Thanks MM. I PM’d you. I’m happy to comment on any aspect of the site, but I think it’s best if I say as little about bobepine as possible.
But we’d be much more likely to see his ass when he was quiltless, right?
But we’d be much more likely to see his ass when he was quiltless, right?[/quote]
Nice catch. 
I called BP not too long ago when I was in a rut and I’ll tell you this; he is one of the most understanding and open people that I’ve had the priviledge of speaking to on F.com. He’s out for what’s good and, if I may, doesn’t much give a hoot other than that. I’m sure he’s laughing his ass off at some of the responses - all the while sticking up for what he believes in. So what?
Grain of salt.
This site has it’s fair share of assholes and many of you consider me to be off the goddamn hook and a total wanker but…in the end: you don’t know me. I’m sure to a certain extent he feels the same.
There are a few things you left out of the equation when you made the above assumption, Maoman. If I may, I will tell you what they are.
1-I don’t hold grudges. I was previously banned before you accepted my application to become a moderator. I read all the stuff in the hidden forums that was posted back when I was banned, and I never said a peep about it. Moreover, I treated all the moderators who had posted nasty things about me in the mods forum with respect. Water under the bridge is what it was. I moderated for a while and I did not like it so I respectfully resigned. I did a very decent job while I was wearing the green hat, and I also spent a lot of time organizing the Pets forum. I went through every thread and I amalgamated all the informative threads into one announcement thread. I also moved all adoption posts into the adoption forum when it was inaugurated. Only a few weeks ago, I updated the stickies and added a bunch of new links to newer threads that have been posted in the Pets form. As of now, I’m still monitoring these forums and I plan to keep the sticky threads updated as new threads come up. I know it’s not much, but it certainly doesn’t look like I’m one to hold grudges is what I’m saying.
The same goes for my recent suspension. Here’s an excerpt of an email communication I have had with a current mod only days after being suspended. About ten days ago: [quote=“bobepine”]Anyway… he’s the boss, and I pissed him off, I guess…
Mostly, I can be a stubborn idiot online, and that’s the short of what happened. This was all pretty silly and I should have just let it go.[/quote]Does that really sound like I’m upset with you for suspending my account? Water under the bridge…
In brief, I disagree with your decision to suspend my account, but your assumption that I would lash out on my first day back about something completely unrelated is far fetched. What I said about calling others jerks, and about you leading the tone, about the “big boys,” about women not posting as a result, etc, I certainly would have posted even if you did not suspend me. Sorry. 
2-Another thing to consider, and I think you would agree, I’ve been rather “involved” in the kind of discussions that took place in this thread over the years. I could not post when the thread was active because I was suspended. I think you know very well that I would have added my two cents had I not had my hands tied. When I read MM’s initial post, I thought good for him for saying it because many people think the exact same thing including many former moderators who have seen the inside of the site, but no one dares to say it. I certainly would have taken this where MM left it because I think he hit the nail on the head.
You may not have noticed, but I used the term “big boys” a few times in the last few months, and it was clearly suggesting that the site has become a “friend’s club.” Comes to show how my post in this thread certainly isn’t resulting from your decision to suspend my account.
3-The last thing I think you should consider before assuming that I’m upset with you and just lashing out because you think I’m upset is quite simple, and it’s two fold. Firstly, I could have easily said what I posted in less than half the words I used. I had a lot of time to think about what I wanted to say, and I chose to compare the way the site is run with how I used to run a business at the risk of being long winded. While some may disagree with the analogy, I think it’s perfect. Sure the site is not a business, but given the shear size of it in such a small country, I think it calls for the same level of professionalism from the boss as a business does. Sure you’re not a hired manager, you are the owner. But the end result from your management, positive or negative, is the same as if you were just hired to do the job. Sure you are not making money from this, but are you not profiting from it? And I don’t mean financially. I mean aren’t you satisfied with what you’ve achieved? Then why not take it a step further by cleaning house and acting professional?
