 9 years ago? Yes…and has there ever been a typhoon of the same effect as what we got with Morakot? Yes, 50 years ago…So this type of typhoon CAN strike Taiwan and inflict such damages…How do I know that? Well, it has happened before. So there is the problem in it’s entirety. If it has happened in the past, it will happen again. The Taiwanese way of ignoring a problem (or the possibility of) with full knowledge of it’s potential and probability will never cease to end up in situations like these…
Ma Ying-Jeou onced penned this saying in his “Ma’s book of words of wisdom”…fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on you again
[quote=“Mick”]
TNT does feel it justifiable criticism as it was “Trying to establish a pattern of behavior”. [/quote]
not necessarily
I am just offering a theory for the motivation of criticizing him for attending a wedding in the 7th
TNT/Mick
People will find a reason to criticize Ma because they are pissed.
Swimming when there is a national disaster is one thing, however trying to justify it as a ‘necessary’ personal leisure as President of the ROC while people are dying is a whole other matter entirely.
It just looks cold, heartless, selfish, and seems like a major asshole thing to try to justify in such a fashion.
It’s like someone saying “No you don’t get it, I don’t care if your child was drowning in the pool next to me, I totally had to finish my martini first.”
I didn’t say that I don’t feel it is justifiable criticism. I didn’t make a statement either way, so quit trying to put words into my mouth. Getting all butt-hurt because I scoff at your pick of news sources? Get over it.
I do think that some of these people whose briefs include disaster management, a key aspect of which is prevention and preparedness, were entirely too cavalier in their behavior on a day when it was already clear that a disaster was looming.
[quote=“redwagon”]
I didn’t say that I don’t feel it is justifiable criticism. I didn’t make a statement either way, so quit trying to put words into my mouth. [/quote]
I’m just trying to understand why you quoted something from daisyhotkiss, that seemed to make sense. Or at least had a point to it, she was saying why was there this criticism of people like Ma, who had a wedding appointment the night of the typhoon. To which you quoted, and went of on a tangent I couldn’t relate.
Some other posters have put forward an opinion, which I respect. But in particular, Im not sure what you were objecting to. Especially now, that in my efforts to understand you better, no matter what I say, I am putting words in your mouth, and in fact you have no statement either way. It begs the question, why were you quoting and objecting to the statement in the first place.
Not at all. See, this is how it works. I dont care or read that source. I have heard and read on occasion a particular fact, in this case, the criticism of Ma for attending a wedding. Since I dont feel like making unsubsansiated comments, I provide them with the first google hit I get, it was a courtesy for you, just sometimes, certain people get hung up on the details.
Use you noggin man, this may be our first chit chat on forumosa, but i am not impressed thus far. This was a one in 50 year event, and we have several typhoons a year quite often, many of which amount to nothing.
But from what I hear, there was drilling through the mountain that had may have contributed to a landslide, residents have complained that the drilling most likely loosened the topsoil. Also, perhaps gossip was that the construction company that got the bid, was a lot higher than competition and took longer than the competitors proposed time. Once again, opening the door to bribery, and who took kickbacks and so on.
You say “it was already clear that a disaster was looming” , not when Ma was at the wedding it was not.
Neither am I.
/chitchat
I have a question about the mud slide, has anyone seen any pictures about how that hill (hills?) looked like before they came down?
The reason to why I’m asking is because at some places on this island I have seen coconut plantations, and beetelnut plantations and if there was one of those on that hill that might be the reason to why it came down, they completely clear the hill so that nothing will take energy from the plantation (in my understanding). Leaving the earth open in those areas, hence the normal thicker growth that would keep the hill in place are gone. So anyways my question is could this have happened?
[quote=“Sean Su”]however trying to justify it as a ‘necessary’ personal leisure as President of the ROC while people are dying is a whole other matter entirely.
It just looks cold, heartless, selfish, and seems like a major asshole thing to try to justify in such a fashion.
It’s like someone saying “No you don’t get it, I don’t care if your child was drowning in the pool next to me, I totally had to finish my martini first.”[/quote]
Very well said.
[quote] Ma has vowed to investigate claims that dynamite blasting to carve a 15-kilometre (10-mile) channel from the Laonung River to the Tsengwen Dam caused erosion that endangered the valley village.
An official probe into the project was launched almost two weeks after the typhoon hit while the head of the Water Resources Agency has offered to resign in response to the villagers’ increasingly vocal protests.
“The mountains have been loosened after they were bombed for years day and night. Previously, we had never had such a disaster. Therefore we’ve good reason to believe that is to blame,” Aliao, chief of the nearby Mintzu village, told AFP. [/quote] Water project adds to Taiwan leader’s typhoon woes
This was a 21.2 billion Taiwan dollar project (huge!! loads of mullah to grease the wheels of motion) , started under DPP but accelerated by Ma when he came to power. I think it would be hard to definitively say drilling through the mountain and blasting non stop with dynamite caused the top soil to be loosened. But I imagine, those responsible for approving an environmental impact study are going to be put under the microscope, as well as the standard operating procedures of the company drilling and blasting the mountain.
