So this ‘debate’ is basically ‘Which is less shite - Asia or Europe?’ Having lived in a few cities in both, I’d say that they all have pros and cons, and it depends what you value. Taipei is a spectacularly shite place on loads of levels, but it also has some absolutely wonderful things too.
Erm, obviously.
[quote=“Buttercup”]So this ‘debate’ is basically 'Which is less shite - Asia or Europe?
[/quote]
America Fuck Yeah
Hang on your comparisons are all skewed, didn’t NZ lose its developed country status a few years ago?
I mean would you choose Taipei or Wellington when thinking of a developed countries capital? If Wellington doesn’t count then there is no way that Taipei does.
For me I think a lot of it is about personal responsibility. In NZ people take Mental Health days whenever they feel like it and are generally a bunch of slackers, in Taiwan no-one takes responsibility for anything. I should obviously back this up with some other evidence so lets look at some other developing countries like China, Africa (big country) and Mexico - I think its fair to say they are all also developing nicely but individuals don’t take much responsibility and the emphasis is on the word DEVELOPING.
Anyway enough of this I really just wanted to call BCup on her assertion that the UK is safe - bollocks. I left the UK because I was fed up with getting my car broken into (even a rental), mugged and avoiding fights at closing time.
I didn’t live in abject poverty, had a good job and those that know me will confirm I am a big lad. The UK is full of violent uneducated scum who think nothing of breaking the law because the police are toothless and the punishments pathetic. In the old days we had wars to weed out these elements they made good cannon fodder but alas these days we are short of decent sized conflicts.
Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea and China all have very low incidents of day to day crime affecting individual citizens because they have organised crime, who provide the teeth that the law often lacks. London had this in the 60s and it was a far far safer place IMHO.
[quote=“Edgar Allen”]Anyway enough of this I really just wanted to call BCup on her assertion that the UK is safe - bollocks. I left the UK because I was fed up with getting my car broken into (even a rental), mugged and avoiding fights at closing time.
I didn’t live in abject poverty, had a good job and those that know me will confirm I am a big lad. The UK is full of violent uneducated scum who think nothing of breaking the law because the police are toothless and the punishments pathetic.[/quote]
Wow, that sounds so familiar it’s not even funny…
Well, maybe it’s just that London isn’t safe, huh? 
I did witness some seemingly random violence in London, and I had friends or acquaintances who were the victim of random violence in London and elsewhere in the U.K. To a fair extent, in other large cities in the world, I knew (or could find out) the areas to avoid, yet I always had this feeling that trouble would or could come to find me in London. School children there seemed to be much more menacing than in other places and they could be extrmely problematic on public transport. Actually, in Taiwan, I don’t feel the slightest bit of anxiety when I see a group of teenagers, which I couldn’t say for living in London. I certainly feel a lot safer here.
Reminds me of a day on my way home from the supermarket with a bunch of tweens on the top floor of a double decker wrecking havoc and the bus driver getting pissed off, stopping the bus and telling them to get off the bus. Big huge argument with the driver, threatening him and in the end starting to kicking the doors before he could get them open. Or the time two kids were “tagging” the windows at the rear of the bus with their keys and the driver stopped the bus and told them to get off or he’d call the police and they started to to shout and tell him to drive on and in the end they threatened the driver before finally getting off.
Nice friendly people…
Oh how I do not miss London…
[quote=“Edgar Allen”]Hang on your comparisons are all skewed, didn’t NZ lose its developed country status a few years ago?
I mean would you choose Taipei or Wellington when thinking of a developed countries capital? If Wellington doesn’t count then there is no way that Taipei does.
For me I think a lot of it is about personal responsibility. In NZ people take Mental Health days whenever they feel like it and are generally a bunch of slackers, in Taiwan no-one takes responsibility for anything. I should obviously back this up with some other evidence so lets look at some other developing countries like China, Africa (big country) and Mexico - I think its fair to say they are all also developing nicely but individuals don’t take much responsibility and the emphasis is on the word DEVELOPING.
Anyway enough of this I really just wanted to call BCup on her assertion that the UK is safe - bollocks. I left the UK because I was fed up with getting my car broken into (even a rental), mugged and avoiding fights at closing time.
I didn’t live in abject poverty, had a good job and those that know me will confirm I am a big lad. The UK is full of violent uneducated scum who think nothing of breaking the law because the police are toothless and the punishments pathetic. In the old days we had wars to weed out these elements they made good cannon fodder but alas these days we are short of decent sized conflicts.
Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea and China all have very low incidents of day to day crime affecting individual citizens because they have organised crime, who provide the teeth that the law often lacks. London had this in the 60s and it was a far far safer place IMHO.[/quote]
Sorry you’ve had such shitty experiences. It’s probably a lot nicer and easier if you’re female. Good news, the car crime thing is apparently not a big deal any more due to better security features. I don’t know; I wouldn’t ever buy a car.
