Race and American Politics (split from Bush's iPod)


#1

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]At the appropriate time this will be my avatar…

I sincerely think she would be a great choice.[/quote]

Her against Hillary Clinton and Obama. Man, oh man, now that’s what I would call some authentic politics and getting back to choice.

It would be nice if this woman would just toss her hat in the ring to shake it all up a bit:


#2

noted.

Okay.

What do you base this on?

Sounds perilously close to reverse racism to me. All whites because of their skin color are inherently racist. Let’s try that with the other flip side of the equation. All blacks are inherently criminal, lazy, stupid, etc. etc. and then see how that goes over.

Just a thought…


#3

[quote=“fred smith”]
Sounds perilously close to reverse racism to me. All whites because of their skin color are inherently racist. Let’s try that with the other flip side of the equation. All blacks are inherently criminal, lazy, stupid, etc. etc. and then see how that goes over.

Just a thought…[/quote]

I don’t thnk it’s close to reverse racism. I was saying a sizable amount. Not all. Let’s be honest here, the division between whites and blacks in America runs deep, and there is a nice amount whites and other groups who wouldn’t want a black running the Office. Just because you don’t hold those beliefs don’t mean they don’t exsist. I think that America will have a woman, Latino, or Jew in office before a Black because IMO these are two groups that are seen to ‘proven’ themselves, i.e. economic,self reliance,level of education, level of public acceptance, etc. Blacks, on a whole, still have ways to go in terms of being viewed on par and capable with other groups in the public consensus.


#4

I disagree - If Powell’s wife wasn’t a drunk (or former drunk) I think we would have been looking at the first black president.

But then again, he’s pretty “white” looking and Jamaican to boot. Islanders as a group have tended to out perform the general Afican American population.


#5

What’s her being a ‘drunk’ have to do with the price of tea in China???:loco: Hell our POUS has a felony…So, you’re really trying to say???

[quote]
But then again, he’s pretty “white” looking and Jamaican to boot. [color=darkred]Islanders as a group have tended to out perform the general Afican American population[/color].[/quote]

Which backs up my arguement about the public consensus about African Americans, and why whites and other groups wouldnt be very inclined to vote for a Black.


#6

So you are the only arbiter of what passes as racism? Convenient?

I missed the sizeable but not all part, but I will accept that, but… so what? only Whites have uncomfortable feelings about Blacks? to the degree that you mention? I would have to see some evidence of that.

How do you feel about what Barbara Boxer, Sheila Jackson Lee, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Charles Shumer and otherse say about White folks? Or Cornell Washington?

My personal belief is that reverse racism among Blacks and an excessive perception of victimhood are more to blame than overt White racism in the US today.

So you are suggesting that we must vote a Black into office, or be comfortable doing so despite failure (or lack of success) economically, socially, educationally, otherwise we White would be racist? How do you account for the high status of rap stars among White teens, Oprah Winfrey among white housewives, Condi Rice and Colin Powell among White Republicans? Just curious.

I agree, but is that because of failures within the Black community regarding dysfunctional families, high teenage pregnancy rates, poor educational accomplishments, high crime rates, high rates of single parent families, high rates of drug use, high rates of prison incarceration or because of White oppression and racism?

I strongly urge you to examine your views on this because to me, they sound like reverse racism, but that’s just my view.


#7

[quote]Elegua wrote:
I disagree - If Powell’s wife wasn’t a drunk (or former drunk) I think we would have been looking at the first black president.

What’s her being a ‘drunk’ have to do with the price of tea in China??? Hell our POUS has a felony…So, you’re really trying to say??? [/quote]

That it would be brought out for public consumption just as Bush’s DUI was, just as Clinton’s potsmoking (but I didn’t inhale) were. So can we say that anyone running for office is fair game and that it does not boil down to only race? In fact, I think the press in the US is overly cautious about exploring racial issues and bend over backwards to avoid painting blacks and their communities in a negative light. If only we Republicans were half so lucky. When are we going to have “root causes” that we can blame when criticized? haha

[quote] But then again, he’s pretty “white” looking and Jamaican to boot. Islanders as a group have tended to out perform the general Afican American population.

