Yeah, I get accused of being too PC all the time. 
[Edited - moved on 
]
Post removed. I hit quote instead of edit to fix the typos in my last post.
eh what?
Powerfully Caustic? 
eh what?[/quote]
Fuck off why donât you? Goddamn Kiwis.
Hmm ⌠should Scots be kept outside in Taiwan ⌠now thereâs an interesting topic.
I dont write much in here anymore as i constantly see arguements and bitching, not really what i want to spend my time doing.
I donât feel stray dog was being pissy in his first post, he was just pointing out that his thread was to find his girlfriendâs cat and he didnât want things to get off track and suggested a new thread for the topic.
Everyone is allowed their own opinion, if bobepine doesnât want his cats or cats he has saved and adopted to be let outside then fair enough. I understand his arguements.
If stray dog and others feel that their cat has a better life outside then also fair enough. I think it is neither cruel to keep your cat inside or let it out.
Of course there are dangers out there, but there are dangers everywhere, we just have to asses the dangers and decide what is right for our animal.
I have a cat who canât pee or poop, i have to do it for her morning and night, so of course she is unable to go outside as i cant have her not come back for a night as she would die.
i live on the 5th floor so i feel i canât have a normal cat (a cat that is able to jump to high places) as i would be constantly scared it would fall off the balcony, this is my personal fear and i know many cats who go out on the balcony and donât try to jump off.
once i move to the more countryside areas and have a first floor apartment, i will start a CNR for my area for cats and i will feed them in my area, if they want to come in the house then they may, if they want to stay outside then thatâs fine too. I will get them vaccinated regularly and watch their health. A cat is a very independant animal and i wouldnât want to take that independance away from it.
I feel saddened when so many people in here who do so much good work for these animals continue to argue with eachother. We really need to channel all our anger and do something good with it.
Come on everyone⌠group hug⌠come on hold hands and sing Cumbyya(canât spell it)
When all is said and done, the ones who want to keep thier cats as outdoor cats will and those who want to keep their cats inside will.
well thatâs it for me for another couple of months
me again.
completely off topic but if anyone knows of first floor houses to rent in the mountain areas of mucha, hsin tien etc let me know.
I need to make this dream come true of helping the cats etc. I have 5 dogs, 1 cat, one dog waiting and one cat waiting.
:help:
[quote=âUKbikerchicâ]
I feel saddened when so many people in here who do so much good work for these animals continue to argue with eachother. [/quote]Me too. A great deal at that. [quote]We really need to channel all our anger and do something good with it. [/quote]It really aggravates me to look at Muffinâs picture, and to think that this very vulnerable pet has been on the street on her own for six days now. Just look at her. Does she really look ready and capable of facing the harsh reality of being on the streets on her own? Hell no. It makes me angry, and you are right, my anger could certainly be better channeled. I have no excuses.
Moreover, my tone definitely needs some work. I know, I know⌠I can be quite aggressive and not very friendly in some of my replies when Iâm aggravated. Thatâs something I need to work on. On that, thanks to Tigerman and Truant for some polite insights relevant to just that. And thanks to you, UKbikerchic, for helping me and others see past ourselvesâŚ
Muffin has been gone for a week as of tomorrow. Why arguing semantics not to admit that Muffin is a stray cat, since after all, many efforts are put forth to locate her like responsible people do when their pet strays? As I said, I have my faults, but all of this is also aggravating me to no end.
In fact, most of this thread has been a discussion about semantics. In the end, the chosen term for Muffin is âfree roaming.â The cat is now a stray-free roaming cat until further notice, and I really hope that Sean could see, and admit that this is the risk involved in allowing a cat to go outside. More over, I wish he would warn people of such risks, but what he does is the opposite.
