Should cats be kept outdoors in Taiwan?

Life Pets & Domestic Animals
1

Should cats be kept outdoors in Taiwan

  • Generally, Yes
  • Generally, No

0 voters

[color=green]Note: This topic was split from [/color]this thread.

[quote=“Stray Dog”]
Anyway, many thanks for your helpful comments at this time. If you want to discuss this further, please do so in another thread. Thanks.[/quote]There is no need to be sarcastic, Sean. Not like I can help you much with this from Kaohsiung, and you know that I’m saddened the cat went missing, and I strongly hope that the cat will be found, or will return.

I feel compelled, however, to tell others that this is the risk one takes when letting their cat go outside in the city. For the sake of other cats! Same as you feel compelled to tell others about the risks of buying animals from breeders when someone post about his cat that has FIP. These comments are never helpful because it’s a bit late to warn someone of certain risks once the damage is already done. But they do have the effect of making others aware that this is the chance they take when buying an animal from a breeder, or when letting their cat wander outside in the city.

If you disagree, and want to advocate letting cats out who meow or scratch to go outside, that’s your choice, but I won’t.

I can see your point about not wanting to be cruel to a cat by keeping it indoor. 5 years of happy life might be better than 15 years being frustrated. It might be… The thing is, the cat in question is 18 months old. I think that speaks for itself. Cats should not be let outside in the city as it’s a heartbreak waiting to happen. Sooner than later in some cases…

[quote]This is a situation that we know all too well about, of course. We prefer to give the owner the right advice as per their situation, but allow them to make their own decision.[/quote]More or less, Sean. If someone adopts a dog from AT and makes the decision to cage the dog 24/7, will you let him/her make that decision?

No offense intended whatsoever, but in my book, letting a cat go outside is just too big a risk, and if adopters decide to do that, we most likely will repossess the cat if the adopter refuses to amend the risk they pose to the animal.

This said, there are some cats who will become extremely frustrated if they can’t go outside, and perhaps that’s the case with your cat. The thing is, it’s letting the cat out in the first place(or rescued street cat) that leads to the cat’s need to go outside/frustration if unable to go outside.

The bottom line is that cats should not be let outside in the city, especially in a city where thousands of stray dogs roam about. That’s all I’m saying.

I don’t know the situation with your cat, nor with the currently missing cat. Like I said, some rescued cats, or cats owned by people who blindly let them out at a young age develop a very strong need to go outside. These are the only exceptions to the rule, IMO. Other cats should be strictly indoor pets unless you live in a country side that is free of predators, and there are no such places in Taiwan. Some outdoor cats are lucky, others not so lucky.

Looking forward to hear the family is re-united. :pray:

2

These off-topic posts should be split off into another thread. Sean’s trying to find his girlfriend’s cat. Let’s stick to that, no? Bobepine, it would be great if you could one day realize that people have different views about certain things and that sometimes those views are equally valid even if we might disagree with them.
Personally I think it’s astonishingly cruel to keep a cat confined to the house for its entire life, although I know many people do just that, and good luck to them. It’s not something I’d ever condone, though.

3

[quote=“sandman”]These off-topic posts should be split off into another thread. Sean’s trying to find his girlfriend’s cat. Let’s stick to that, no? Bobepine, it would be great if you could one day realize that people have different views about certain things and that sometimes those views are equally valid even if we might disagree with them.[/quote]And I wish you 'd understand exactly the same. Why is posting my opinion deemed as if I invalidate other’s opinions? It’s my bloody opinion, nothing more. I’m allowed to have my own opinion, too, you know- or should I just agree in order not to invalidate someone else’s opinion? We have an 18 months old kitten running about on the street, and I wish the owners would have kept it indoors. It’s upsetting.

[quote]Personally I think it’s astonishingly cruel to keep a cat confined to the house for its entire life, although I know many people do just that, and good luck to them. It’s not something I’d ever condone, though.[/quote]You say that keeping a cat indoors is astonishingly cruel, and I say that they should not go out because it’s too dangerous. Which statement sounds more condoning to you, Sandman?