Which backs up my arguement about the public consensus about African Americans, and why whites and other groups wouldnt be very inclined to vote for a Black.[/quote]

First, I disagree with the whole premise here. I think that the American people are capable of voting for good leaders that they trust regardless of race. I personally would love to see Condi Rice run for president and I would vote for her. I would have voted for Colin Powell as well. It had nothing to do with how white Powell may have looked. Certainly, Rice does not strike me as particular white looking, nor does Oprah winfrey but they are hugely popular with their particular bases, including many Whites.

I think that there is an even greater tendency among Blacks to vote for Black candidates no matter how bad they are otherwise please explain to me how Mayor Marion Barry returned to office again and again and again. Explain to me why primarily black schools in inner cities have to have a black principal?

Again, I strongly urge you to reflect on this a bit more. Your suggestions do not even come close to what I have seen or experience in the United States. I don’t deny that some may tell nigger jokes, but the same people would tell homo jokes and chink jokes and catholic jokes and on and on. Tolerance and sensitivity are a two-way street and I am only asking that you consider this in that light. I think your response was a bit reflexive.


#8

Actually, I would have voted for him - even though I tend to vote Democrat.

Powell said he’d never run due to “family” reasons. This apparently is the family reason - he wouldn’t want his wife to gor through what Kitty Dukakis (sp.) went through. In my eyes that makes him only more worthy.

Should I go dredging through census reports? avg educational levels and level of income for immigrants from the carribean tend to be higher than the avg.

BTW - Read Powel’s biography.


#9

Well if you can find the reports put them up, but I would be more curious as to your perception that Caribbean islanders are more successful in the US and I would like to know why you think so or have that perception or can prove that such a condition in fact exists.


#10

Why do I have this miss-apprehension? Mostly because I remember sitting in some class in college that told me so and being surprised.

If I read this - I’m right
" The incredible progress of the Caribbean American and Hispanic Community is a lesson in American life. They are hard working people who know the advantage of a regular paycheck, who have money to spend and who know the value of an education and home ownership. They take pride in strong inbred work ethic and want to realize the American Dream. Their achievement of income parity in America has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Barrons, Black Enterprise, Business Week and several other major publications.

A bit anecdotal…

If I read this - I’m wrong

This point is illustrated by the results from the table, which show that immigrants as a group actually have a slightly higher college degree attainment rate and a much higher rate of having an advanced degree (medical, law, or doctorate) than do the U.S.-born. On both measures, immigrants from Africa actually have the highest educational achievement rates and they also have the lowest rate of having less than a high school education. African immigrants are also most likely to be in the labor market.

Therefore, it’s clear that immigrants from Africa tend to come from their country’s elite classes. In contrast, the statistics point out that immigrants from Latin and South America and from the Caribbean have the lowest educational attainment rates. We can probably surmise from this that they are more likely to be from rural or working class backgrounds. As another example of this implication, immigrants from Latin/South America and the Caribbean have the lowest median personal (per capita) income, as well as the highest rates of living in poverty and receiving public assistance.

I can’t get the chart to paste - anyway - we’re waaaaaayyyy off -topic now


#11

An interesting topic nonetheless. I would like to hear more about it. Have the moderators split this off if necessary.


#12

This link has some interesting info.

census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-206.pdf

The outcome is a bit mixed, but it seems that is some areas, like reported earning (not HH income), health insurance coverage, home ownership I’m right. In other areas like HH income and education acheivement at time of immigration, I’m incorrect.

Anyway read the census - it’s interesting and I think shatters some misconceptions while reinforcing other.


#13

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]At the appropriate time this will be my avatar…

I sincerely think she would be a great choice.[/quote]Well, I wouldn’t want to see her elected any more than I’d like to see Hilary elected, but the campaign between them might be the best thing to come along in years.


#14

So you are the only arbiter of what passes as racism? Convenient?[/quote]
Now why would you say something like that. I actually found your orginal comment,[quote]Sounds perilously close to reverse racism to me. All whites because of their skin color are inherently racist. Let’s try that with the other flip side of the equation. All blacks are inherently criminal, lazy, stupid, etc. etc. and then see how that goes over. [/quote] close to racism. Why need to use such degrading descriptions to make a point.

