If Victor brings in cake every time an embarrassing issue comes up, maybe you should raise more objections.
i’m piping in late on this one. along with other voices of sanity and in line with a general effort towards simplicity in my reality i’m right behind Hanyu Pinyin. i once argued with my boss for the entire waking portion of a flight to London about Hanyu Pinyin being a sufficient and in most respects plenty elegant solution for Chinese romanization and how it is that Taiwanese needs the same legitimate romanization so that it can be better taught and preserved. he’s a proud Taiwanese from the rural south who made his way through NTU in the early eighties demonstrated for independence, speaks wonderful Taiwanese as well as learning a few aboriginal languages, and is a fan of Taiwanese self-determination in every regard. STILL, he has never been so stupid as to fight Hanyu Pinyin as the natural choice for a Guoyu standard. that should have been done a long time ago. it seems standardizing Tongyong so that Taiwanese and whatever other languages it will tackle can be standardly romanized is being frustrated by its various tendencies to resort variously to parallels with English or to Hanyu Pinyin and other systems in times where no solution is clear. as far as i can tell the national language and the native language(s) all suffer from this.
certainly the best thing Taiwan could do to establish their own identity/credibility would be to resolve some of the issues frustrating their unity. all this vacillation in the face of China and in the eyes of the international community does is hinder this. perhaps if pro-independence heads embraced Hanyu Pinyin then they could go ahead and institute it without losing face. The DPP should perhaps spend their time and effort on fighting a winning battle with a winning resolution in order to win a bit of credibility.
i am, by the way, one of those foreigners who will likely leave Taiwan pretty soon with only a few years spent here and so i’m not so concerned with Taiwan’s future, but in this case Taiwan’s inability to move forward serves only to hurt their cause. if Taiwanese were strong enough not to dither about due to fears of China or allegiances to China and simply use a standard they would be better off. if they used Hanyu Pinyin they would not be using Beijing’s Pinyin because the world would have changed to one where Taiwan actually has a system of its own that it has made its own. the payoff would be that it is the one most widely recognized around the world too.
on the other hand, i have little faith considering the state of things and the simple fact of this thread’s existence that this will happen, so i like most foreigners use Hanyu Pinyin in my own head, ignore all the white noise as best as possible, shut up and eat the cake. this way i can have MY Pinyin and eat it, too.
incidentally, there is so much cake in my office. does everybody else in Taiwanese companies eat so much cake and assorted xiaochi? while typing this very post i was delivered a little hunk of some sort of gingerbread cake. uncanny. yesterday it was squid jerky and gelatinous fruit balls, and there are a few desks at the office simply for laying out each days’ spoils. if only the strong snacking instincts of the Taiwanese could be harnessed and applied in international relations. until then, i’m not holding my breath.
Mr. Poagao [a hanyu pinyin compatible Minnanyu romanization itself,
congrads] is right [no, what, he is wrong?]. Many of you are
teachers. Be sure all your students know how to romanize their name
the correct way. Don’t want Junior spending time in your classes and
in the end he doesn’t even know how to write his own name. Also he
should be prepared to in a flash romanize any name, for use in an
English conversation.
The MPS2 main author, Wang Tianchang, retired Donghai Univ. Chinese
Dept. excellent real professor is firmly behind hanyu pinyin. At the
time of course they couldn’t use commie systems.
When my classmates and I came from England / Korea to Zhengda in 92 we put the case for HYPY to our teacher at the time who was quite receptive, and said that whilst she had studied it it was not a part of the curriculum for Chinese degrees or teacher training courses in Taiwan.
No matter where you’re from, what language you speak, HYPY is the international standard for romanising Chinese characters. How easy was it in class to ask your Korean or Japanese classmate to write down the Pinyin of an unfamiliar character, and instantly know how to pronounce it. No chance of that with Taiwan Wuyong Pinyin. Your Japanese, Korean, German, Russian classmates don’t know it, so new Shida students are going to be learning Zhuyin Fuhao, Wuyong Pinyin, AND Hanyu Pinyin (if they want to read any international texts about China). I have never met anyone from any country who has studied Chinese as a foreign language who didn’t use HYPY.
