Real Crime, Fake Justice - England

[quote]Real Crime, Fake Justice
Theodore Dalrymple

For the last 40 years, government policy in Britain, de facto if not always de jure, has been to render the British population virtually defenseless against criminals and criminality. Almost alone of British government policies, this one has been supremely effective: no Briton nowadays goes many hours without wondering how to avoid being victimized by a criminal intent on theft, burglary, or violence.

An unholy alliance between politicians and bureaucrats who want to keep prison costs to a minimum, and liberal intellectuals who pretend to see in crime a natural and understandable response to social injustice, which it would be a further injustice to punish, has engendered a prolonged and so far unfinished experiment in leniency that has debased the quality of life of millions of people, especially the poor. Every day in our newspapers we read of the absurd and dangerous leniency of the criminal-justice system. On April 21, for example, even the Observer (one of the bastions of British liberalism responsible for the present situation) gave prominence to the official report into the case of Anthony Rice, who strangled and then stabbed Naomi Bryant to death.

Rice, it turned out, had been assaulting women since 1972. He had been convicted for assaulting or raping a total of 15 women before murdering Naomi Bryant, and it is a fair supposition that he had assaulted or raped many more who did not go to the police. In 1982, he grabbed a woman by the throat, held a knife to her, and raped her. Five years later, while out of prison on home leave, he grabbed a woman, pushed her into a garden, held a knife to her, and raped her for an hour. Receiving a life sentence, he was transferred to an open prison in 2002 and then released two years later on parole as a low-risk parolee. He received housing in a hostel for ex-prisoners in a village whose inhabitants had been told, to gain their acquiescence, that none of the residents there was violent; five months after his arrival, he murdered Naomi Bryant. In pronouncing another life sentence on him, the judge ordered that he should serve at least 25 years: in other words, even now the law has not quite thrown away the key.

Only five days later, the papers reported that 1,023 prisoners of foreign origin had been released from British prisons between 1999 and 2006 without having been deported. Among them were 5 killers, 7 kidnappers, 9 rapists and 39 other sex offenders, 4 arsonists, 41 burglars, 52 thieves, 93 robbers, and 204 drug offenders. Of the 1,023 prisoners, only 106 had since been traced. The Home Office, responsible for both prisons and immigration, still doesn’t know how many of the killers, arsonists, rapists, and kidnappers are at large; but it admits that most of them will never be found, at least until they are caught after committing another offense. Although these revelations forced the Home Secretary to resign, in fact the foreign criminals had been treated only as British criminals are treated. At least we can truly say that we do not discriminate in our leniency.

A Land Fit for Criminals has sold well and has been very widely discussed, though not by the most important liberal newspapers, which would find the whole subject in bad taste. But the book’s publishing history demonstrates how close we have come to an almost totalitarian uniformity of the sayable, imposed informally by right-thinking people in the name of humanity, but in utter disregard for the truth and the reality of their fellow citizens’ lives. Better that they, the right-thinking, should feel pleased with their own rectitude and broadmindedness, than that millions should be freed of their fear of robbery and violence, as in crime-ridden, pre-Giuliani New York. Too bad Fraser’s voice had to be heard over someone’s dead body.[/quote]
Quite sad.

Sad, but true. Manchester is terrifying. This is on my mind right now; my kid sister lives alone; someone put a brick through the window while she slept. She barricaded herself in her bedroom with the knife she keeps under her bed. The police came promptly, 6 1/2 hours later. They don’t care at all and won’t even pretend they will investigate; they just come to give you a reference number for your insurance claim.

Crime in Britain doesn’t come from ‘poverty’. It comes from the sense of entitlement that comes from living in a system where education, healthcare, living expenses, money to bring up your children, etc, is provided freely with few questions asked. Add ineffective policing, underfunded education and a shite liberal government which has became unchallengeable since the fall of Thatcher/Majorism into this mix and you get a deeply buggered society.

