quote:Hey Doc, if it comes so naturally to you, why can't you spell it correctly? [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Originally posted by [i]Dr[/i] Yeh: I personally use the Pingying system on my Chinese Windows system and it is very natural for me.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2002/04/21/story/0000132772
“In Ashley Hines’ letter to the editor (letters, page 8, April 11 http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2002/04/11/story/0000131427), it was not a good idea to use the word “retarded” to describe someone’s criticism, especially if this criticism is directed against Taipei City Mayor Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九 …Bla bla bla…
He insists that Taiwan should adopt the transliteration system used in China, instead of the common transliteration system developed for languages in Taiwan. I don’t think Ma is qualified to be a ‘new Taiwanese’. Charles Hong
Columbus, Ohio”
My apologies on Ashley’s behalf! Not only Wang Shijian’s (王世堅 criticism of of Ma Yingjiu seems retarded, your views of pinyin are ever more retarded!
quote:
Originally posted by crazyabouttaiwan: new to this issue, but is there or was there ever any kind of ronanization system a la japanese ssystem. Like "watashi wa anata go oishi desu ka." Could Chinese be written is such a simple abc style?
Yes, this is what Pinyin tries to do. The difficulty however is that in Chinese you can say the same word with different tone, and thus change the meaning. This is difficult to represent in a roman script because this feature is rare in Western languages. Tone usually conveys mood rather than meaning, but spellings are sometimes changed to make this clear, for example: “yes”, “yup”, “yeah”…
Pinyin uses a system of accents (or words can be suffixed by numbers to make the tone clear). But they are hard to reproduce or make the script look unnatural. Earlier romanization systems tried to represent the tone by spelling changes, but this led to unnatural spelling and made the system both ambiguous and hard to learn.
The issue of tone cannot be ignored in Chinese. Speaking Chinese without tone severely affects comprehension.
-Malkie
quote:
Originally posted by David_K: An interesting news article came up today about people in China spelling their names or naming themselves like famous and important people (overseas Chinese ); ie stars like Coco Lee, Chow Yun Fat, etc...
Wow, I guess the west will have to get its house in order too, god (or gods) forbid that we might change the spelling of our names according to whim or fashion!
Come on, surely people can call themselves what they want? Does it really matter if you want to be known as “Brian” or “Bryan”, “Luis” or “Lewis”, as long as you use the name consistently. If someone wants to be “Bruce Lee”, isn’t that okay? Why do they have to be “Bruce Li” or “Li Xiao Long” instead?
The issue of personal names, which by definition are a highly personal choice and unique to an individual would seem to be independent of a consistent way of representing Chinese language so that it can be transliterated, and maybe even rendered, by persons inexperienced in Chinese characters. Personal names are not likely to be that confusing as long as they are spelled consistently — foreigners unable to find streets in Taipei (Taibei?) because they are spelled inconsistently is a real problem and immediate concern.
Having signs like: “Hsin Yi”, “Sin Yi”, and “Xin Yi” all on the same street is idiotic in the extreme and just appears to visitors that the people running the city are dumb. That they, and the originator of this article, are focused on the wrong issue may be closer to the truth.
-Malkie
It’s the final countdown, folks. The China Post website says that a final decision on Taiwan’s romanization system will be handed down on July 13. I’m not optimistic that they will choose the system of logic, experience, and international standards, but I still (foolishly) hope.
I predict that whichever way the decision goes, the sun will still rise from the East the next day.
CHINA POST, June 13, 2002 Thursday, p. 20
Romanization decision due July 13
(last three paragraphs of article
Education Minister Huang also pointed out the in the absence of any law specifying an official romanization system, there would be no way to make individuals, organizations, or even local governments use a particular system.
For this reason, former vice premier Lai In-jaw, who previously served as a Grand Justice, suggested that such a law be put int place, Huang said.
That notion was abandoned after further research showed that any such attempt would quickly run into problems with complex legal issues concerning the autonomy of local governments, he added.
So, we will have an official romanization system, but everyone is free to carry on as before!!! Or am I misinterpreting something???
Hooray! So now there’s no need to learn all these spelling systems and we can officially spell them as we please! Great news!
I am so sick and tired of this spelling mess. Part of my job involves translating or checking Taiwanese addresses for foreign-language publications. I have wasted literally thousands of hours of my time because there are seven or eight spelling systems, multiplied by the joined-up, hyphenated and separate syllable variants, plus this and that dialect and the spell-as-you please method. Hsichih, Hsi-Chih Hsi Chih, Shijr, Shi-Jr, Shi Jr, Xizhi, Xi-Zhi, Xizhi, See jer, She Cher and on and on almost ad infinitum. Oh yes, and the translation or semi-translation method (e.g. 大肚 spelled as “Big Tu” (I kid you not.) Right now I have in front of me a list of hundreds of randomly spelled company addresses that I am supposed to be correcting. What a f***ing waste of time. In the mood I am in right now, I am ready to get violent with anybody who obstructs the implementation of Hanyu pinyin any longer, starting with Li Yingyuan (or however he chooses to spell his name) and closely followed by Hobart.
Target no. 1 Li Yingyuan 李應元 
Target no. 2 Hobart
Hey, forum leader, waddya think you’re doing deleting my images?
Oh dear, Yuba, sounds like you’re having a bad day! Never mind, Choo’bah, just think, if you didn’t have to do this, you probably wouldn’t have a job at all!
Its OK, though, Joo-ba, just a few more weeks to wait (July 13) until … sod-all happens!