Randomly pick up a book or Journal on Chinese affairs:
China Quarterly 138, p480, footnote:
"Source, “Zhongyang zuzhibu guanyu xiuding ‘zhonggong zhongyang guanlide ganbu zhiwu mingchengbiao’ de tong zhi”, 10 May 1990 (Zhongzufa (1990) No. 2), in Renshibu zhengce faguisi (ed.), Renshi gongzuo wenjian xuanbian Vol. 13 (Beijing: Zhongguo renshi chubanshe, 1991), pp. 39-44.
Not just mainland texts either:
The Other Taiwan 1945 to the Present, Rubenstein (ed.) p 329 sources:
“Zhang Mingzheng. 1982. Taiwan xiandaihua yu funu zai qingnian qi zhi xingwei quxiang. Jingji lunwen: Zhongyang Jingji Suo 11, 1:209-26”
Every Sinologist knows Hanyu Pinyin. Every non-Chinese speaker who opens a Chinese phrasebook will come accross Hanyu Pinyin. Who is this mysterious type of foreigner that comes to Taiwan and needs to learn an additional romanisation to read street signs. And that’s ALL he’ll be doing. He certainly won’t be using his New Taiwan Wuyong Pinyin to look up the sources I’ve just quoted. If his Chinese is that good, he’ll know HYPY already !
Whenever it is necessary to write Chinese in textbooks Hanyu Pinyin is used and will always be used up and until the point Chinese characters can be legibly reproduced in a book in 10 point type. The New Taiwan Wuyong Pinyin is a system designed by people who don’t need it and will never use it, for people who don’t need it and will never use it.
The case for Hanyu Pinyin rests.
I don’t understand this strange debate about standards for writing a language. The article in the China Post was right: There is no law requiring anyone to follow any strange guidelines when using a certain language. That’s true for any language, including English.
Luck, Aim e Joermen end Ai heyt se sstreynsch wey se inglisch piepel wrait sehr lenguwitsch. Ai sink mai wey is matsch better, matsch iesieer tu andersstend. Raigt?
Don’t even try to read the above paragraph - except you think everyone should write a language as he/she likes…
Xianzai Oriented you Xibanyayu luntan - Zai she yi ge shiyong Hanyu pinyin de Zhongwen luntan, zenmeyang?
i read this whole thread the other day, yesterday i think, and found it to be a pain in the neck. taiwan should distinguish itself not by confounding foreigners and chinese scholarship with contrived romanization methods for Chinese but rather by simply doing what it does well, whatever that is.
today i actually read the editorial itself. that thing is sure a lousy editorial. besides the style and spelling errors it sounds like nonsense, and sensationalizing the issue by saying its an emotional one only to validate that emotions are as good a reason as any for policy is retarded. the group of people propping each other up and demanding Tongyong for street signs need to find a better mouthpiece. this guy’s rhetorical clutching at straws isn’t gonna convince anybody working on more than emotions, and anybody all that emotional about romanization systems is a little off-track to begin with.
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf: Luck, Aim e Joermen...
I should think you Germans are particularly fond of Hanyu pinyin, since its use of the Latin letters is close to that of German. For instance, the pronunciations of the letters “Z” and “C” are similar to German (as in ziemlich and celsius.) Any comment, Olaf? I have the impression that in some parts of North Italy, too, the letter “C” before “E” and “I” is pronounced “ts” - Can anybody confirm that? Also in some East European languages. I suspect that if there was some foreign input in devising Hanyu pinyin, it more likely involved Germans than Russians. Of course Hobart will now claim that they were doggone sonofabitch goose-stepping pinko commie East Germans, not cuddly NATO Yankee-loving mumsapfelstrudel West Germans.
quote:Correct, completely. That's probably one reason why we seldom see Germans complain about the assignment of sounds to characters for hanyu pinyin. Some things native english speakers have to get used to are really no issue for Germans. And originally it even used our nice "ue" (sorry, no german input on this computer, must be "u Umlaut")... That strange paragraph was just meant to illustrate what happens when everybody uses a language (and hanyu pinyin is just a (or another) written form of the chinese language) the way they like. Schnrrtlgrmpf...
Originally posted by Juba: I should think you Germans are particularly fond of Hanyu pinyin, since its use of the Latin letters is close to that of German... Any comment, Olaf?
The other foreign delegates on the Hanyu pinyin committee must have been English speakers, judging from the English-like use of SH, CH, R, J, Y and W.
What difference will it make whether the “English” newspapers here adopt any particular system of Romanization – they can’t even spell in English at this point. I can’t imagine them getting Romanization consistent no matter whose system they’re trying to use.