I just said that when you let cats go out, the chances that they will not come back are great, here, in Taiwan. I really don’t understand why you would tell me that by posting my own opinion I show a lack of understanding that other people have different views that are equally valid. I have my opinion, and it’s valid, you have yours, and it’s also valid. No need to tell me that I purposely invalidate other’s opinions, because I can swing that right back at you for saying just that.

Besides, I fully agree with you, cats are animals that belong frolicking in grass, up some trees and out in the yard, but not on the street. I just think that Taiwan is a very dangerous place for cats, and you can’t deny that. That’s it. That’s all.

Again, I wish the cat and its family all the best, and I hope things turn out OK.

4

Where I lived in Canada the eagles or raccoons got most outdoor cats.

I don’t know why keeping them in is considered cruel. Never heard that before. Housecats don’t like going outside. They get scared and nervous. Maybe repeated outings would help but maybe not. My cat has a great view out the windows and occassionally goes out on the balcony and to the pet shop to get his nails clipped. He seems fine.

5

My cats don’t go outside. If they had been outside over CNY they would be dead meat as they had hysterics with every firework explosion. They are ex-strays and very nervous, they would simply run off, panic and be dead. The signs of incarceration syndrome are purring, leg-rubbing, glossy coats and sooky dribbles.

6

Bobepine wrote [quote]Besides, I fully agree with you, cats are animals that belong frolicking in grass, up some trees and out in the yard, but not on the street. I just think that Taiwan is a very dangerous place for cats, and you can’t deny that. That’s it. That’s all. [/quote]

So, would it be best to educate people that they shouldn’t have cats as pets?

7

i thought the main reason for not letting cats out is that they eat things… everything smaller than them.

but then i come from a very different country to taiwan. here it is not a concern of what they may eat (there’s not much in the city apart from rats of the land and rats of the air (pigeons, the vile feral things) but perhaps what may eat them.

and i guess that letting a cat out is a bit like abandoning a penguin in the desert: not quite the right environment. plus, all the strays probably carry toxoplasmosis and FIV, so there’s no way i would want them licking the arse of MY cat.

maybe on a lead: some cats like that.

8

I don’t see what makes Taiwan more dangerous than any other country - instead I would think it depends on the immediate area and conditions where the cat is living, in whatever country.

9

Nah, I was being unscientific, I suppose. But I don’t think your second part is accurate, either. My three very much like being outside, unless its cold or there’s an offchance of some food inside. One of them never comes in unless its below 10 degrees, another comes in to sleep on the bed at night. All but one were housecats in an apartment for the first few years of their lives and I can attest that they were MUCH happier when we moved to a house and they could be outside.

10

Nah, I was being unscientific, I suppose. But I don’t think your second part is accurate, either. My three very much like being outside, unless its cold or there’s an offchance of some food inside. One of them never comes in unless its below 10 degrees, another comes in to sleep on the bed at night. All but one were housecats in an apartment for the first few years of their lives and I can attest that they were MUCH happier when we moved to a house and they could be outside.[/quote]

I guess they will eventually get over their nervousness and probably enjoy the outdoors, but if they never get that chance I don’t think they are suffering. Cats who have gotten used to being outside would suffer if confined. I agree with that.

My current cat would probably enjoy outdoor life as he was born on the streets. Bought him a NT3000 bed and he prefers to sleep in a cardboard box unless it’s super cold. Maybe I should take him out hiking with me. :slight_smile:

11

[color=blue]well, my cats are indoor cats, except that they play on the terraces and balconies and love to make people nervous by jumping onto the wall and the air conditioner shelf. They stay in their world, my home, our private world, and on occasion get to go out to see the doctor or the occasional visit to friends. But these are my cats and it was my choice because I’m in an apartment. If I had a house with a yard, I might let them out to play. For the most part, they stick around and won’t wander off. If you have the kind of cat that wanders off, then you should move to the countryside! If you live in the countryside, then it’s fine to let your pets out. There is always the danger of cars and dog-eaters, but that’s true anywhere. I had a cat in the USA who was hit by a car and I was devastated, so I thought I would keep my next cat indoors. But then the next cat wanted to go out. She lived for 18 years in the same neighborhood and was never in any danger. I have friends here in Taichung who let their cats out. I don’t. It’s a personal choice to take the risk. [/color] [color=orange]By the way, all pets that are let out should be neutered first.[/color]

