Russia invades Ukraine: General Discussion 2023

No sophistry, please. I was not talking about the disputed legal international status of Formosa (i.e. "During the period 1945-1949, Taiwan was officially considered occupied by the ROC on behalf of the Allied Forces”), which would be irrelevant, but refering it as the last piece of territory under the effective military control of the KMT (the way the German Third Reich can sometimes technically survive after 1945 by holding a last occupied province of Yugoslavia in a typical Hearts of Iron 4 game), before facing the fate of South Vietnam, i.e. a final total annihilation.

For the Taiwanese people, whether the KMT regime survives is irrelevant, much like the survival of the Third Reich is irrelevant to the people of Yugoslavia. To those being occupied illegally, all that matters is to get a chance of self-determination.

Alas, during the time frame of the entire human history, let alone the WWII, self-determination by the people has rarely existed.

Great powers decide. This is fact.

Between 1936 to 1945, the list of would-be free nation is endless, just for a remainder:

• Iraq, lost fighting the British Empire, ended occupied
• Persia, ended occupied following a Soviet-British joint military invasion
• Burma, failed to achieved independence through an armed struggle under Aung San
• Vietnam, failed to achieved independence through an armed struggle under Ho Chi Minh
• India, failed to achieved independence through an armed struggle under Subhas Chandra Bose
• Tibet, failed to even launch an armed uprising following a plot
• Baltic States, invaded by the Soviet Union, then Germany in 1941, ended annexed by the USSR in 1945
• Poland, invaded by the joint German and Soviet forces, occupied by Germany after 1941 then by the USSR after 1945
• Ukraine, invaded by Germany in 1941, independence fighters arrested and deported to Konzentrationslager (KL), recaptured by the USSR in 1944
• Tannu Tuva, annexed by the Soviet Union in 1944
• Korea, armed uprising failed, most Korean fighters deported and died in Siberia, following the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact
• etc

• Taiwan, served loyally the Empire of Japan, ended defeated and occupied by the Allies

▲ 昭和15臺北西門町大世界館前街

So what so surprising?

First, that you would reject the idea of self-determination of peoples.

In 1945, the vast majority of humankind was living colonised by the British Empire and French Empire principally, or as Dutch, Belgian, Portugese and Spanish colonies.

To a lesser degree, as American and Soviet (arguably) colonial possessions.

Is that your understanding of ‘self-determination of peoples’?

There were only some 50 free nations. This means 143 regions were living as colonies, out of today’s 193 countries.

Uh, no. Why would it be? This is 2023.

1 Like

No to mention that the French didn’t just decide to leave Vietnam one day because they were bored of it. For a lot of reasons they could no longer keep it.

Great powers have a great impact, to be sure, but self-determination plays a role. The USA propped up Israel, for example, but the determination of the people who went there to make a country where there already was a people cannot be discounted as irrelevant.

The situation in 2023 changes nothing.

There are still about 60 secessionist movements around the world that want independence.

This clearly shows that the bogus notion of ‘self-determination of peoples’ does not apply for nearly a quarter of mankind!

Let’s talk about Ukraine. Will this nation be independent in 2032?

The fate of Ukraine will be decide in the battlefield only. Great powers will decide.
Not by the so-called ‘self-determination of peoples’.

Lol, you can’t be serious. Many people are murdered every year. Does that justify murder?

No one is arguing about colonialism pre-world war 2. It is exactly the mentality that great powers decide that got us into both world wars. The UN charter was written in hopes of preventing history from being repeated again.

@discobot fortune

1 Like

:crystal_ball: Without a doubt


Nah, this is an oversimplification. The battlefield of the mind plays a role, if the Ukranians want to they can choose Russia (some have), or they can flee the country (some have). It is only if enough are determined enough to put their self on the line that there is someone for the US to support.

Look at Afghanistan, where great powers go to die.

That’s like saying the person with the fastest draw would decide, not by the so-called ‘laws’. I mean sure, if rules and common decency have broken down, that’s probably what happens, but is that the kind of the world you want to live in? You think we’d be here on the internet debating for not real purpose at all in the comfort of air-conditioned rooms, living aboard for a decent paying job if that’s the kind of world we live in?

A large exchange of prisoners was conducted on Thursday, February 16. Ukraine brought back 101 citizens. 94 of them are defenders of Mariupol, including 63 soldiers from Azovstal.

alright now this is just fucking insane, this is someshit right out of a movie.

ukranianian rambo destroys entire russian assault unit.
takes out a BMP firing, then chops down 1 guy storming the trench, chops down another behind him, takes put a PKM then lights up the other 2 guys in the brushes.

Sheer determination.



2minute high quality version


Nature is cruel therefore we are also entitled to be cruel.
- Adolf Hitler

Alas, this quote reveals how most powerful world’s leaders think.

Those who can’t correctly assess the main actors and the current world order’s rules are doomed to suffer, and to pay this mistake at the price of their lives.

This would be funny if it weren’t tragic.

Two recent cases.

Both Myanmareses and Ukrainians were conned into believing they could trust the international conventions and treaties.

Because of that fatal overconfidence they escalated with the false sense of superiority in their favor. Remove the international laws and they are naked.

The NO-FLY ZONE trap, that both Myanmarese opponents (PDF, NLD) and Ukraine begged QUAD and NATO respectively to impose never materialized.

These amateurs simply ignored that the use of no-fly zone is a privilege and not at all an international law, used at the discretion of the NATO for its own convenience only: against Iraq, Yugoslavia and Libya.

The other dangerous hype was the Responsibility to Protect – known as R2P –.

▲ Fatal mistake: Calling for an imaginary savior.

▲ Fatal mistake: R2P

Presented falsely as an international norm, this magic umbrella was never deployed to save both Myanmareses and Ukrainians.

That is why these miscalculations have costed so far thousands of preventable Myanmarese and Ukrainian deaths.

Again, I must respectfully disagree.

Iran, Afghanistan, Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, China, Venezuela, etc have something special in common. The real cause.

In all these regions, great powers have recently been defeated. Coincidence? I think not.
As a matter of fact, this can be explained by a theory, but this would be too long here and off-topic.

The UN charter was not written in hopes of preventing history from being repeated again, but as an emergency face saver.

By simply overlooking the anger of the Western citizens who witnessed first hand the horrors of WW2, the Western elite and rulers would have been overthrown by a popular uprising.

The same most dreaded fear that was haunting the Western leaders since 1815.

Same goes for the annual commemorations of war deaths.

Indeed, the popular masses are easy to fool and appease.

Ukraine might survive but probably diminished in superficy.

[quote=“stoa1984, post:690, topic:226385, full:true”]

Ukraine might survive but probably diminished in superficy.

Does discobot discuss geopolitics? AI?

What do you have to say about the state of geopolitics today, @discobot quote

1 Like