I realise that some cats need to go outside, and that Muffinâs situation is not the result of ill advised deliberation on Seanâs part. I know the owner and Sean mean well, and I know that they are heartbroken and also aggravated at the thought of Muffin being on the street. Itâs truly sad. So why not save others the same heartache? Why not just say that the decisions they made turned out to be very unfavorable for muffins interests despite having the best of intentions. Would that not be a better message to sent out to people who are considering letting their cats outside, if the cats are not dependent of that yet? Would it not be better to just say âwe felt we had absolutely no choice for this particular cat, but the risks are there, and unfortunately things did not work out so well?â But no, instead I hear comments about how a cat is better off living 5 years free as opposed to 15 years indoors in a discussion about an 18 month old cat.
Is Muffinâs predicament not concrete proof of the risks involved in letting a cat out? And thatâs where Seanâs fault lies here, IMOHO. Iâm willing to admit to my faults, but is Sean willing to admit to his faults? And letâs be clear here. Iâm not saying his fault is letting the cat out as I do know that some cats just need to go outside as elegantly pointed out by Tigerman. What Iâm saying is that Muffinâs predicament should be enough to advise against letting cats out unless they are really, really depending on it. But Iâm not seeing any of that, here. Instead, I see comments such as this,(see following quote) making fun of anyone who would advise against taking the risk that could potentially lead a cat to be in the same predicament as Muffin. [quote]One of my cats pulled the iron off the ironing board last night. My GOD! He could have been INJURED! Thatâs it for me. Indoors is simply too dangerous for a cat.[/quote]
So where does that leave us? You guys find it adequate to ridicule my position with statements such as the above and 5 pages of discussing semantics, but youâll hold it against me when I become aggravated and less than polite? It doesnât excuse me of course. But with 72% in favor of keeping cats indoors, I would return Truantâs advice to also re-think your position in order not to burn bridges.
To conclude, my most sincere apologies if I made it sound like you have intentionally put Muffin in a bad spot. I donât think that one second. But remember that the road to hell was paved with good intentions. And Taiwanâs strays are in hell as far as I am concerned.
Reports are that Muffin is doing fine, but we still miss and worry about her. Should it turn out she has been killed, Chris, Iâll be sure to let you know where the grave is so you can go dance on it.
Thank god my girlfriend doesnât read these forums.
[quote]Reports are that Muffin is doing fine, but we still miss and worry about her. Should it turn out she has been killed, Chris, Iâll be sure to let you know where the grave is so you can go dance on it.
[/quote]
Stray Dog, get off your high horse. You know that Bobepine doesnât want to see harm come to the cat. The opposite in fact. Thatâs why heâs so adamant about keeping cats indoors in Taiwan.
[quote=âStray Dogâ]Reports are that Muffin is doing fine, but we still miss and worry about her. Should it turn out she has been killed, Chris, Iâll be sure to let you know where the grave is so you can go dance on it.
Thank god my girlfriend doesnât read these forums.[/quote]
As if I would be cheering if Muffin doesnât come back. 
If this situation is so difficult, and I know it is, then please re-think what you are promoting here so that others donât have to go through the same thing.
Bobepine,
the poll is flawed. It uses the words âKept outsideâ or âKept insideâ.
Those advocating allowing their cat outside, would almost certainly not âkeepâ their cat outside. By contrast, those not allowing their cat outside, are in fact âkeepingâ it inside.
See the difference? You canât use those stats.
Oh BTW, I screwed up the voting anyway and clicked the wrong option(seriously), so youâd need to adjust accordingly anyway.
Yes, i agree that the poll should be âallowed outdoorsâ or ânot allowedâ to give improved statistics. You âkeepâ cows outside (generally); âkeepingâ a cat outside is tantamount to not âhavingâ a cat, isnât it?!