This not meant to be a middle class rant. But it probably is…

Buttercup -
My prayers for the safety of your sister.

Well, someone smashed up the window on my a car a while back, didn’t even try to steal anything, just a big nice round hole… costed me £60 for a replacement window and the police didn’t care at all…
As long as no weapons are used, crime seems to be accepeted here as part of life…

Thanks TC. My sister is a self reliant, confident, clever, funny, cool person. She bought her own house through hard work at a shitty, boring job she hates. She’s trying to improve her life by studying law part time. (her company are paying for this because she impressed them so much). They stole the laptop computer she saved up for (a month’s salary) to do this degree. But more than this, she’s scared to be in the house that she loved.

The police are impotent. Fortunately, my brothers and cousins and uncles aren’t.


Yep, the government is fucking shite.

Police do their best to prosecute - and lawyers do their best to find a hole in system to get people they know are guilty off the hook.

Police spend hours and hours doing paperwork only to have things thrown out of court for something as little as a spelling mistake.

Police have funds cut year after year, but the funds that go towards bureaucats in Brussels rise every year. Britain’s contribution to the well being of other countries far outweighs its contribution to its own people.

The government is trying to cut the numbers of officers in the police force by a further 25% - Blair would like to replace these with inadequately trained Civilian Patrol officers which have no powers of arrest except for those afforded under common law to normal citizens.
These are cheaper to train, but are next to useless in the role of policing.

It’s going to get far worse.

However, I hear of Britons that have emigrated to Australia, the States, NZ and parts of Europe, and after a couple of years they come back moaning that the only thing in these countries that is different is the weather. The western world is totally fucked.

And I think it’s worth saying here that I hate criminal defence lawyers - you are the scum of the earth and you should be ashamed of yourselves. All of you.

DM -
I hear ya Bro.
I won’t go so far as to sat the entire Western world is FUBAR…but its heading that way fast.
Completely agree with the solictor/lawyer part.
And the ACLU scum is even worse.

[quote]DM -
I hear ya Bro.
I won’t go so far as to sat the entire Western world is FUBAR…but its heading that way fast.
Completely agree with the solictor/lawyer part.
And the ACLU scum is even worse.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Well there are some places that are still nice - but they’re a well kept secret :wink:
I still have some faith. A line will be crossed and people will start to complain from the rooftops and I’m very much looking forward to that day.

[quote=“Dangermouse”]Police do their best to prosecute - and lawyers do their best to find a hole in system to get people they know are guilty off the hook.

Police spend hours and hours doing paperwork only to have things thrown out of court for something as little as a spelling mistake.[/quote]
In the absence of other evidence, magistrates always believe the police over the defendant. All the cases I have seen thrown out were because the defence had photographic or witness evidence to prove the police were lying. Well, that was the Metropolitan Police and maybe Midlands cops are a little better. I had an encounter with Norwich police and they were kind of cuddly. Manchester police, on the other hand, had a reputation as being even more corrupt and racist than the Met.

Only vaguely on topic, my brother just finished university in Salford (just outside Manchester). Muggings and smashed up cars were an everyday occurrence around the university, and the day before he first arrived someone was decapitated in a nearby pub.

Beaten up, sure. Glassed, unsurprising. Stabbed or clubbed with a heavy object, not unusual. But decapitated?? How does that even happen?

I still have some faith. A line will be crossed and people will start to complain from the rooftops…[/quote]

Honestly, I can’t believe it hasn’t already. Most violent crime in the US involves the poor on the poor, criminal on criminal. Sounds like in Britain it is the middle class who are getting the brunt of it. How can they have remained passive for so long?

We Manchester folk always say Salford is far far worse than Manchester proper I grew up scared of going there… The problem in that area is gangs of kids who really do not care, and know that the law cannot touch them, because either A) the police are incompetent or B) the kids are too young to be prosecuted.

