MikeN
I’m a little confused. I’m having a discussion with (I presume) a Moslem and you’re hitting me with Catholic theology?? By the way, if you’re applying “invincible ignorance” (some nasty people, not me, might apply that to Catholic beliefs, incidentally) to me, bear in mind you also should apply it to the Moslems. Maybe you think that supporting a Moslem is aiding a fellow believer in God or some such idea. Let me assure you, if you ever work in certain Islamic countries that take sharia seriously, you’ll find out pretty quickly how much interfaith religious beliefs are worth there and get to understand the word “dhimmi” real quickly.
The Christian population of the Middle East has been declining since the Islamic invasions of the formerly Christian areas there and there is a reason for that (and it is not because of the bare tolerance they experience there). I’m on the side of the religious minorities in Islamic countries having the basic human right to practise whatever religion they want without any restriction, including paying jizya (the religious tax for infidels). I think you should be supporting the guy who’s in favour of your rights and not the one who would abolish them because his “holy book” or hadiths would deny them. In any case, using the word “ignorance” is puzzling since the word pertains to knowledge or lack of it and we are talking about religious faith, aren’t we? If the word “ignorance” is not being used as a put down as your quote says then the word should not be used as it has connotations of exactly that.
And I reckon that Sleep is being a little disingenuous when he says that he wasn’t accusing me of ignorance, invincible or otherwise.
“It’s strange that so many people who have strong negative opinions about Islam don’t actually KNOW the religion can’t blame them though because we’re all victims of the same thing.”
It seemed to me that the insinuation was that I knew nothing about the religion and it is usually the first accusation that is routinely made against anyone criticising Islam. This happened when I was in Kuwait when the Kuwaitis (who had initiated the discussion knowing full well I was at a disadvantage as you can go to jail there for “insulting” read “arguing against” Islam) accused me of not knowing anything about it. In fairness, once I had told them about Haj, Umrah, the five pillars etc. they graciously accepted that I had done my research.
Okay, let me try to defend the points I was trying to make:
Conversion by the sword: while not used in all cases, is mandated by the following verse:
Koran sura 9:29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Surah 8:39 (or thereabouts) says, “Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.”
Surah 8:12 says, “God revealed his will to the angels, saying: “I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers!”
Surah 9:39 (or thereabouts) says, “If you do not go to war, He will punish you sternly, and will replace you by other men.”.
Now, as with all religions, these verses could just about be interpreted as not actually forcing anyone to convert at gunpoint (or sword point) but there is no doubt that they enjoin violence against infidels until they surrender. There are, as far as I know, no similar verses in other alleged “holy books” (there you go Sleep, I’m an equal-opportunity passive aggressive). And if another Moslem says they can be used to defend conversion by the sword I reckon you’ll have a hard time completely denying it.
And surprise, surprise, a lot of the history (not all but an awful lot) is about Islamic invasion of the Middle East, Spain, India and parts of Europe (the continent was only saved from the last attempt by the Turks in I think, 1688 because heavy rains bogged their artillery down). I understand that several of the hadiths of Bukhari also speak of Jihad as military contest. Yes, if an area –like Indonesia- went Islamic peacefully, fine and well, if not then the military option was exercised if practicable.
I do not deny that some Moslems did contribute to civilisation and that for a time the areas conquered by the Moslems were quite advanced. The Moslem conquests were at first extremely rapid. They conquered a lot of territory stunningly fast, territory that had been occupied by fairly culturally advanced pre-Islamic societies. This made for a very rich cultural cake (aided and abetted by the writings of the Greek Pagan thinkers and the knowledge gained from the Indians- which the Moslems rarely acknowledge). For a long time, those areas were not Islamised only controlled by the Sultans or Sheiks or whatever. However, once the areas became majority Moslem the rot set in. One group of thinkers, the Mutzalites did try to continue critical thinking but they were defeated by Al Ghazali who argued successfully that revelation should be paramount over reason. Ghazali denounced Aristotle, Socrates and other Greek writers as non-believers and condemned those who employed their methods and ideas as corrupters of Islam. Add to that there is no separation of State and Mosque and critical thinking (and leading on from it, scientific thinking) was doomed, as was any hope of progress in the Islamic world. The Moslems themselves today debate the reasons for stagnation though of course, they never, ever blame Islam and its conservative cast of mind.
The Status of women in Islam
Moslems often point out that according to what we know of Muhammed’s life the first convert to Islam was Khadija, his first wife. They talk of the great esteem that Islam holds women in. Well. Let’s see…
Al-Bukhari Volume 2, Book 24, Number 541:
On 'Id ul Fitr or 'Id ul Adha Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, “O people! Give alms.” Then he went towards the women and said. “O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women).” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is the reason for it?” He replied, “O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray.”
Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”
So, according to the above, Muhammed thought that women are deficient in intelligence, unclean when menstruating, mostly end up in Hell and lead man astray (men it appears are not expected to control themselves or take responsibility for their actions). There are also verses and hadiths where it is indicated that men may beat their wives (only lightly of course, so that’s all right then [sarcasm]) and wives are expected to be totally obedient. Oh yes and a man can divorce a woman with ease while, well you get the idea. This is great esteem for women? Pardon me if I disagree.
Sleep, you seem to be a nice guy in spite of the unpleasant religion you claim to follow. I suspect you focus on the nice things and ignore the nasties (as people often do in other beliefs I’m happy to say except for folks like the Christian Dominionists another bunch who freeze the blood in my veins but at least so far they are a minority - and I pray they remain so) so why not just believe in God and be a good person? But then I guess you worry that Allah the wise the compassionate, slow to anger etc. is gonna burn you in Hell forever. Sigh 
Look if God exists, he’s pure perfection which means he isn’t the ghastly torturer portrayed in the monotheistic religions so stop being manipulated by the hateful doctrines of people long dead.
.
ouch! how can we have a mature discussion with passive-agressive attacks like that? [/color]
[/color]