12

So, would it be best to educate people that they shouldn’t have cats as pets?[/quote]I find your question to be quite shallow. As noted by a few people, if cats are used to be indoor, they do not suffer. In fact, a big majority of house cats do not feel a need to go outside at all. If the cat is just as happy, and yet a whole lot safer, why habituate the cat to go outside? It’s too risky, but like Douglas said, it’s a personal choice to take the risk or not. That’s precisely what my point was [quote=“I”]I feel compelled, however, to tell others that this is the risk one takes when letting their cat go outside in the city.[/quote] Funny that somehow such a simple opinion is deemed to be invalidating dissident opinions… :s

There are excusable exceptions to that as I said. Some cats do get extremely frustrated indoors, but in my experience it is very rare. As also mentioned, even former stray cats(Not all former stray cats) eventually grow quite fond of the security and of the dependable attention/food source in their new found indoor world. I honestly think that the big majority of cats who become dependent of going outside to be happy are the ones whose owners have let them get habituated to go in and out at will. Strays generally have it too hard not to grow fond of a safe and plentiful home.

So to get back to your question Almas John, how does that fit in with saying that I agree that cats belong outdoor? Simple. One can not crave what he doesn’t know, as unfortunate as it may be that he doesn’t know what he’s missing. Furthermore, read below.

[quote=“Rascal”]I don’t see what makes Taiwan more dangerous than any other country - instead I would think it depends on the immediate area and conditions where the cat is living, in whatever country.[/quote]That is a very good point. I’m sure that some “settings” are suitable for having outdoor cats in Taiwan. Sandman’s setting has proven to be a good example of that, until now anyways. While I’m sure others are blessed with similar favorable conditions, it’s not common, and that’s why I worded the poll as “generally” yes, or no.

Do the math. Taiwan is 36000 sq. km. and it has anywhere from 200 000 to 600 000 stray dogs roaming about. This means that Taiwan has at best 5+ stray dogs per square kilometer, all the way up to a possible 16+ stray dogs per square kilometer. I could add to that, but if that alone doesn’t make Taiwan especially dangerous for outdoor cats, I don’t know what will do it for you. :wink:

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[quote=“bobepine”]

So to get back to your question Almas John, how does that fit in with saying that I agree that cats belong outdoor? Simple. One can not crave what he doesn’t know, as unfortunate as it may be that he doesn’t know what he’s missing. [/quote]

That’s a good point. During the first few months of my stay in Taiwan, my roommate found a half dead kitten on the street, and managed to nurse it back to health. She turned out to be very happy and content living indoors (we were on the 5th floor of an apartment building), and despite having a bad leg (which eventually had to be amputated) would race around the apartment, chasing balls (and roaches sometimes). We tried to take her up to the roof to “get some space”, but she hated the open space… she’d slink around on her belly looking for a place to hide as soon as she was out in the open and would be very unhappy and scared until she was returned to the apartment, whereupon she’d revert to her happy, playful self again. She never displayed any of the signs or behaviour of compulsive, repetetive stress-related disorders from being “confined” to the apartment. She seemed very happy, content and comfortable to be inside.

She now lives in Canada, and has finally adjusted to open space and is happy to play outside in the yard with the other cats at my friend’s place. She even likes the snow, so they tell me.

With my own kitten that I rescued from the streets, it was the same story. She never appeared to be frustrated to be inside. She seemed very happy, playful and content within the confines of the apartment.

Now that she’s in South Africa, she lives an outdoor life. It took a week or so for her to develop the courage to get out of the house and actually explore the garden, but after she did, she fell in love with the outdoors. However, if she’d never known about gardens, she wouldn’t know what she was missing, would she? It sounds cruel to us, but thats because we’re anthropomorphising and projecting our own experiences of living indoors and outdoors (and thus cultivating a desire to live outdoors) onto the cat. Cats definitely need space; they are naturally territorial animals; however, they are not tigers - their territory need not consist of a vast area. A largish apartment will usually suffice, as long as they have not been brought up as outdoor cats.