I have two cats that are âallowed outdoorsâ and neither roam very far and I know where both of them are most of the time. Both were rescue kittens (Thanks Rainbow, thanks Brian!) and I would never have taken them in if I planned to keep them inside for perhaps fourteen years. However, I live (almost) in the mountains, and the dangers to cats are significantly less than living in the city, where I just wouldnât have a cat. Saying that, one of the cats has been bitten by a snake, and hawks occasionally swoop into the garden (well, one did, once!) so itâs not all romping in fields of dandelions and feasting on defenseless wildlife in the countryside either. Cats are certainly better off inside if you live in an apartment in the city, I just personally wouldnât do that (because I wouldnât live in the city, not because I think keeping cats inside is cruel). Top Cat might disagree en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Cat
And a friend of mine took her Taipei city (âkept insideâ) cat back to Canada a year or two ago. She rented a farmhouse and the poor cat, bless her, managed to get run over and killed on the one road in the whole effing province!
There are dangers everywhere, and as animals guardians we are obliged to minimise them as much as possible, but I donât think âletting the cat outâ is particularly high on the list of crimes against animals, as long as they are neutered and vaccinated.
UKbikerchic â my current house (2.5 floors) in Shijr suburbs (52ping, slightly damp, with front garden and access to mountains at the back) will be available in a couple of months. Rent is 16,500 a month. PM me if interested!
I canât think of two friends of mine who should be cooperating more, and bickering less, than you two guys. Helping animals in Taiwan is such an uphill battle â letâs try to work together more and put a friendlier face on it, please??? 
[quote=âmagnoliaâ]Yes, i agree that the poll should be âallowed outdoorsâ or ânot allowedâ to give improved statistics.[/quote]Thatâs what the poll was intended to mean originally, so yes, I agree that the poll is flawed in that sense. I had in mind âallowingâ cats outdoors when I wrote the poll. It was a mistake. I should have had âShould cats be kept outdoorsâ in mind, but that didnât make sense at the time; on page 1 of this thread⌠
(read below)
[quote=âOn page 4 of this thread, Stray Dogâ]The term free-roaming is one I find best to describe dogs and cats who have access to or permanently reside in the outdoors. Muffin is a free-roaming cat now, was, and will be.[/quote]That amounts to âkeepingâ a cat outdoors to me.
[quote=âTruantâ]âŚthe poll is flawed. It uses the words âKept outsideâ or âKept insideâ⌠âŚThose advocating allowing their cat outside, would almost certainly not âkeepâ their cat outside.[/quote]That is correct, IMO. An overwhelming majority against âkeepingâ cats outdoors in Taiwan is imminent. Much more so than if the question relates to âallowingâ cats outdoors. So yes, the poll is flawed. 
[quote=âDragonbonesâ]I canât think of two friends of mine who should be cooperating more, and bickering less[/quote]I understand your point, DB, and I appreciate it. The thing is, I donât think advocating against âkeepingâ cats outdoors in Taiwan is bickering. I think itâs necessary. I disagree with âallowingâ cats outdoors, never mind keeping them outdoors.
And if people are going to compare their 18 month old cat to a 26 years old person in term of dependency to determine either the cat can or can not be allowed or kept outdoors, I think something needs to be said about that as well.(read below)
Now if anyone is willing to make an effort to make sense, to be polite, and to âput a friendlier faceâ/ending on this discussion, Iâm up for it. I really am. But if you are going to advocate âkeepingâ cats outdoors in Taiwan, especially in urban areas(free roaming pets in urban areas), or if you are going to compare an 18 month old cat to a 26 year old human, then be prepared to face a very strong opposition.
Not a one of us has all the answers.
Your passion for animals is a great thing. Its what drives you to want to help them, and to help them. Your passion can be infectious, in a wonderful way. But, remember⌠passion is a double-edged sword.
When it comes to allowing cats outside, I prefer to follow RSPCA guidelines, as I have been throughout this thread. From the RSPCA website, animal care section:
[quote]
What do cats need?
* Companionship - to be with other cats or people for at least part of the day.
* A balanced diet - make sure there are no bones in your cat's food.
* A constant supply of fresh, clean water.
[b]* A garden or safe place to play and exercise every day, away from busy roads.[/b]
* Somewhere warm and cosy to sleep.
