[quote=“sleep depraved”]
and you are clearly ignoring the good. [/quote]
I don’t ignore the good in people, whatever their “faith”. I simply recognize that Islam has little good in and of itself. Muhammad, according to your own sources, was a warrior who tortured and killed and ordered his followers to do the same. Under Islamic law women are oppressed (trying living in Iran or Saudi Arabia), and minority faiths are persecuted.
I know that! Jaboney thinks I don’t. I guess you can join him in this delusion. The problem is, despite the small numbers of Muslims in groups like al-Qaida, JI, Hamas, etc., there are millions of Muslims who do believe that man-made law is an affront to God and that only God’s law, Sharia, can rule Muslims. A small percentage of those people are willing to kill and die to make it happen. The question becomes, as the Muslim populations of Europe and North America continue to swell, will Muslims begin demanding Sharia law? Some already are. In South Asia, in Kashmir and Jammu, they have effectively driven out the Hindus and implemented Sharia law over both provinces. The Aceh provience of Indonesia is now a Sharia state, as is northern Nigeria. As I said, I will resist both the peaceful and violent imposition of Sharia.
For some people it is. I wish it were true of everyone.
So you are admitting there are vile aspects of the religion? The Koran is supposed to be the word of God is it not? It is to be obeyed completely and utterly, not taken piecemeal, am I correct? If a true believer comes along and tells you that you are ignoring certain commands to kill as mandated by the alleged work of God what are you to say to him? Ayatollah Khomeini said, “To kill and to be killed for Allah is a Muslim’s greatest joy”
I’ve no doubt Muhammed or whoever wrote the Koran, put in plenty of good stuff. A conman can give the marks plenty of truthful information and hope before hitting them with the sting. Adolf Hitler went on and on about reducing unemployment and ensuring food and shelter to a desperate people hit very badly by the Great Depression. He didn’t say “Oh and by the way I’m going to exterminate Jews, Gypsies, gays etc. and then we’re all going to have a pointless war which is going to cost 50 million lives worldwide” (conservative estimate). Crafty old Uncle Adolf left that surprise for later.
Therefore there is no doubt plenty of exhortation to compassion, doing good to others etc along with for example “I am the messager of God and you have to obey me.” Then later on to that poor fool Abu Bakr. “Hey, I fancy your six-year old daughter and I want to marry her”. Poor Ayesha, poor Moslems who were left in a hopeless state of poverty long before the rise of the European Empires (though they didn’t help any)
Well’ I thought the point of religion was to obey whatever version of God it wants you to believe in. If you’re just following it for peace of mind that seems to me to come perilously close to saying that Marx was right and that “religion is the opium of the people”.
As I’ve posted in other forums I am aware that most Moslems are good people. But the only way they can be good people is by ignoring the ugly aspects of Islam. I’m glad they do and I’m sure the real God is pretty happy about it too but the fact is they are not obeying the Koran and Hadiths in their entirety. Now that doesn’t mean I want you to start strapping explosives on and finding some innocent civilians to blow up just so you can be theologically consistent. What I want you to do is to realise you don’t have to follow the teachings of a seventh century paedophile warlord. Just leave the damned cult and be a free good human being. Keep the good aspects of what ever culture you follow and if you’re living in the west (or even just in some relatively free non-Islamic country find another spirituality to live by. Me, I just pray, meditate and try to be the best that I can. These cult leaders do not deserve your loyalty and there is a danger that someday you’ll be persuaded by some fanatic to do some awful act because “You haven’t been a proper Moslem”.
It’s true I think, that any belief can be used to manipulate people. However, some are more useful than others. The British tried to use their brand of Christianity to help take over other countries. However, it was only with mixed results as Jesus Christ wasn’t an Englishman (“damned impertinence of the fellow”). However, Islam wants its followers to become as Arab as they can and this I think, gives a clue as to what Muhammed (or perhaps the Iraqi committee that wrote the Koran but that’s a whole other thread) was really aiming at.
And gee Sleep, do you really have to get me ticketed by the Christians? Unlike Uncle Adolf I don’t want to fight on two fronts at once. Man, maybe they have sold everything they have and given it all to the poor but that doesn’t mean they’re soft. Those boys don’t turn the other cheek…
[quote=“gao_bo_han”]LOL. I suggest you read Harris’ “The End of Faith”, which is where the quotes come from, not “Letter to a Christian Nation”, which does not address Islam at all. [/quote]Read it. And he makes it clear that while he thinks the West is at war with Islam, he’s at war with religion, period.
The Bible contains passages that are every bit as cruel and extreme as anything that can be found in the Koran:
“As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the Lord your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.”
– Deuteronomy 20:10-18
“If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
– Deuteronomy 22:28-29
If quoting the Koran proves a point, why doesn’t it prove the same point about the Bible? If we in the West are free to ignore some of the teachings of the Bible, on what grounds are we free to pick and choose which ones we’ll follow and which ones we’ll ignore?
Deuteronomy is the 5th book in the Old Testament.
I haven’t seen it used as an excuse and/or justification for rape, car bombing, IED’ing, using hostages as shields and beheading lately…have you?
Spook,
I notice all of your quotes are from the old testament. After the coming of Christ, the laws of the old testament no longer apply. If you want to drag Christianity into this argument, maybe you should start quoting the laws/rules that Christians live by. Take a look at the teachings of Christ and compare those to the teachings of Mohamed. I think you will find that Christianity teaches love for all, even those not of your faith.
Sorry. “‘Adam and Eve,’ not ‘Adam and Steve’”. You remember them… active politically, among other things, protesting at the funerals of gays soldiers. Real class. Lots of love there.