I used the analogy because despite having had to realize what I was doing wrong, I did turn things around and made it right. I had the potential to do it, and I think you have the potential to do the same with Forumosa. Not once did I mention that you can’t live up to your responsibilities. In fact, what I’m saying is that you seem oblivious of the influences and implications of your role in leading this community. My post is nothing but tough love… No, it’s true. I don’t dislike you, in fact it’s the other way around. But I think you are repeating the same mistakes and it’s hurting the site’s ability to become a much better resource, and to become a hell of a lot busier, with more women posting for one; something Forumosa could certainly use…
If you don’t want to address my posts, it’s OK. Just don’t suspend me for saying what I think politely and within the rules. But if you are going to address anything I wrote, maybe you could just address the following:
1- Why should you allow yourself to call posters jerks and such, if you will warn and suspend others for doing the same? Why do you enforce rules about respect if you choose not to be respectful to other users yourself and let the moderators do the same as has been clearly identified in this thread?
2- What kind of an example do you think this is to other users and moderators?
3- To what extent do you figure the example shown by the site leader impacts on the site as a whole as far as the general tone is concerned?
4- And more on topic, to what extent do you figure that the tone on this site may be responsible for women not posting here?
5- What other reasons would you attribute to the lack of women posting here (aside from the fact that foreign women are fewer than men in Taiwan which is disproportionate of the ratio of male and females seen on Forumosa). And do you think that even some “boys” would refrain from posting for the same reasons?
Secondly(I said that the last thing I wish you would consider was twofold…), I have one more thing to say. To do that, I need to quote Tigerman. [quote=“Tigerman”]I didn’t give up on the site. I still like it. I like lots of the people here… you included. I like F.com events. Its a good site, overall. Its not perfect. Sometimes people get irritated with each other and get snarky at each other. But I wouldn’t say that the overall tone is a problem. At least, its not a big important problem.
Anyway, its not my site. I don’t spend my money to run it. I don’t spend my time to maintain it. I don’t spend my time to moderate it.
I’m just bored today.[/quote]
Well Mr. Tigerman, I did not give up on the site, either, and I think the tone is a problem. In other words, I respectfully disagree with you. I think it is the main reason why women do not post, it’s the reason my wife doesn’t post(trust me on that) and I don’t think I should be ridiculed for saying so as you have done. I don’t think I should be ridiculed for merely agreeing with Maoman that the buck does indeed stop with him. If this problem is to improve(not enough women posting because of the prevailing tone), it has to start at the administrative level; it has to start with Maoman moderating himself and leading the way. If you reply to this, TM, I will not respond. Not that I don’t want to, but because I don’t want to end up banned. You’re a tough cookie…
I like the site, and while it may not be obvious, my critical feedback is just an honest account of what I see as being the reason why the site has very few women posting actively, and I go right to the root of the problem by pointing the finger at administration. At least, that’s where I really think the problem lies.
You may not agree, and that’s OK. But please try to be respectful in doing so. While some of you may not like what I have to say, I have not been rude to anyone and that’s the bottom line. I can’t say the same for some of the replies I had the pleasure to read.
To conclude,
I would like to see this place improve and become better. I would like to see more women post. I would like to see this place achieve what I think it can achieve which is much more than what it is doing now, IMOHO. So I offered my feedback. Please deal with it professionally.
That’s it. 10-4.
Chris
I can see this both ways.
First, I am a woman, and I rarely post much outside of Learning Chinese or perhaps trying to answer a question about “where can I find…”? The direction in which the most innocent threads OFTEN go is off-putting to many women. I can handle it if I choose to, but most of the time I simply don’t contribute to that kind of thing because I just don’t want to bother with it. Bobepine has a point in this regard, I think.
But at the same time – the admin and mods are human beings. Even the most loving, fair-minded parent will eventually yell at a child who just KEEPS IT UP. And yes, they might even do it in public. The child could have won all sorts of awards, been a straight-A student and so on, but if the whining or bad behavior persists in the perception of the parent, sooner or later there will come an outburst, perhaps in addition to “rules-based” penalties previously determined.
As well as being a woman, I’m a mod, too. And I get irritated when folks just plain flat-out waste my time, going on and on and ON on issues on which a decision or response has already been given. I’m lucky that it doesn’t happen very often in my forum, but occasionally it still does.