[quote]I was saying a sizable amount. Not all.

I missed the sizeable but not all part, but I will accept that, but… so what? only Whites have uncomfortable feelings about Blacks? to the degree that you mention? I would have to see some evidence of that.[/quote] No I don’t thinkg only Whites have uncomfortable or even negative points of views about blacks. I did include other groups later in my other posts. Whites make up the majority of voters in the US, so I was just using that as general. Next time I wont generalize.

[quote]Let’s be honest here, the division between whites and blacks in America runs deep, and there is a nice amount whites and other groups who wouldn’t want a black running the Office.

How do you feel about what Barbara Boxer, Sheila Jackson Lee, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Charles Shumer and otherse say about White folks? Or Cornell Washington? [/quote] Jesse, tried and opened his big mouth. Al, isn’t equiped with social graces to do it. Barbara Boxer, Sheila Jackson, Charles Shumer, Cornell Washington, I don’t know what they would say about White folks. I guess I should ask them. Send me their email addresses…:smiley:

[quote]Just because you don’t hold those beliefs don’t mean they don’t exsist.

My personal belief is that reverse racism among Blacks and an excessive perception of victimhood are more to blame than overt White racism in the US today.[/quote] No arguement there…

[quote]I think that America will have a woman, Latino, or Jew in office before a Black because IMO these are two groups that are seen to ‘proven’ themselves, i.e. economic,self reliance,level of education, level of public acceptance, etc.

So you are suggesting that we must vote a Black into office, or be comfortable doing so despite failure (or lack of success) economically, socially, educationally, otherwise we White would be racist? How do you account for the high status of rap stars among White teens, Oprah Winfrey among white housewives, Condi Rice and Colin Powell among White Republicans? Just curious.[/quote] I can see you like to ‘read’ into things, as oppose to reading what’s written. And I know you are an avid reader. No Whites and any other group isn’t obliged to give Blacks any favors, especially when it comes to running for The Office. The Blacks you pointed out are not representive of the Black race because if they were, then the public consensus of Blacks would be that we are capable or more positive-not just to be President. Which I don’t think many groups in America see Blacks as since we are not giving strong examples of economic power, self reliance and other things that are ‘positive’. Your use of the abovemeantioned people, is a good example of what is called 'overcoming one’s blackness". When a Black person has achieved a level of sucess that respected in the White community and other communities they are no longer seen as a “Black” but their blackness becomes a sidenote.

[quote]Blacks, on a whole, still have ways to go in terms of being viewed on par and capable with other groups in the public consensus.

I agree, but is that because of failures within the Black community regarding dysfunctional families, high teenage pregnancy rates, poor educational accomplishments, high crime rates, high rates of single parent families, high rates of drug use, high rates of prison incarceration or because of White oppression and racism?[/quote] No, what is going on in the Black communities is our responsiblity. IMO, I think that if we(America) is to overcome this division, then Blacks are going to have to stop looking for this ‘acceptance’ thing they want so much from Whites and start doing it for themselves. We need to be the sole reason for our success and healing. On the flip side, Whites need to own up to their attitudes and the government needs to live up to that line in the Bill of Rights that says “All men are created equal”. That means getting rid of Affirmative action, and all this other stuff that creates resentment which leads to overt and covert racism.

It may sound like reverse racism, but try on some other words–like resentful, hurt, discouraged,distrusting,lack of faith, cynical, jaded, fed up, angry, sadden, peeved, frustrated… Take your pick or add some.


#15

[quote=“fred smith”]

Sounds perilously close to reverse racism to me. All whites because of their skin color are inherently racist. Let’s try that with the other flip side of the equation. All blacks are inherently criminal, lazy, stupid, etc. etc. and then see how that goes over.

Just a thought…[/quote]

OMG! don’t look now, but I am going to back Fred up here. Namma I was gonna say somethin, but wimped out. But then, Fred said something. Gotta watch those generalizations.