Chav kids on buses. Never seen it, but I’m sure it exists in big cities where you have those huge long routes that go through peasant settlements.
There is still organised crime; it’s just, erm, ‘organised’; its remit is to make money, not kneecap gobby kids. There are ways, still - you just have to know who to talk to. My sister got burgled three times a few years ago; then we found someone to have a word. The majority of people don’t get protection from their friendly Ronnie Kray time - people like that see people like you as fair game, not someone who gets free protection. I remember the police being completely disinterested whenever people I knew were burgled, even when it was clearly an inside job by ‘security guards’. These things also rely on guanxi in Taiwan, especially if you’re a foreigner.
Burglary is a lot less prevalent than during the Thatcher years because the resale value of cheap Chinese made electronics provides no margin. Why steal a £15 DVD player?
Anyway; of course the south of England’s a shithole. The north, Scotland and Wales are far nicer. The population is not as dense, so you aren’t cheek by jowl with the urban poor, tourists, and illegal immigrants all day.
I suppose my conclusion is; my experience has been that the UK is far less dangerous than I assumed it was when I lived abroad. Of course, it’s not Xanadu, but it’s far nicer than I assumed it would be. Fortunately, we’re all in a position to be able to choose where we live.
blue, you’re getting dangerously close to tommy territory.
I think Butter is the nationalistic sort. You can tell can’t you?
Hardly. I’m very interested in how expats relate to things, as confirmation bias and rejection of home culture is widespread.
I have lived in the UK before too…experienced my fair share of both subtle and explicit racism
The UK’s penal system is just too lenient and the state just takes care of everything, that is why some kids turn out like that. If I were a chav I would be thinking…why find a job when I can live off benefits? yeah so I rob this guy, I get what, 2 years, 1 year out on tag. HM prisons are so comfy, you’ve got a couch, tv, lots of reading materials, psp, swimming pools, free food, free medical care, free degrees, free catalogue shopping from avons, lots of free tea, free gym, free classes, hanging out with the boys, chilling on taxpayer’s money.
I’ve experienced ‘racism’ all over Asia, as a white person. To generalise, the population of any country has a significant proportion of people who simply don’t want immigrants, legal or illegal, tourists, students, expats, anyone. And in a country with a high tax burden, where all are legally entitled to free schooling and healthcare, people resent the financial burden, whether you see this as correct or incorrect. There’s plenty of resentment against foreigners in Taiwan, when the majority of ‘westerners’ are college educated and pay more tax than locals, and have very few rights. Imagine how that would play out in Taiwan, when you see those ‘benefit scroungers’ you see in England, and they aren’t even British, don’t speak and English, etc, etc. A lot of racism comes from the perception that immigrants in Britain have a lot of rights, but few responsibilities.
And even if foreigners DO pay their way: so what? As a Canadian friend explained to me about how he understood when Taiwanese people were so racist sometimes; just because you put gas in the engine from time to time, doesn’t mean you chipped in to buy the car.
Like it or not - there are laws to protect you from racism. We also give away enormous amounts of money in foreign aid, educational charities and scholarships, etc. However; you can’t move to a tiny island en masse and expect the entire population to like and accept it, however middle class people (whose children don’t go to schools where English is a minority language, or are not denied social housing because it’s given to asylum seekers from whatever conflict du jour) may decry this, and sneer at the people who live with having to share everything with people whose parents didn’t pay for it.
Having returned to my country, after having lived all over the world, I have a wider view. But I’m lucky; I’m relatively wealthy and educated. You can piss on the place where you live, or you can accet its faults and try to make it better.
Screw the Human Rights Act. They should have Singapore’s prison system there and in the US. It is freaking inhumane. We will see if these tough guys are really that tough as they make themselves out to be. They will be crying their asses off I guarantee you that.
So … Asia is better with no human rights? Was this what you were saying in your other thread.
Though I think the analogy is slightly flawed, or represents a middle class misrepresentation of itself because of course, few people in any country actually do more than “put gas in the engine from time to time”. A lot of people (including much of the middle class, and including myself) in Canada, Taiwan, or anywhere else are essentially just paying for themselves only at a maintenance/usage level. It’s the upper class and/or businesses that are paying in the money to advance things. There actually aren’t that many people who really chip in to buy the car, so to speak, despite what they may think. In that respect, I’m no different here than in Australia or any other country I’ve ever lived and neither is a Taiwanese middle class person (living here, Australia or anywhere else). They pay what, 10% tax here, plus various hidden taxes? So someone on 50,000NT/month probably actually is using (or has used previously) 5,000NT’s worth of things here every month, with probably barely loose change left to contribute to the betterment of the country.
My grandparents helped build the bloody car shop!
