finley: I suspect part of the issue with aboriginal cultures is that prior to the past five hundred years, when a civilisation rubbed up against them (primarily the Old World, plus Meso-America, and presumably the Incas also – actually, I guess any more advanced or powerful tribe would have done this, even if neither tribe was particularly advanced, just so long as one had an advantage in relative terms), they were destroyed or assimilated precisely because their “culture” didn’t really have much to offer anyone. There are plenty of examples of the opposite happening though (a conquering culture gradually assimilating, either completely or partially, into the conquered culture). There must be thousands of tribes that existed in Europe alone that didn’t make the grade. Does anyone bemoan the loss of those cultures or feel that they should be molly-coddled? I’m glad wave after wave of invaders arrived on the shores of England. They brought some bloody culture to the people. Otherwise, we might be running around with blue paint on our faces to this day. I don’t want anything to do with my ancestors’ “culture”.
Mucha Man: I’m not going to engage your thinly veiled insults.
I understand what the current situation is. That doesn’t mean that the status quo cannot be changed. Obviously, it’s been changed in the past. It’s a curious idea to suggest that people can’t, or shouldn’t, try to argue against things they don’t agree with, even if that means they must challenge the status quo.
Me thinks they already are…shopping at Carrefour !
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Muzha Man: I’m not going to engage your thinly veiled insults.
I understand what the current situation is. That doesn’t mean that the status quo cannot be changed. Obviously, it’s been changed in the past. It’s a curious idea to suggest that people can’t, or shouldn’t, try to argue against things they don’t agree with, even if that means they must challenge the status quo.[/quote]
Oh, please. I asked for a solution and you gave me libertarian dogma. I have no tolerance for that kind of nonsense anymore.
If you understand the current situation then propose something that starts with the premise that aboriginal status is not going away within our lifetimes.
You lot are crazy. They shop at Costco.
Mucha: Again, insults. You think your political beliefs are reasonable or rational and anyone else’s constitute dogma or nonsense. Okay, great. I’m not sure where we can go with that.
I don’t really get this line of yours that people should only propose something within the current status quo. History is full of examples of people bucking the status quo and actually changing it.
Wait ! IF aboriginals shop at Carrefour or Costco or aimai or whatever, do they need to wear their traditional clothes?? Should they be made to? 
Only if they look like this:
http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=105863&p=1380533&hilit=waiting+list#p1380522
Guessing you don’t get out much, but take a trip down south sometime - you’ll be surprised to find that after 500 years their culture is still going strong. In fact, as i argued earlier, the wheel is starting to turn full circle and there’s a growing tide of Taiwanese (and foreigner) ‘refugees’ who are coming down here and getting their plots of land, growing vegetables, raising stock and basically following the aboriginal model of subsistence living. You can deride them as ‘hippies’, but you’ll find they are perfectly happy with this lifestyle.
A common sociological defence mechanism used to shore up insecurities about your own culture is to start attacking other cultures that differ from yours. By positing them as ‘savage and barbaric’ as you call them, it justifies the ‘conquering’ of them and the attenuating, but highly ‘civilized’ slaughter or ‘rubbing against’ that follows.
They were here before you were - is it too much to ask to just show them a little bit of respect?
dulan: Those are a lot of assumptions about where I do and don’t go and what I do or don’t do with my free time.
I don’t respect a culture simply for existing. I respect it based upon its contributions to wider humanity. That is what civilisation is. I’m also not justifying history, merely commenting on it.
[quote=“dulan drift”]
They were here before you were - i’s it too much to ask to just show them a little bit of respect?[/quote]
This argument (IMHO) gets used WAY too much and makes NO sense.
Unless we live in Africa, none of us are native to the land we live in (at least according to the fossil records). So wherever you go, you are a newcomer. Just because someone got here before you, does not give them special privileges to that place. Guess what? Someone was here before them, and before them (and so on). How many cultures came and went, were annihilated through tribal warfare, or merely merged over time, before a single Chinese or white person stepped on this land…and then simply continued the process?
If we want everyone to “go back to where they came from” and live on their “native soil”, then we all gotto go back to Africa.
And if we REALLY want to respect the “first inhabitants” of the places we live, then we must show UBER respect to the animals and insects (since they were on these plots of land way before us).
There is very strong evidence that the people of most of south east Asia originate genetically from Taiwan. They really were here before everybody else.
[quote=“Confuzius”][quote=“dulan drift”]
They were here before you were - i’s it too much to ask to just show them a little bit of respect?[/quote]
This argument (IMHO) gets used WAY too much and makes NO sense.
If we want everyone to “go back to where they came from” and live on their “native soil”, then we all gotto go back to Africa. [/quote]
Congratulations! You have perfectly demonstrated the classic give-away sign of feeble-mindedness in an argument. It’s like, textbook.
Here’s how you do it.
- You take the argument presented to you: ‘Just show them a little respect’ (my words),
- Then you hope no one is looking while you change that into an extreme radical position that’s actually totally of your own invention: ‘If we want everyone to “go back to where they came from” and live on their “native soil” then we all gotto go back to Africa!’ (your quote - dunno whose quotes those ones are that you’ve put in inverted commas)
- Then finally, you bounce off that as a ruse for slipping in your own nutty radical counterbalance mantra: ‘Adapt or die!’ (your quote)
It’s great actually – make a very nice example for any teachers out there to show their students next time they are doing argumentative writing. Thanks for that.
I think the aboriginal people should set traps in Carrefour.
[quote=“jimipresley”][quote=“Confuzius”]
If it is either set traps OR shop at Carefour (if those are the ONLY two options, which I doubt) then yes, you must shop at carefour.