Bodo


#16

I disagree. I think that you should exhibit the same sensitivity to others regarding your acknowledged generalizations as you expect from them.

!!!

!!!

Did you know that some 250 of the top corporations in the US now have black CEOs?

B.S. What I am referring to are successful people who overcame challenges not being Black. Are you saying that Oprah, Condi and Colin among the many others are no longer Black?!!!

Well I would hope so. Isn’t that the whole point? Not noticing someone’s skin color but seeing them as a person? Do you really think that people walking through the slums see young Black men as Black first or as trouble first? And if a group of white kids or Latino kids or Chinese kids were dressed the same way and acting in the same fashion, do you think that the people in question would feel the same fear? I think so. My impression is that it is less about being Black than about attitudes exhibited, dress, appearance etc. This would be true regardless of skin color.

Yes, it is OUR responsibility because WE are all Americans but I think that the emphasis should be on the individual first, then the community and I still believe that the government can help but clearly what it has been doing the past 40 years has not solved but in fact exacerbated the problem. Let’s have vouchers now!

I disagree that there is a division. I disagree that there is an acceptance thing or Oprah, Condi, Colin and all the sports stars, Black actors and musicians and such would not be seen as so cool and so widely accepted. Who is not being accepted? I see Black stars making a fortune for endorsing products? Why? Because they are so accepted that people want to emulate them.

Lordy, how tired I am of hearing the word “healing.” Ain’t nothing to heal. The only thing to worry about is getting a good education, getting a good job, keeping that job and saving money for retirement all while hopefully hanging on to your health insurance and having a moderately good time in life. THAT is what ALL people hope for. This is not something that is limited to any one group and it is certainly not based on skin color.

So here we go again. All Whites have an attitude. Is that also true for all Asians? Jews? Latinos? What about if someone is half Black and half white, what kind of attitude do they have?

I believe that it has starting from the 1950s and through to 1967. Since then, I would say we are doing an excellent job. Any proof that this is not the case?

Music to my ears. Get rid of affirmative action which tends to disproportionately benefit rich Blacks anyway. Let’s make these programs for any and all students who are poor or disadvantaged. That would still include a number of Black students and it would be about poverty and not skin color. I wholeheartedly agree!

I will take them all and I am sorry that you feel them but do not project your feelings onto the entire Black community since I have had very indepth discussions on this subject with any number of Black people from Africa, the Caribbean, in the US and there is no one-size fits all feeling. You were not suggesting that there was, were you? So, if you personally feel these things, than I feel sorry for you, but you are fully entitled legally to press charges whenever you feel that your rights have been denied or take action if you feel that you are being discriminated against, no?

How would you compare your experiences in the States with Taiwan or other countries? Just curious.


#17

[quote=“fred smith”]
I disagree. I think that you should exhibit the same sensitivity to others regarding your acknowledged generalizations as you expect from them.[/quote] Noted. Will be more aware next time.

[quote=“fredsmith”]
!!![/quote]
They aren’t. Bush and others aren’t representive of the White race. Lucy Liu is representive of the Asian race,etc. I guess you’ve had heard the sound bites of public Black figures saying they aren’t heroes and that don’t represent the black race as a whole. Let’s not for get Mr. Tiger Woods with his Canasianblacknativeindian thingy…

[quote=“fred smith”]
!!![/quote] This is in refering to what I feel is what is representive in the media.

[quote=“fred smith”]
Did you know that some 250 of the top corporations in the US now have black CEOs? [/quote] Nope, thank you for sharing that.

[quote=“fred smith”]
B.S. What I am referring to are successful people who overcame challenges not being Black. Are you saying that Oprah, Condi and Colin among the many others are no longer Black?!!![/quote] Did you understand what I posted afterward?