And similarly, in Taiwan, I can comlain about how shite the government is, but then my parents and grandparents didn’t risk death or persecution to set up a multi-party democracy.
The argument that the ‘rich’ put in all the money is flawed. X amount hold Y amount of the wealth, but the next chunk of wealth is from people like me.
Edit I don’t have any real position here. I just find comments like ‘X is racist’ and ‘Y is full of criminals’ to be fatuous and simplistic.
Have you ever been out walking around in London before anywhere around night time?
They don’t steal your 15 pounds DVD player. They steal your jewellery and cash and whatever shit you’ve got
Yes I would agree.
Yeah right the immigrants are the only ones claiming benefits… Here’s a newsflash…Immigrants CANNOT claim benefits unless they have ILR (5 years in UK on work visa). They can use the NHS that is about it. The ones claiming benefits are the citizens and ILR holders.
I would say 95% of immigrants in the UK are hard working, VERY HIGHLY EDUCATED (you need a minimum of a master degree just to get a Tier 1 work visa these days. I know because my best friend in London is bitching about how hard it is to get a British passport which is his goal. He is filthy rich (Indonesian Chinese), BA from KCL, MSC from City Uni, been in the UK ten years and still is not able to claim benefits or get ILR. It is not as easy as landing in the UK and ahoy! lets get those benefits ! No it doesn’t work that way… The UK is probably one of the hardest country to get a work visa in these days.
And by the way, I don;t think the Taiwanese resent foreigners. When I was in Taiwan, nobody knew I was a foreigner (I speak chinese & am chinese). Only if I hanged out with them for a longer period of time, like perhaps going out for a, then they would realise I wasn’t from Taiwan. But I think many Taiwanese don’t resent foreigners , neither are they racist like what you seem to be implying.
[quote=“Buttercup”]
Chav kids on buses. Never seen it … [/quote]
Unless I am mistaken Buttercup, I do recall you complaining in another thread about the “gyppos” on the local trains/ buses ? I for one wouldn’t accuse you of being “nationalistic” as some of your comments about fellow Brits are rather disparaging. Peasant- take me to your lord ! We don’t have a lord, this is an anarcho-syndicalist commune!
The UK is not perfect that’s for sure, some gangs of kids do want they want with impunity in London and other urban centres. But my overwhelming impression on returning from TW to the UK is a sense of order, and fairness.
Read the bolded part. No-one I know has been burgled since I’ve been here. I’m sure it happens. It’s just not as much of a problem as it used to be. We all have lockable UPVC windows and doors. 
[quote=“Blue”]
Yeah right the immigrants are the only ones claiming benefits… Here’s a newsflash…Immigrants CANNOT claim benefits unless they have ILR (5 years in UK on work visa). They can use the NHS that is about it. The ones claiming benefits are the citizens and ILR holders.[/quote]
Nonsense. What do you think happens to destitute immigrants? They don’t get benefits related to national insurance, but they get housed if they have kids, and hardship payments, as well as the right to use schools, roads, garbage collection and hospitals for free.
You would be wrong. The majority are asylum seekers, either real (welcome; how many does your country host?) or bogus, students at bogus or real schools, and european labourers.
No-one cares. How hard is it for a Brit to get a passport from an Asian country? People assume they are welcome because they are rich and went to university. You can’t just invite yourself to someone’s house then whine that they won’t give you a key. What basis does he have to cherry-pick his nationality?
That’s because we’re ‘full’. It’s going to get unbelievably harder, with the next government. Over the past ten years, the government has placed very few restrictions on immigration, leading to the public perception of a ‘problem’. The majority of the voting British people want that.
You can also get benefits if you are an asylum seeker. My cousin is a social worker and he has a house full of paperless adult asylum seekers who claim to be a) children and b) from Somalia, Afghanistan, etc. There was even, until the French dispersed it, a shanty town in Calais, full of people trying to get over here. People travel across the whole EU, in hiding (they have to claim asylum in the first EU state they land in), to get here.
As usual, you’re missing the point by a country mile, which is; expats love to slag off their own country, or somewhere they used to live because it makes them feel good about your current choices. Every country has significant and serious problems. They are not all the same problems, although many are universal. Or choice of residence may reflect those choices.
[quote=“pgdaddy”][quote=“Buttercup”]
Chav kids on buses. Never seen it … [/quote]
Unless I am mistaken Buttercup, I do recall you complaining in another thread about the “gyppos” on the local trains/ buses ? I for one wouldn’t accuse you of being “nationalistic” as some of your comments about fellow Brits are rather disparaging. Peasant- take me to your lord ! We don’t have a lord, this is an anarcho-syndicalist commune!
The UK is not perfect that’s for sure, some gangs of kids do want they want with impunity in London and other urban centres. But my overwhelming impression on returning from TW to the UK is a sense of order, and fairness.[/quote]
Gyppos, not chav kids! Gyppos are harmless, though their peasant musk and voluble mating calls are offensive to one’s senses …
Buttercup, imho you’re a rude uneducated peasant yourself.