'Aint life grand?
Many of the posters to this forum are in favor of promoting the Hanyu Pinyin system. In reading through all the comments on this thread, I find that there is a perceptual problem, i.e. –
before you can promote the Hanyu Pinyin system of romanization to the local Chinese-speaking populace, you first have to promote the concept of SYSTEM at the most basic level.
In my opinion, the Chinese-speakers here have no concept of SYSTEM to begin with, so when you take the leap to “the necessity for the promotion of the Hanyu Pinyin romanization system” of course you lose them.
This is really something to think about, no kidding. In what area of activity here in Taiwan, (especially government activity) do you see a coherent SYSTEM, without myriad amounts of contradiction and inconsistency???
There is, I repeat, no concept of SYSTEM, hence the movement to promote the Hanyu Pinyin romanization system is fraught with difficulty at a deeper level than most of you realize.
My two NT$.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, Richard - but surely some people must realize the need for a system - people like librarians, and post office workers who have to try to deliver letters that are not addressed in Chinese characters to the right address - a task at which they fail quite often.
Juba, what power do I have to obstruct the PRC’s Hanyu pinyin from being used here in Taiwan? Why are you singling me out. I have no power. Likewise I doubt that you have the power to see that the PRCs Hanyu pinyin is implemented here. You are a guest in Taiwan and can only go along for the ride. If you don’t like it…
By the way, I can’t believe you actually want to get violent with someone over their free choice to not use Hanyu pinyin while in Taiwan. You should see a shrink! My post in this thread is almost a year old. I have mellowed out about Romanization issues since then. I suggest that you should calm down as well.
Or is it actually my political leanings you don’t like? Are you too a Pro-China Pan-Blue PFP KMT loving China Post reader? If so, my question to you is why would you promote unification with a goose stepping Communist country pointing missles towards your home here in Taiwan?
Finally, I get my spellings for Taiwanese place names from government postal web sites. Why don’t you save yourself some time and do the same, and stop hurling personal attacks at me.
Peace.
quote:
Originally posted by Hobart: Are you too a Pro-China Pan-Blue PFP KMT loving China Post reader?
Yes, I am. I was in a bad mood last night - so would you be if you had to do this stupid address job over and over again. The government web site gives the address spellings in a system (zhuyin fuhao di’er shi, I think) that is different from Wade Giles, guoyu luomazi, tongyong pinyin and Hanyu pinyin - all of which appear in various addresses - as well as the random, hybrid and just plain wrong variants. So the government web site doesn’t solve the problem, unfortunately - it just adds another variant.
Love and peace to you, too, Hobart. 
Originally posted by Hobart:
quote[quote]My post in this thread is almost a year old. I have mellowed out about Romanization issues since then.[/quote]What? You were serious in that post?
Does this mellowing indicate a different position now? If so, what is it?
quote[quote]I get my spellings for Taiwanese place names from government postal web sites.[/quote]As Juba noted, the postal service uses MPS2. Well, most of the time.
Perhaps predictably, it is not consistent in its usage. In its reference material (but not on its other Web pages!) street names are generally given in MPS2. But place names are sometimes given in MPS2 and sometimes in bastardized Wade-Giles. And sometimes in something else.
i just wish for once that common sense would prevail in this debate… hanyu pinyin is the internationaol standard - just use it!!!
It has obviously already been decided at a very high level in Taiwan that should Chinese never be romanised in Taiwan, Hanyu Pinyin will not be the standard.
Nevertheless, each one advocating something other than HYPY must answer a simple question:
“For whose benefit are Chinese characters being romanised?”
I can read Chinese. I studied Hanyu Pinyin, Wade-Giles, and Yale academically. I don’t give a damn if they represent Chinese characters with pictures of fruit. Looking at their hilarious “standard” for phoneticising English, I await the new “Taiwan Pinyin” with great anticipation, as it will no doubt be the only romanisation system in the world to be completely incomprehensible to absolutely everyone who comes upon it, regardless of his or her proficiency in the original language ! Priceless ! A truly egalitarian system of romanisation ! No-one can understand it ! Ha Ha Ha ! Oh my sides are aching !
I agree that it is useless waiting around for the government to finish its stalling on the subject. In the meantime, why don’t those of us who support Hanyu Pinyin do what we can to implement it ourselves? Many of our jobs involve romanization in some capacity, from English teachers to editors at newspapers, large companies and the GIO. Why don’t we, in the absence of any set standard, just make an effort to use standard Hanyu Pinyin whenever it is up to us to romanize Chinese for whatever purpose? I would say leave the names of the big cities alone, such as Taipei and Kaohsiung, but for everything else, use Hanyu Pinyin. I implement it in editing press releases, reports, and scripts, and the people at my company are gradually realizing it is the standard as well. To be honest, even if the government, as it is likely to do, came up with yet another attempt to manufacture its own version of “Taiwan-only” pinyin, I would be disinclined to use it, since I know from experience that it would not make sense and only be touted for a few months before joining the other, previous systems lying in the dustbin.
I’ve tried that at my work, but it raises such strong objections that I’ve pretty much given up. I still point it out each time I see non-Hanyu, but am consistently told that “at CNA, we don’t use the Beijing system.”
“But its not the `Beijing’ system, its the international system used everywhere except rural Taiwan.”
“Ha ha! But its used in the mainland and if we use it, the DPP will cut our budget, so we use the other system.”
“What other system?”
“Look, Victor brought in some cake! Why don’t you have some cake?”
“Oh, OK. Thanks.”