[quote=“fred smith”]
Well I would hope so. Isn’t that the whole point? Not noticing someone’s skin color but seeing them as a person?[/quote]Yea that’s the point, but it doesn’t happen. I can’t tell you how many times I have showed up for an interview, and the interviewer has looked at me with suprise because the didn’t expect me to be Black. Or the crappy service I get at department stores, dealing with disinterested workers because their attitude is ‘she proabably can afford this’, and let’s not forget my favorite game–being followed by security cameras and people throughout the store which means in order for them to leave me alone, I have to keep all the items I would like to buy visible. :loco: Hell, Oprah just had this problem in Paris, and [color=darkred]they [/color]knew who she was.
Oprah’s Crash incident

[quote=“fred smith”]Do you really think that people walking through the slums see young Black men as Black first or as trouble first? [/quote] IMO I think its percieved as both.

[quote=“fred smith”]And if a group of white kids or Latino kids or Chinese kids were dressed the same way and acting in the same fashion, do you think that the people in question would feel the same fear?[/quote] No, IMO probably thinks they are emulating the ‘wrong’ style of life…

[quote=“fred smith”] I think so. My impression is that it is less about being Black than about attitudes exhibited, dress, appearance etc. This would be true regardless of skin color.[/quote] How I was that was true sometimes, but in the case humans being human that isn’t.

[quote=“fred smith”]
Yes, it is OUR responsibility because WE are all Americans but I think that the emphasis should be on the individual first, then the community and I still believe that the government can help but clearly what it has been doing the past 40 years has not solved but in fact exacerbated the problem. Let’s have vouchers now![/quote] No, IMO I think that Blacks really have to solve our own problems that have been created by our actions. Not that means that Blacks should exclude Whites,etc involvement but we should start with ownership of what we(blacks) have done to get ourselves into the situations that work against us and work toward solving them. But there is and has always been divisions in the Black community as to how to go about this which continues to set us back or derail us at times.

[quote=“fred smith”]
I disagree that there is a division. I disagree that there is an acceptance thing or Oprah, Condi, Colin and all the sports stars, Black actors and musicians and such would not be seen as so cool and so widely accepted. Who is not being accepted? I see Black stars making a fortune for endorsing products? Why? Because they are so accepted that people want to emulate them.[/quote] I don’t understand why you continue to use public Black figures as reasons why Blacks shouldn’t be ‘complaining’ or talking about what really affects them. Besides the people you are using as examples are not emulated as they have ‘‘crossed over’’ meaning that whites find the appealing, which to the companies they promote translates into dollars.
Also are they your measuring stick or something when you deal with average Black person? Yea, I think there is a need to be accepted coming from the Black community. When ever I hear ‘well I can’t do such and such because da man does such and such’ or the laundry list of racial abuses against Blacks as a reason as to why we can move forward and such, I think that is coming from a place in the person who thinks if we were accepted then we would be xyz. But if we would focus on ourselves and not worry about what “they” doing/ have done to “us” then I think we would be further as a whole. Blacks have made great strives in the past 20 or so years, economically but if you look at the statistics this is causing a wide gap that affects us on other levels.

[quote=“fred smith”]
Lordy, how tired I am of hearing the word “healing.” Ain’t nothing to heal. The only thing to worry about is getting a good education, getting a good job, keeping that job and saving money for retirement all while hopefully hanging on to your health insurance and having a moderately good time in life. THAT is what ALL people hope for. This is not something that is limited to any one group and it is certainly not based on skin color. [/quote] No, there is a need for healing. You have no idea how prevailant and deep the slave mentality runs. Healing in my case, would be resolving/letting go how what occured over 200 years ago, and how it’s been past down and dealing with the damage. Everyone hopes for it, but there are other factors that come into play when people are striving for a better life. Some of it is fate, some of it mentality, some of it is the social caste you were born into, some of it is choice.

[quote=“fred smith”]
So here we go again. All Whites have an attitude. Is that also true for all Asians? Jews? Latinos? What about if someone is half Black and half white, what kind of attitude do they have? [/quote] Got it. It’s another generalization I made, my fault.

[quote=“fred smith”]
I believe that it has starting from the 1950s and through to 1967. Since then, I would say we are doing an excellent job. Any proof that this is not the case?[/quote]
Yea, lets start with the incarnation rate for Black men in America and the legal system.