AND – as far as Romanization and learners of Chinese goes – the so-called “intuitive” nature of Tongyong supported by some has no bearing on good pedadogy. You don’t teach people the language by looking at hte words – you teach them the language, THEN they look at the words. The spoken form of the language should be primary. If it is, there will be no problems with mispronouncing words no matter how they are (consistently!) spelled, as the written form is merely a memory aid recalling the spoken form.
Terry
Taiwan vs. Turkey, A-Bian vs. Ataturk - compare:
quote:
The most difficult change in any society is probably a language reform. Most nations never attempt it; those who do, usually prefer a gradual approach. Under Ataturk's Leadership, Turkey undertook the modern world's swiftest and most extensive language reform. In 1928, when he decided that the Arabic script, which had been used by the Turks for a thousand years, should be replaced with the Latin alphabet. He asked the experts: " How long would it take?" Most of them replied: " At least five years." " We shall do it," Ataturk said," within five months"As the 1920s came to an end, Turkey had fully and functionally adopted (a Latin alphabet, which,) with its 29 letters (8 vowels and 21 consonants), has none of the complexities of the Arabic script, which was ill-suited to the Turkish language. The language reform enabled children and adults to read and write within a few months, and to study Western languages with greater effectiveness.
Source: Mustafa Kemal Ataturk 1881-1938 - The New Language
(Just in case anyone should misunderstand me here, I am not suggesting that Chinese characters should be replaced by the Latin alphabet - just that Taiwan could do with a few forward-looking movers and shakers like Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.)
I was kind of serious in my suggestion that Taiwan should come up with it’s own new romanisation system, possibly called ‘Taiwan Pinyin’, that just happens to be absolutely identical to the Mainland system, but is ‘invented’ in Taiwan, by Taiwanese for Taiwanese. Maybe they could stick a ‘v’ in there to make it just a tiny tiny bit different. Also to save face the goverment could quietly introduce pinyin at the same time as passing a big new law completely enshrining traditional characters and prohibiting a change to simplified characters or something.
Bri
Maybe they could stick a ‘v’ in there
I’ve been talking about a T for years. Today you forced me into
making the formal web page http://jidanni.org/lang/pinyin/t_pinyin.html .
Nice Dan. The page you wrote up makes it so clear and also lets Taiwan keep it’s pride. Now you have got it.
Kong
quote:
Originally posted by Bu Lai En: Maybe they could stick a 'v' in there to make it just a tiny tiny bit different
Too bad the commies beat you too it, as we can see from this note that appears on page 614 of the Xinhua Dictionary and page 956 of Beijing Foreign Languages Institute’s Chinese-English Dictionary:
quote[quote]V is only used for writing foreign words, ethnic minority languages and dialects.[/quote]What is interesting about this is that is shows that Hanyu pinyin is intended to be “tongyong,” i.e. applicable to non-Mandarin dialects and languages. Some examples of non-Han words I have seen in the middle of Hanyu pinyin texts are Monggol and Hohot (the capital city of Inner Mongolia - or the Nei Monggol Autonomous Region,) which would be Huhehaote if you transcribed the Chinese characters one by one.
The V sound does occur in Shanghai (Wu) dialect.
quote:
Originally posted by Hobart: Juba, what power do I have to obstruct the PRC's Hanyu pinyin from being used here in Taiwan? Why are you singling me out. I have no power.
Quite right, Hobart, you are powerless. Therefore you are no longer number two on Juba’s Hanyu pinyin guerilla warfare hitlist. Your place next to DPP Taibei mayoral candidate Li Yingyuan has been taken by DPP Taibei councillor Wang Shijian, since he is not only anti-Hanyu pinyin, but is also the the perpetrator of the absurd xenophobic rumours about crowds of drug-crazed foreigners wooping it up at the Huashan cultural centre - which goes to show what a small-minded bunch these anti-Hanyu pinyin politicians really are.
What is interesting about this is that is shows that Hanyu pinyin is
intended to be “tongyong,” i.e. applicable to non-Mandarin dialects
and languages.
Actually in http://jidanni.org/lang/pinyin/index.html#tai_ke I looked
into this.
If they hadn’t multiplexed the i and ii, then maybe so.
Anyways, we don’t need to sell hanyu pinyin as the one size fits all
miracle cure. it does the job we want it to do, spell mandarin, well,
and is the world standard. no, we aren’t concerned if it also waxes
floors at the same time.