[quote] Ma has vowed to investigate claims that dynamite blasting to carve a 15-kilometre (10-mile) channel from the Laonung River to the Tsengwen Dam caused erosion that endangered the valley village.
An official probe into the project was launched almost two weeks after the typhoon hit while the head of the Water Resources Agency has offered to resign in response to the villagers’ increasingly vocal protests.
"The mountains have been loosened after they were bombed for years day and night. Previously, we had never had such a disaster. Therefore we’ve good reason to believe that is to blame," Aliao, chief of the nearby Mintzu village, told AFP. Water project adds to Taiwan leader’s typhoon woes[/quote]
I’ve never had a car accident before either but when my cat died last week it was also a first so obviously my cat dying is the reason behind my car accident…
Got to love the logic used by some people… By the time the people behind the tunnel building has been cleared of the accusation it will be to late, they will always be blamed for this.
Check the papers and news. The project has been fined already for not following plan. They have had problems in that area for years with that reservoir and the newer blastings were just icing on the cake. If it has been picked up by foreign agencies, it is because the bruuhaha is gaining momentum. Heaven knows what kind of mistakes have not been uncovered.
I do believe man-made errors made this much worse of a disaster it already was, whether it was this reservoir project, the illegal logging/planting, wrong buildings, illegal digging in rivers, or all together. Nature deserves and demands respect.
Bit of counterattack here:
[quote]Tony Wang, spokesman for President Ma Ying-jeou, responded Friday to the grievance aired by the public over CNN reports on the delays in helping victims of Typhoon Morakot. The American cable news network published what it called an unscientific short vote on whether Ma should resign over the delays.
…
Similar but scientific polls conducted by domestic media showed that six out of every ten eligible voters in Taiwan want the president to stay. “CNN is a media known across the world,” Wang said. “We believe,” he added, “viewers will pass their own judgment on what it had reported and how.”
[/quote]
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2009/08/23/221687/Viewers-will.htm
In Chinese they are not that charitable:
http://udn.com/NEWS/NATIONAL/NATS4/5094217.shtml
I haven’t said much in this thread because it will take months before we actually know what happened (if we ever will). One thing is for sure, the people who died won’t come back, no matter how much time Ma will spend there trying to be in the photographs.
This was the first real test to Ma’s ability to be a commander, and everyone can see the results. Some may say they are very bad, others can say no one could do better, but still there are too many blunders to be forgotten. And, as usual, some lower ranked people will take the axe for now (but will probably be rewarded later). Somethings, however, will remain in people’s mind, like Ma surrounding himself of candidates instead of the local ellected officials, in a way of showing that he wasn’t there to do anything more than campaigning. If he was there really doing something, wasn’t it obvious that all the power levels should be represented, and not only the top ones? Why would Ma simply forget about the local officials, just because they are not KMT?
Another issue at hand is the handling of foreign aid, which is, at least, infortunate. Refusing all foreign aid (while presumably waiting for the OK from China or waiting for China to be the first one) is unheard of from developped countries. Let us remember than on the 921 earthquake, the first aid arrived the following night. While the typhoon is quite another matter in terms of what aid could be helpful, it is however strange that it would take more than 3 days for the first to arrive to Taiwan.
As for the help to local populations, it is clear that too many things failed (including ordering local chiefs to check websites while being hit by a typhoon). It is clear that Taiwan has been a place where business is above everything else, and only when disasters occur, people think about what is going on. Extensive use of mountain areas for agriculture is transforming them in time bombs, just waiting for a typhoon to come.
I personally think that had the typhoon hit Taipei with the same ammount of rain it hit the south, the response would be quite different. Probably, the president couldn’t have gone for a swim, the PM couldn’t have gone to do a haircut and so on. And probably most of their places would be surrounded by water, so they would take measures faster to avoid a disaster. But because it was in remote areas in the south, there was no need for much worries (as it seems). Raining 300mm in the first day was not enough to raise the allerts…
Fixed that for you. No need to thank me. All part of the service from the new and improved snadman-lite with anti-bacterial deep deep cleansing power. Power to GET THINGS WHITE!
sandman, even if they are the rulling party, candidates are not ellected officials who have the responsability to be there, in case the prez is doing actually something. By surrounding himself of people without the actual power to do things, Ma proved he was there for the photo, not for helping.
He’s a Taiwanese politician. Its what Taiwanese politicians DO. Whatever colour of underwear they favour. Your desperate attempts to paint this as somehow a “KMT” thing merely illustrates the depth of your ignorance of Taiwanese politics. That, or the extent to which your green blinkers have restricted your vision 