[quote=“fred smith”]
I will take them all and I am sorry that you feel them but do not project your feelings onto the entire Black community since I have had very indepth discussions on this subject with any number of Black people from Africa, the Caribbean, in the US and there is no one-size fits all feeling. You were not suggesting that there was, were you? So, if you personally feel these things, than I feel sorry for you, but you are fully entitled legally to press charges whenever you feel that your rights have been denied or take action if you feel that you are being discriminated against, no? [/quote] No my feelings can’t be fully representive for the entire Black community, but I’m not gonna lie when I say that you would find many share who my point of view. They may not be so forthcoming. As for Africans and Caribbeans, they tend not to be burdened with the same issues of being Black as Black Americans are, IMO due to the fact, I am guessing here, that the one’s you have talked to grew up in their culture instead of America.

[quote=“fred smith”]
How would you compare your experiences in the States with Taiwan or other countries? Just curious.[/quote]
My exprience in the States is a bit frustrating for me, partly my own issues,and having to deal with the issues that are apart of the ethos there. Being born in America I can’t complain that I haven’t had opportunity, yet, I do feel a bit disenchanted that things weren’t the case when I became an adult as I was lead to believe as a child. As a child I was lead to believe that MLK and others had cut this wonderful path for me to achieve anything, and that I was equal to my non-color peers and that I would be seen as moi. What I wasn’t prepared for in my working adult years, was how to handle overt and covert racism that is still prevailant in America, especially in the workplace. How to navigate through it all. But don’t believe that I can’t have or not be able to achieve what I want in America because I am Black. I just know that there are some personalities that don’t want me to succeed, or feel ‘threatened’ or uncomfortable with me seeing myself other than what some are led to believe about Blacks. I can’t do anything about that, that’s their thing, I’ve just gotta be responsible for me and know that if I want it, then I just gotta work for it. Be dammed with the naysayers…


#18

[quote=“Namahottie”] [quote=“fred smith”]Do you really think that people walking through the slums see young Black men as Black first or as trouble first? [/quote] IMO I think its percieved as both.

[quote=“fred smith”]And if a group of white kids or Latino kids or Chinese kids were dressed the same way and acting in the same fashion, do you think that the people in question would feel the same fear?[/quote] No, IMO probably thinks they are emulating the ‘wrong’ style of life…

[/quote]

[quote=“fred smith”]
So here we go again. All Whites have an attitude. Is that also true for all Asians? Jews? Latinos? What about if someone is half Black and half white, what kind of attitude do they have? [/quote] [/quote]

I certainly can’t speak for all whites. But being (apparently) white myself, I see and hear racist things from my parents and brother and old classmates and… all the time. (When I bring it up they always remind how they have a latin@ or black or whatever friend–so they aren’t really racist.) I myself often have to consciously try not to spread the stereotypes I’ve had shoved down my throat for as long as I can remember.

But I certainly still harbor them. Not many years ago, in my mostly white town, I was walking down the street and saw a group of white-looking kids who were totally sporting some sort of “urban/tough” look (that there would be PC-code) and all I could do was think “posers.” Walking through the neighboring town with a more latina populacion and seeing a group of kids of similar age/fashion (of a different ethnicity), would have certainly not made me think “posers.” It would be grand to find that I’m alone on this.

Frankly, although I can’t speak for everyone, I suspect what bell hooks calls the “straight-white patriarchy” (I think that’s what she called it – I forget) affects pretty much all Americans, if not everyone. This would mean that we would expect to find gay homophobes, non-whites who think whites are somehow superior, and women who consciously accept second-class status.

I would love to see an honest discussion on this topic, but I don’t have much hopes of one occuring on Forumosa (especially this forum). :frowning:


#19

What are you talking about? I think FS and Nama are having a very honest discussion. You have posted honestly, too. But, don’t project your own feelings and experiences onto other people and expect them to have the same. Just because others have different feelings and notions does not mean that they are being dishonest.


#20

What are you talking about? I think FS and Nama are having a very honest discussion. You have posted honestly, too. But, don’t project your own feelings and experiences onto other people and expect them to have the same. Just because others have different feelings and notions does not mean that they are being dishonest.[/quote]
Group hug time.