Going back a few years, I witnessed what could only be described as the most savage kicking known to man on the back of a bus. Nobody batted an eyelid (of course) except me. I reported to the bus driver who’se only response was to say “oh, well… we’ll clean up all the blood at the depo”, then I went to the police.
To cut a long story very short, all the police really did was comment that “Wow, nobody ever comes down the nick anymore” and basically told me to be on my way. With that in mind, why should anyone bother to report stuff? To my knowledge, the guy was never caught, no motve for the beating was established etc

DM I’ve often wondered what your thoughts are on ASBOs… care to share?

Buttercup sorry to hear about your sister… What part of Manchester does she live in?

Gorton. Which is not actually that bad.

We come from Stockport which is pretty safe (only the occasional murder) but where burglaries and car thefts are off the chart. Stockport housing is now so over-priced that no-one can buy anything there, though. My sister couldn’t dream of living on the street where she grew up (it’s not that great.) because of house prices. The choice in Manchester is to pay really high rent or live with your mum forever. I guess it’s like that in other cities too.

The middle class do get the brunt of the property crime. Because of insurance, I suppose it’s seen as a victimless crime by the people that do it. But the violent stuff (decapitation in a pub) doesn’t really happen so much. I guess that’s ‘the line’

Also, what can they do? Write to The Guardian? The middle class have NO political power. There is no opposition to Blair, nor will there be for the foreseeable future.

In the past I would have laughed and said " Yeh Manchester. Up north they are scum." But it is the whole country. Went back to Burnemouth ( South Coast) and I was amazed at the backward step. The place was just pub after pub. There were fixed barriers going down the street. I asked why and was told it was to keep the drunks off the road and that it kept everybody in place. On asking where the mother and child walks the police officer said " They know they shouldn’t be out after dark. " So I presume that this means there is a curfew on non-drunks and fighters. That night I must have seen about 8 or 9 fights in the street with people throwing up everywhere. There was a police officer at the end of the road and I asked him why they don’t stop it. He said if they keep off the street it’s ok???

I asked my mum to get hold of the books they use in school for my kid . It appears they don’t use books anymore as there is no money to buy any for the schools. They just lecture. No homework, as nobody bothers to do it. And did you read that article that the government will now pay the parents to get their children to go to school.

My fear is that Taiwan is rushing to be the same. In the last few years the lack of discipline in the children and the ’ I’m alright jack , F*** everybody else’ parents has increased. I would now rant about the foreign parents who think the sun shines out of their kids arses and they would kill the teacher if they disciplined their kids. But I won’t, for their attitude shows how their own country is crap and they have come to destroy another country with their zealot, only give positive thoughts, nothing is bad, crap.

Sorry, just a rant as one of my students got hurt last week. Saw it happen. Parents deny it was their kid. I saw it happen. Kid then says it wasn’t him. I saw it happen. School asks why I didn’t stop it happening. Now it is my fault?
You cannot touch, shout, discipline in anyway the children and yet it is my fault. I feel sorry for the teachers, police officers and people who want to help but cannot because their hands are tied behind their backs. Maybe The TAE thread is all about getting the school back on track as a strict school that turns out students that were respected around the world with a good education not turning out spoilt rich kids that can do what they want because they have an American passport and parents with money. RAnt Rant Rant

bigal, 80’s-style northern-ism sounds stupid on an international forum.

My family aren’t scum (whatever that means).

That’s what I was exactly not saying. I am saying it is the world over not just northern England so don’t single out, I repeat don’t single out northern England and Manchester as the only bad place. Come on buttercup read it all. I may be an eighties kid under Thatcher but this is the typical answer I would expect as everybody takes it personally. Changes meanings and says it wasn’t me.

For history sake up north was the working class area and the south, the upper class rich. That is why I put that even the south was bad. Just as in the past Made in Taiwan was bad or all Americans have bigheads or all fat people eat MC donalds everyday. Shall I carry on so single minded people cannot see the humour and will also reply with ’ you pissed me off.’ All foreign teachers in Taiwan are drop outs. All engineers are women chasers. Never trust a man. That’s right I meant every foreign parent in Taiwan. Oh no! That’s me .Argh I am a man, an engineering teacher, a parent, fat, come from Newcastle. Where is bigal I want to kill him. Argggghhhhh.