Then there’s those who justify the killing of abortion doctors with reference to the Bible.
And which yahoo was it that said Hurricane Katrina was God’s wrath for American immorality?
No religion is any better or worse than the practitioner wielding it.
I’m sorry J,
Where in the new testament are any of these actions condoned? Yes, there are wackos in every religion, but where in Christianity is any of this dictated?
I must apologize also Jaboney - is the above post meant to an answer to my query regarding the context of your use of the “Adam and Eve crowd” question?
[quote=“JMcNeill”]Spook,
I notice all of your quotes are from the old testament. After the coming of Christ, the laws of the old testament no longer apply. If you want to drag Christianity into this argument, maybe you should start quoting the laws/rules that Christians live by. Take a look at the teachings of Christ and compare those to the teachings of Mohamed. I think you will find that Christianity teaches love for all, even those not of your faith.[/quote]
Fundamentalist Christians and Jews don’t believe the “old testament” no longer applies. Notice Tainan Cowboy’s tagline reference to Proverbs.
The most famous New Testament verses on sexuality come from Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians.
To his credit, Paul wrote: “6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.” But his example became the rule–surprise, surprise, religious practice and scripture part ways–and we’ve recently seen just how well that example served priests and parishioners.
Homosexuality:
1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.
Abortion (actually, the letter addresses sexuality, but is used to justify interference in control of another’s body):
1 Corinthians 7:1 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.[a] 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.
Jaboney,
You are confusing me. What argument are you trying to make? What does any of this have to do with Muslims? Where do your quotes from Corinthians condone violence?
[quote=“spook”][quote=“JMcNeill”]Spook,
I notice all of your quotes are from the old testament. After the coming of Christ, the laws of the old testament no longer apply. If you want to drag Christianity into this argument, maybe you should start quoting the laws/rules that Christians live by. Take a look at the teachings of Christ and compare those to the teachings of Mohamed. I think you will find that Christianity teaches love for all, even those not of your faith.[/quote]
Fundamentalist Christians and Jews don’t believe the “old testament” no longer applies.[/quote]Sourcing for this statement? We have only your word that this is true. Could you provide some facts to back this up…as well as its relevance? Only some parts? All of it? C’mon spook…enough of the rhetorical…lets see some substance![quote=“spook”]Notice Tainan Cowboy’s tagline reference to Proverbs.[/quote]So you infer that I am a “fundamentalist”?
It looks like you’ve found an easy out for not having an answer, eh?
By the way…have you actually read the verses cited in the Proverbs quote?
[quote=“Jaboney”]TC, yeah, that’s the reference & one context.[/quote]Jaboney -
Pardon me, but thats not very clear. I was referring to hw you were using that term, “The Adam and Eve crowd” in your original post. It appears to have a pejorative and condescending tone to it. Surely I wouldn’t want to mis-read your usage - so I was just asking for a clarification of what you meant by using that term and in what context you meant it.
I hope thi shelps you understand the request.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“spook”][quote=“JMcNeill”]Spook,
I notice all of your quotes are from the old testament. After the coming of Christ, the laws of the old testament no longer apply. If you want to drag Christianity into this argument, maybe you should start quoting the laws/rules that Christians live by. Take a look at the teachings of Christ and compare those to the teachings of Mohamed. I think you will find that Christianity teaches love for all, even those not of your faith.[/quote]
Fundamentalist Christians and Jews don’t believe the “old testament” no longer applies.[/quote]Sourcing for this statement? We have only your word that this is true. Could you provide some facts to back this up…as well as its relevance? Only some parts? All of it? C’mon spook…enough of the rhetorical…lets see some substance![quote=“spook”]Notice Tainan Cowboy’s tagline reference to Proverbs.[/quote]So you infer that I am a “fundamentalist”?
It looks like you’ve found an easy out for not having an answer, eh?
By the way…have you actually read the verses cited in the Proverbs quote?[/quote]
I meant to make the “Fundamentalist Christians and Jews don’t believe the . . . ?” remark a question.
TC, Torah is the “old testament.” See Judaism 101.
I assume that because you quote from the old testament (“Proverbs”) that you believe it still applies. If you believe the Old Testament does indeed apply, how do you decide which precepts to follow and which to ignore?
Yes, I’ve read Proverbs – as well as other parts of the Bible that I’ve been quoting from.
[quote=“JMcNeill”]Jaboney,
You are confusing me. What argument are you trying to make? What does any of this have to do with Muslims? Where do your quotes from Corinthians condone violence?[/quote]
See, that’s the funny thing. It doesn’t advocate violence, and yet is used to that end.
This passage:
Mark 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
does advocate violence, but no one would actually take that seriously, would they? Well, no one save one of my prof’s relations, who actually plucked out his own eye. Ouch!
The point is that scripture, whether it advocate violence or not, is nothing more than what adherents (or opponets) make of it. That applies to all religions. Hence my oft repeated assertion that the problem isn’t Islam, but specific Muslims.
Ah! Now I’ve got your meaning. Yes, you’re right. It does have a pejorative and condescending tone to it. The pejorative was intended to apply to the “Adam and Steve” crowd, but the condescension applies equally.
Actually, as a person of faith, I’m obviously (irrationally enough?) willing to check reason with faith, but it only goes so far. So, in all honesty, the pejorative also applies, though differently and less strenuously. Hey, if in 1996 even the Pope could come around to accepting evolution…
Unlike Uncle Adolf I don’t want to fight on two fronts at once. Man, maybe they have sold everything they have and given it all to the poor but that doesn’t mean they’re soft. Those boys don’t turn the other cheek…