Forumosa is not a company. It’s not a public utility to which everyone has a right. It’s not a product bought and paid for. It’s a free service offered by a benevolent dictator, if you will. Very benevolent, compared to many online communities.
Consider this, too: While Bobepine may have made a huge contribution to the Pets forum, F.com has made an enormous contribution to BARK and other animal organizations on and through this site – in fact, one feels constrained to post anything that’s against their point of view, so ardent are the supporters. Does that make animal lovers a bunch of “friends” who are monopolizing the site, and their tone something that is excluding contributions from other users?
Any time two or more people agree on something on a forum, there exists the potential for a single individual with a contrary viewpoint to feel excluded. Part of being an adult is not ganging up on the one hand, and not taking it so hard when people do.
I think that you take nearly all disagreement as an insult. That’s your problem, really.
[quote=“bobepine”]I like the site, and while it may not be obvious, my critical feedback is just an honest account of what I see as being the reason why the site has very few women posting actively, and I go right to the root of the problem by pointing the finger at administration. At least, that’s where I really think the problem lies.
You may not agree, and that’s OK. But please try to be respectful in doing so. While some of you may not like what I have to say, I have not been rude to anyone and that’s the bottom line. I can’t say the same for some of the replies I had the pleasure to read.[/quote]
And if I may “respectfully disagree”, I think that your tone is often a passive aggressive one and that even while doing so politely, you often stick the knife in and give it an extra twist.
You’re not the one to point the finger.
And what’s wrong with saying that? I was completely serious. If I hated it here as much as bobepine seems to, and if after several years of stating his opinion in this regard, right back to the days of Hatch and Leo, that’s PRECISELY what I would do, if I had such a clear vision of what I wanted as bobepine seems to have.
Plus, I wasn’t TELLING him to do that. I was suggesting that it might be an alternative to bashing his head against the wall.[/quote]
There’s nothing wrong with saying that. But you say it in every other post.
And what’s wrong with saying that? I was completely serious. If I hated it here as much as bobepine seems to, and if after several years of stating his opinion in this regard, right back to the days of Hatch and Leo, that’s PRECISELY what I would do, if I had such a clear vision of what I wanted as bobepine seems to have.
Plus, I wasn’t TELLING him to do that. I was suggesting that it might be an alternative to bashing his head against the wall.[/quote]
There’s nothing wrong with saying that. But you say it in every other post.[/quote]
Yes doctor, I have the phrase permanently on my clipboard for quick copy/paste. 
I mean, it’s the whole circle-the-wagons mentality in this place. You guys are big enough to take a few criticisms whether deserved or not. Just a little professionalism would go a long way. For the first thing Gus should never have taken someone’s post and started this thread with his own title. Then, when it got out of hand, someone should have stopped it. Locked it or something. Maybe you wouldn’t have lost at least one poster.
It may be stupid advice from me, but just ignore it. Don’t attack.
Circle the wagons You have GOT to be kidding! Do you really belive for a second that my ideal Flob would be even remotely similar to this one? Get real! As for criticism, no-one’s criticising me – its not my site. And this is an Internet bulletin board. What has “professionalism” to do with it? It’s just a bit of fun with some info on shops and restaurants, etc., to while away boring deskbound work hours, nothing more than that.
Why do they call it “flob”?
That’s all I’m saying.
I’m not attacking you Doc. I’m disagreeing with your opinion and stating my own views, that’s all.
But what good does it do? We could go for thirty more pages if you want.
I mean sometimes I get the impression that they want to make this site a going concern with advertising and all that stuff and then sometimes I get the impression that they just want to let it be just what it always has been, which is good either way.
If you have to ask, you can’t afford it. But of course the reason is because it’s flobby. Plus, sourfoam was taken.
But what good does it do? We could go for thirty more pages if you want.
I mean sometimes I get the impression that they want to make this site a going concern with advertising and all that stuff and then sometimes I get the impression that they just want to let it be just what it always has been, which is good either way.[/quote]
If it’s good either way, then remind me again what you’re going on about?
And if doesn’t do any good, why drag it out this long to begin with?
At this point, I’m not even sure you yourself know what “it” is, anyway.