* To be brushed regularly, particularly when shedding their coats. Long-haired cats need to be brushed every day.
* A scratching post.
* Help to clean their teeth. You can brush or rub their teeth with special toothpaste. They also need to have their teeth checked regularly by the vet.
[b]* To come and go as they please - a cat flap is ideal.[/b]
* To be trained to use a litter tray.
* To be microchipped in case they get lost.
* Cat neutering should be carried out as early as possible in order to avoid unwanted litters. Most cats are sexually mature at six months, but some cats can become pregnant as early as five months. Therefore, the ideal age to neuter your cat is between four and five months.
* To be taken to a vet if they are ill or injured.
* Injections to prevent certain serious diseases.
* Worming and regular flea treatments.
* To be looked after when you are away on holiday. [/quote]
My girlfriendâs cat isnât missing because she went outside; she is missing because she wasnât wearing her collar and she was out at night - she has most likely been mistaken for a stray, particularly as she has one ear clipped (an indicator that cat has been CNRed).
In light of this, once we find the cat, her owner will probably still allow her outside for exercise and stimulation, as she lives in a very cat-friendly neighbourhood, but only in the daytime, and only while she is wearing a collar.
I find this to be the most sensible and humane approach. My own cat goes missing for days on end regularly, and, as the days go by, I admit to having selfish thoughts about never letting her outside again. But I soon come round to common sense. Itâs a matter of my stress v. her stress (my worry while sheâs out v. her distress at being confined), and I respect her rights as an animal and so give her the freedom she craves - and if she never comes back one night, I will accept that this is one of the risks of allowing a cat outdoors, but that giving her freedom to roam was the most humane option for that cat in that environment (we live in the quiet suburbs, practically in the country). It comes at the expense of my losing sleep, of course, but at the luxury of my catâs desired freedom to roam. I have to be unselfish.
Others I know who would love to see their cats free to come and go as they please realise that their neighbourhood really is not the safest place for a cat to roam and therefore keep them inside. All things considered, this is again the most humane decision. Most of these people seek to relocate in order to allow their cats their freedom, and two I know are moving to the French countryside specifically with this in mind.
Itâs not difficult to conclude this thread: make the best decision you can for your cat, based on the individual cat and your particular neighbourhood, and be confident that you have made the best decision you could for that cat, no matter how things turn out (young Australians keep enjoying the healthy surf lifestyle regardless of the risks, because for them, life isnât worth living without it ).
Be nice to your cats, everyone.
From the RSPCA; What do cats need:
âSafeâ and âaway from busy roadsâ being the key words there, I think. Urban areas are nothing but busy roads in Taiwan. I really donât think that the streets are a âsafe place to play and exercise,â unfortunately. I guess thatâs my conclusion for this thread; I fully agree with the following: [quote=âStray Dogâ]Others I know who would love to see their cats free to come and go as they please realise that their neighbourhood really is not the safest place for a cat to roam and therefore keep them inside. All things considered, this is again the most humane decision.[/quote]
I honestly doubt that the RSPCA would recommend a cat flap for most of Taiwanâs highly populated cities and surrounding urban areas. Too much traffic, too many stray dogs. What they describe there is the perfect conditions for cats(safe, and away from busy roads), and I fully agree. But IMOHO, Taiwan generally doesnât have the perfect conditions for free roaming cats, by a long shot at that.
[quote=âStray Dogâ]be confident that you have made the best decision you could for that cat, no matter how things turn out[/quote]Iâd prefer if we would be more unselfish, and re-think our decisions when they do not turn out well for others, as opposed to being obstinate. It doesnât mean that we should feel shameful if things do not turn out well. Not at all. But I think we need to learn, and adapt our premises when that happens.
And thatâs pretty much what you are doing by making sure Muffin doesnât go out without a collar/identification anymore, and by allowing her outside during daytime only. I disagree with you strongly, as I would not do that, but I respect your opinion. I hope Muffin comes back soon, and I hope that things work out better that way.
All the best.