[/quote]
I think the aboriginal people should set traps in Carrefour.[/quote]
There were a few rather lovely looking traps there today.
It’s a bit more complicated than that, I think. Aborigines have often been on the losing side of wars and colonization efforts that resulted in massive reductions in their territories and populations. Granting aborigines exemptions to a few environmental regulations seems like a fairly small consolation.
Honestly, I think you and Mucha Man are talking past each other. He’s not saying that aborigines should be granted carte blanche to break all laws and regulations. He’s saying they should be allowed to hunt and fish on their land, as long as they do so in a sustainable manner. However, this may mean they get to exceed quotas imposed on the larger society, for the simple reason that they’re hunting to live, and are far fewer in number. The other 98% of the population is mostly hunting or fishing for sport, and a one-size-fits-all regulation doesn’t make sense in this context.
I agree with you that just because we have a treaty in place now doesn’t mean it should exist unchanged for all time. But, I don’t think treaties should be abandoned just to pressure aborigines to assimilate, either.
[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote=“jimipresley”][quote=“Confuzius”]
If it is either set traps OR shop at Carefour (if those are the ONLY two options, which I doubt) then yes, you must shop at carefour.
[/quote]
I think the aboriginal people should set traps in Carrefour.[/quote]
There were a few rather lovely looking traps there today.[/quote]
It does rather seem like wildebeest grazing on the plain when you’re in Costco. I get this David Attenboroughish feeling.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Then people are growing the wrong things in the wrong way. One major objection I have with my landlord is that he insists on having the wrong plants in the garden. He wants a lawn (even though he doesn’t live here), yet will only pay for the lawn to be cut once every couple of months, which is absurd given that his property is actually below the Tropic of Cancer. He won’t generally take care of the lawn anyway. We end up having to pay to have the lawn cut, which really pisses me off because if it were up to me, we wouldn’t have a lawn, or I’d keep various animals to keep the grass down…
As to fruit trees and spraying them, again, if people didn’t plant monocultures then this would be far less of a problem. It’s quite possible to grow a variety of different things within a garden and not have massive infestations of pests or diseases. Monoculture causes at least two problems. The first is that it creates what is essentially an enormous buffet for particular pests or diseases, with little to no distance from one food source to the next, so of course their populations explode. The second is that it removes other species that may keep such pests or diseases in check. These things don’t build up in nature precisely because in nature you never see monoculture. The result is that to make everything “work” massive amounts of time, energy and resources must be applied because it’s all cure and no prevention.[/quote]
That’s hilarious. On one hand you say, [quote]I don’t respect a culture simply for existing. I respect it based upon its contributions to wider humanity.[/quote] And claim, [quote]they were destroyed … precisely because their “culture” didn’t really have much to offer anyone [/quote].
On the other hand, your waffling on like your a big expert on the latest methods of permaculture as opposed to monoculture when that’s exactly what the aborigines have been doing for hundreds of years. The irony is, if you got off your high horse about your superiour civilization and asked a bit advice from a local aboriginal plot farmer, you would undoubtedly find it very helpful.
BTW, i do apologize for my assumption (think it was just the one wasn’t it, you said there were lots) that you didn’t get down south much - seems you do.
You two guys live less than 10km from each other as the crow flies.
[quote=“dulan drift”][quote=“Confuzius”][quote=“dulan drift”]
They were here before you were - i’s it too much to ask to just show them a little bit of respect?[/quote]
This argument (IMHO) gets used WAY too much and makes NO sense.
If we want everyone to “go back to where they came from” and live on their “native soil”, then we all gotto go back to Africa. [/quote]
Congratulations! You have perfectly demonstrated the classic give-away sign of feeble-mindedness in an argument.
[/quote]
Congratulations and merry xmas to you sir for displaying the daftness of a chicken!
[quote=“dulan drift”]
It’s like, textbook.
Here’s how you do it.
- You take the argument presented to you: ‘Just show them a little respect’ (my words),
- Then you hope no one is looking [/quote]
Extra daftness…no one looking? Um…its a forum, they kinda havta look (or do we have forumosa for the hearing impaired? that would actually be pretty swell).
[quote=“dulan drift”]
while you change that into an extreme radical position that’s actually totally of your own invention: [/quote]
Thats actually what you have been doing to my posts all along! You are quite versed in this technique, bravo! :bravo: You did the same the first few pages of the Banning steel traps thread too…(ever heard of projection?)
[quote=“dulan drift”]
‘If we want everyone to “go back to where they came from” and live on their “native soil” then we all gotto go back to Africa!’ (your quote - dunno whose quotes those ones are that you’ve put in inverted commas) [/quote]
Yup, all my words. So tell me this, do you NOT feel that the aboriginals here in Taiwan have a special right to this land because they were here first? (that is what I was actually attacking…I tend to take the underlying logic of people’s positions then follow it down to its inevitable path to prove how it makes no sense). If you feel people have a special right because they are “native” to a place…then the only place any of us (us being the human beings, the daft chickens, well, I do not know where they are native to) is Africa.
[quote=“dulan drift”]
3. Then finally, you bounce off that as a ruse for slipping in your own nutty radical counterbalance mantra: ‘Adapt or die!’ (your quote)[/quote]
Its a fact of life…do you not agree that those who do not adapt will perish? Perhaps you do.
[quote=“dulan drift”]
It’s great actually – make a very nice example for any teachers out there to show their students next time they are doing argumentative writing. Thanks for that.[/quote]
All these lovely posts provide plenty a lovely example of taking things out of context, strawmen and blowing things out of proportion when butt hurt.