You claim it’s “good old boys” discouraging others from posting. I say it’s “good old animal rights boys” discouraging others from posting as well – and probably dozens of other “good old” groups in isolated spots on the boards. Heck, we probably don’t get many longterm grammar-translation advocates in Learning Chinese, for that matter. Maybe someone could explain why it’s okay for the animal folks to be that way when it’s not even their site, while Maoman can’t (theoretically, because I don’t see him being very unwelcoming to anyone who behaves remotely reasonably on a consistent basis) speak his mind on his own site?
[quote=“sandman”]What has “professionalism” to do with it?[/quote]If you have to ask, you can’t afford it.
“Professionalism is the standing practice, or methods of a professional, as distinguished from an amateur.” And the word professional is often synonymous to other words such as able, adept, competent, efficient, experienced, expert, proficient, qualified, skillful, trained and well-qualified.
I don’t think it’s a bad idea to have moderators and administrators that are adept, competent, efficient, experienced, proficient, qualified, skillful, trained and/or well-qualified. And thankfully, some of the flob’s mods and admins are.
What does flobby mean? It’s not in the dictionary. I can’t afford it, but if someone could spot me that would be great. 
[quote]I say it’s “good old animal rights boys” discouraging others from posting as well…[/quote]I am surprised that you think that, and very interested to hear more about this. Thank you for the feedback. Does anyone else feel that way? Not that I’m an animal lover by any stretch of the imagination, but I’d be happy to discuss this anytime. 
It would be helpful if you could give us a link or two of threads where you feel this is the case.
[quote]Maybe someone could explain why it’s okay for the animal folks to be that way when it’s not even their site, while Maoman can’t (theoretically, because I don’t see him being very unwelcoming to anyone who behaves remotely reasonably on a consistent basis) speak his mind on his own site?[/quote]Yes, he can speak his mind for sure. But there is more to it than that, IMO.
What you are basically saying is that the animal lovers do discourage people from posting and that therefore Maoman should be able to do the same if when he wishes to speak his mind. But that would be shooting himself in the foot, wouldn’t it? It is his site after all, and I can’t see why he would choose to speak his mind at the risk of discouraging people to post. Not very professional, and even worse if he will not treat people with respect, call posters jerks, etc, when it’s against the very rules he enforces.
OTOH, this site is not owned by animal lovers and they do not enforce the rules. They have to post within the rules and TomHill will make sure that they do just that, without exceptions… Besides, animal lovers are certainly not the reason why so few women post on Forumosa. It’s hardly lacking professionalism for a group of animal lovers to stand up for what they believe in the pets forum. In fact, if you look at it in terms of community building, educating people about the importance of spaying and neutering your pet, about the fact that adopting a pet should be for life, about the fact that throwing stones at dogs is cruel, about the fact that buying pets in pet shops only contributes to a shady trade, etc, etc, etc, is hardly a faux pas. In fact it’s a good thing, IMO.
But of course, that’s only if Forumosa hopes to become more than just a bulletin board and somehow reach out to have an actual impact in the real lives of people and animals in Taiwan. And for that to happen, the site will need to grow and I doubt that this responsibility is in the hands of animal lovers. I think that Forumosa can, and does reach out into the lives of people on this small island, and its potential is huge.
Some people think that this is just the internet and bound to be nothing more that that. Having found the inspiration to start an animal welfare organization as a result of reading posts from Dragonbones, 914 and Stray Dog, my vision is very different. Nothing like this:
From a touching story about Gustav being found when he was hit by a garbage truck, to heartfelt communal efforts to help Make and his family, to animal rescues left right and center by many forumosans (just to name a few), I for one get a glimpse of what this place can become if more people felt encouraged to post was admin to run the show more professionally.
Moreover, this island can be a tough place for many people to adapt to, and times get rough for many people sometimes. It would be nice to have a place to come to, as has been the case in many occasions for me, just to interact with other people who are in the same boat. I have shed a tear on this site reading some replies, and I have laughed until my belly hurt. Perhaps it would be nice if less people felt discouraged to join to make us laugh from time to time.
Cheers!
Chris
Sez you.