Maybe this is why nobody will help anybody or do anything anymore for fear of somebody getting upset or legal action. I mean look. I cannot say your black but can say your white, I can say your thin but I cannot say your fat, I can say your beautiful but not ugly. You can discipline the teacher but the teacher cannot discipline you. It just wants to make you do nothing.

Me : I have a good idea for school/ work.
Friends at school/work: don’t do it.
Me: Why?
Fasw: If it goes good they won’t say thank you. If it goes bad they will blame you and you will get in trouble. Easiest way, do nothing just in case.

Now on one hand it makes sense but on the other hand surely we should strive to better ourselves and the enviroment. But remeber don’t do or say anything as it might upset somebody somewhere.

Recycle your garbage. Great idea.

Recycle your garbage, wash it first, put it in seperate ( more expensive thicker plastic bags). keep it in your house for a couple of days and then throw it away. Bad idea.

In a country where there is always a water shortage why are we washing our garbage especially as the rates are going to go up and they now charge a fortune for bags. All for the government to lmake more money out of recycling.

I did read it all. You said that prior to the fall of Bournemouth, you believed Northerners to be scum. But now that your town is full of puking, fighting car thieves too, you’ll let us off?

The north was not a ‘working class area’. There were workers there, sure. If the south was more prosperous, was it becase they all were middle class? The south has been, historically more prosperous for various factors. Was there always less crime in London because they are ‘middle class’? Is that what you mean?

I did see your humour, I just didn’t agree with it.

I’m sorry about what happened at your school. It sounds shitty.

Sorry, didn’t mean to get into a dumb north-south divide thing or start up some fight about PC expression because every Brit knows that being anti-PC is the new PC.

Hey Buttercup I’ve lived in the North and the South and can honestly say they both suck. Now I’m in Taiwan which I love…=-)

Me too. Can’t decide whether I love or hate Taiwan. Depends what mood I’m in. Mostly, I don’t care where I live as long as I’m safe and have a job. The south of France was the nicest place I’ve ever lived.

You are right DM.

I read the NZ news everyday and I am shocked as to what has become of my own country.

Our liberal govt has created an environment where people are 3rd generation Dole bludgers who honestly know no better than what their loser parents have taught them. Our prisons are overflowing and now ‘home detention’ is a fairly common way of dealing with all but the most violent of offenders.
Drugs. Just today, I read in the news that NZ has one of the highest methamphetamine production rates in the world

And to follow on in the tone of the OP, just LAST WEEK details came out of some loser who had a massive track record before he savagely murdered a girl by repeatedly running over her with a car.
In the lead up, he had attacked women with days of being release on several prior occasions. 1 or 2 days prior to the murder, he attacked a girl, then went to a psych hospital and admitted to it giving details. This was not investigated, and he was released later that day, and he went on to murder a prostitute by running her down repeatedly despite her screams for mercy.

And then there is the cultural problem. Of course I will get flamed for being so ‘Un PC’ or ‘racist’ but it’s out of control. Recently yet another case of severe Maori Child abuse resulting in the death of twins from one family has yet to involve any formal charges, even 2 months on from the event. At the time, it was deemed “culturally insensitive” for police to be questioning the parents as to how the deaths occured while the babys were in their care.Why? because the local tribe needed to perform the usual funeral rituals. Culturally insensitive? If I did that to my kids, I’d be locked up immediately and would face charges of murder within hours. In NZ right now, a new precident has been set. It seems a family can close ranks to police questioning and get away with it under the blanket of “culture”. It makes me sick and ashamed to think of these people as New Zealanders.

I am a white, straight, middle class male who believes in the law and working hard to get ahead.
I am so fucked these days it seems.