Although, even “outdoor cats” don’t seem to mind living indoors that much. We have two previously feral cats living in my house here. One came from a restaurant that she used to live outside (until it was closed down), the other was a real wild fellow who started appearing in our garden at night, looking for scraps. Eventually, he got bold enough to come into the house, and after time, became quite friendly and domestic. Both of these cats now ONLY go into the garden to use the toilet, and prefer to spend most of their time relaxing indoors.

[quote=“bobepine”]

[quote=“Rascal”]I don’t see what makes Taiwan more dangerous than any other country - instead I would think it depends on the immediate area and conditions where the cat is living, in whatever country.[/quote]That is a very good point. I’m sure that some “settings” are suitable for having outdoor cats in Taiwan. Sandman’s setting has proven to be a good example of that, until now anyways. While I’m sure others are blessed with similar favorable conditions, it’s not common, and that’s why I worded the poll as “generally” yes, or no.

Do the math. Taiwan is 36000 sq. km. and it has anywhere from 200 000 to 600 000 stray dogs roaming about. This means that Taiwan has at best 5+ stray dogs per square kilometer, all the way up to a possible 16+ stray dogs per square kilometer. I could add to that, but if that alone doesn’t make Taiwan especially dangerous for outdoor cats, I don’t know what will do it for you. :wink:[/quote]

Within the first few weeks of living in Taiwan, I saw a cat being attacked by a pack of stray dogs. I ran to chase them away, but when I got there it was already too late, the cat was dead. The worst thing was, a bunch of people had been standing around laughing at the whole thing, not doing a thing to stop it… Geez, was I pissed off :fume:

And it’s not only the stray dogs, but the constant stream of cars and scooters, the diseases carried by the ferals, and the number of people who seem to be either terrified of or just viciously hate (or both) cats and enjoy throwing rocks at them, shooting at them with BB guns, poisoning them, etc etc. Unlss you live in a sparsely populated area with lots of outdoor space, I’d say people are taking quite a risk if they let their cats go outdoors.

If your area is “cat friendly”, by all means, let your cat out. But I suspect that most of urban Tawian, and even a lot of rural Taiwan is not at all “cat friendly”, unfortunately.

14

My own cat has to go outside. If I walk the dogs without her, she cries like she’s being murdered until we get back. Sometimes she does it even when the dogs and I are inside. My apartment is pretty big, but still she cries relentlessly if she can’t go out. She has slid open doors and windows to get out, and scratched her way through all manner of obstacles to do so. To keep her indoors is cruel - 100 percent guaranteed. So I took her out on a leash (a great compromise). When I moved to a safer area, on the first floor, she realised her dream of becoming an outdoors cat, and I accepted that it was more risky than being an indoors cat, but that the risks of being outside were uncertain and the stress and unhappiness of being cooped up were certain. That’s how I made my mind up, and that’s how I explain it to adopters (if they are adopting a cat who craves the outdoors).

Muffin, my girlfriend’s cat, was taken in from living on the street and confined at the Animals Taiwan holding centre cat house. She went crazy trying to get out. When the dogs in the adjoining room were let out to exercise, she would squeeze through the bars of the cat room, shoot upstairs, and head off out onto the balcony or roof and into the trees that reach them. If I tried to keep her inside, she would miaow incessantly; the other cats in the cat house don’t, even though they were all found on the street, and their adopters will be encouraged to keep them inside (as would anyone living in an area with fast traffic or other obvious hazards).

My girlfriend lives in a narrow, quiet lane in ShiDa, a lane already with four or five friendly neighbourhood outdoors cats, and no stray dogs. She tried keeping Muffin indoors, but the stress was obvious on the cat, and she would often make breaks for the open door. This was something that my girlfriend had to think long and hard about, but decided, as I would, that the kindest thing for the cat would be a life of freedom and enjoyment of the outdoors that she loves so much. When she was finally allowed to venture outside, she stayed very close to home, and was always within earshot of rustled keys and so would greet her owner every time she came home. It seems that, even though she has been missing for a few days, she is still in the immediate vicinity.

In my opinion, cats should only go outside if (a) they really, really want to, and/or (b) you live in a low-risk area, for at least 3 or 4 blocks in each direction. My family have always had cats, and all of them were outdoors cats (when we lived on the edge of town, basically in the country). Only one of my family’s cats got into trouble, and he recovered from that injury very quickly. He had a huge range, and would head off into the neighbouring farms to hunt rabbits and hares, and on at least two occasions he was successful. This is what he was born to do: be a cat.

For my own and my girlfriend’s cats, it would be cruel to keep them inside; for many others, it would not, and they are of course far safer inside, although not 100 percent so.

BTW, I couldn’t respond to the poll - the question and answers were a little skewed.

15

This guy thinks they should stay inside:

16

“I aint goin ouside, mofafuka.”

17

Tell that to a cat in heat! :stuck_out_tongue:

18

Stray Dog,

I find your post to make good sense. As I said, some cats do need to go outside, and as I noted, I am/was not familiar with your cat/girlfriend’s cat situation. There is a difference between making a judgment on your situation, and warning eople of the risks Taiwan urban areas pose for outdoor cats. I hope you can make the distinction.

[quote=“Stray Dog”]BTW, I couldn’t respond to the poll - the question and answers were a little skewed.[/quote]Perhaps you can explain why the poll is biased?

[quote]In my opinion, cats should only go outside if (a) they really, really want to, and/or (b) you live in a low-risk area, for at least 3 or 4 blocks in each direction.[/quote]That sounds like a “generally No,” vote to me if I consider that you are well aware that areas with 3-4 blocks free of stray dogs in Taiwan are “generally” very hard to find.

19

The poll asks if cats should be kept outside. I only think that’s a good idea for CNR cats. Allowed outside, perhaps?

And simple yeses or noes don’t cover my own response, methinks. A depends would have been my option.

Also, to escape her incarceration, my own cat has to cross over a moat teeming with snapping crocodiles in the form of 55 excited dogs and puppies. More await her further beyond, but she has many places to easily escape. Most of the dogs don’t seem interested in her. Again, I factored this into the equation before making my decision.

There are a couple of free-roaming dogs in Muffin’s surrounding neighbourhood, but given the number of happy, relaxed free-roaming cats they coexist with, it doesn’t seem to have been a problem in the past.

20

[quote=“Stray Dog”]The poll asks if cats should be kept outside. I only think that’s a good idea for CNR cats. Allowed outside, perhaps?[/quote]I suppose you’re right. I did not name the thread, a moderator or admin did. I just used the same words in the poll. I think readers get the picture that it means “allowed.” :laughing:

[quote]And simple yeses or noes don’t cover my own response, methinks. A depends would have been my option.[/quote]That would have been a good option to add, I agree. But I don’t see how this makes the poll biased since you do have the option to not vote. I’ll go as far as admitting that the poll could be more thoughtful. But since we are now discussing semantics over the thread title, I’d say that the term “skewed” is even more inappropriate. :wink:

[quote]There are a couple of free-roaming dogs in Muffin’s surrounding neighborhood, but given the number of happy, relaxed free-roaming cats they coexist with, it doesn’t seem to have been a problem in the past.[/quote]You can describe the qualities of your outdoor cat surroundings all you want, but it is still more risky than indoor by a big margin. That’s the bottom line.

I mean, when you finally get your girlfriend’s cat back, will she let it go outside again? Will you accept the risk of having the cat go away for days on end while spending more time putting up traps, posters everywhere again and again, etc.? I’m not sure I see the logic in that, and I know you really don’t appreciate hearing this, but it’s the reality you are facing. What will you do? This 18 months kitten has been on the street for 5 days now, will you take that risk again? Let’s be realistic for a minute… Being friendly and all, this cat could very well be picked up by someone who lives 20 miles away and who will resort to caging that cat for the next ten years. Will you really take that chance over “caging” it inside your own house? That’s craziness.

I personally discourage anyone who considers taking that risk, and I would not adopt out a cat to someone who would. Out of nearly 20 cats we adopted out so far(and countless other cats I have met in Taiwan), not one suffered indoor. So while there are cats such as yours who need to go outside, it’s a tiny minority, and I’ll know when comes time to adopt out a cat like that to make suitable alterations to our adoption contract.

Here’s wishing that Muffin comes back soon.