You have no idea what you’re talking about and it seems like anyone that’s not born of British blood is either this that or the other.
FYI “european labourers” have become the backbone of the UK as your kind is to f-ing lazy or unwilling to do manual labour, mostly because it’s easier and pays better to live off social welfare.
The UK is a shit hole compared to Taiwan, people are a LOT more racist, even to people that don’t even look different from themselves to a great degree (except possibly being a bit less inbreed).
I knew you were opinionated, but this is a piss take just because you think you live in a fantastic place which truth be told is possibly one of the most unwelcoming places I’ve ever been to.
The only reason I stayed for as long as I did was in part due to my ex until things unfolded the way they did and in part due to the jobs I had.
I got called a free loading foreigner by locals that most likely lived off social welfare that my tax money went towards.
I got conned by so many people, mostly because I was young and didn’t know better, but I learnt fast, although not fast enough.
Had I known then what I know now, I would never ever set foot in the British Isles.
You might want to try broadening your views a little bit, as despite you having lived here, it doesn’t seem to have changed you the least bit and you’re just as “British” as most of the lot over there in the worst sense possible.
Immigrants who have fallen destitute go home or are deported. They don’t get to claim benefits. Students don’t get to claim benefits either. Not sure about EU nationals though.
Asylum seekers are not really economic imigrants are they. Economic immigrats have skills, money and are out to make a better life for themselves.
Refugees or asylum seekers have go to the border agency and appear before a UK court. The courts have to approve their asylum status before they can stay in the UK. Basically, the UK is saying “Hi welcome to the UK. We know you are a refugee and don’t have money, but welcome you to claim benefits and live off the state. After a few years, we hope to make you British. Have a nice stay”
The UK is the one accepting these refugees in the first place so don’t complain when they live off the state, of course most of them do that as they are unable to subsist by sthemselves.
It is just like the house of commons complaining about the national debt in the UK while they continue spending millions of dollars buying mosquito nets for africa, along with a few million in food aid, along with a few billion in iraq and afghanistan lol.
It is just ironic
[/quote]
My point is it is not easy for economic immigrants to get ILR and claim benefits. As for what basis does he have to cherry pick his nationality? Well, education, skills and $$. You have those you can cherry pick your nationality these days after paying your dues. He has paid his dues and he should be applying for ILR soon under the basis of 10 years legal stay in the UK.
Labour is making it hard for qualified, educated, skilled, english speaking migrants to get into the UK. But they are making it easy for a destitute, unskilled, non english speaking somalians to walk through the door and hand them all the taxpayer’s money to live a comfy life. Or less qualified non english speaking EU nationals to just walk in with their EU passports.
But the UK has chosen that path so live with it. Dont complain about these refugees living off taxpayer’s money. You were the ones who volunteered to play host in the first place.
Like I said I have experienced subtle and explicit racism in the UK. Subtle racism is probably there quite often. But I have come to terms with it and t hasn’t spoilt my experience, overall, I did enjoy my stay in the UK. I would say there is less racism in Taiwan though. Just the way I feel.
Well, everything worked out fine, then, didn’t it? 
But seriously - learn to read. You’re just reacting to imagined slights and assuming that one attitude envelopes a host of others. I understand that.
It’s great where I live. Taiwan was great too. Loved it. It really does make me chuckle when expats slag places off, as if it’s the problem of the country they live in.
The telling thing is - you all hate the place, but you still found plenty of reason to invite yourselves here. Despite your disliking it.
And I’ll let you know what I think of your country when … Oh wait! I’ll never have any reason to or interest in going there!
[quote=“Buttercup”]Well, everything worked out fine, then, didn’t it? But seriously - learn to read. You’re just reacting to imagined slights. i understand that.
It’s great where I live. Taiwan was great too. Loved it. It really does make me chuckle when expats slag places off, as if it’s the problem of the country they live in.
The telling thing is - you all hate the place, but you still found plenty of reason to invite yourselves here. Despite your disliking it. [/quote]
Lol since when have you ever heard me say I hate the UK? I was just replying to your comments on crime and immigration in the UK. Don’t be so defensive.
Buttercup: In Australia at least, there’s massive middle class welfare. I talked at length with a friend of a friend who worked for the Australian Taxation Office about this once. There are those in the upper class who are paying their way, but there are enough people getting all sorts of handouts that the tax they pay in barely covers it.
Likewise, if we took a married couple with a combined income in Taiwan of 80,000NT/month, which would probably be considered fairly middle class, they’d only be paying about 8,000NT/month into the system. A school teacher’s salary here basically requires each kid’s parents to be paying about 1,500NT-2,000NT/month alone. At 1.3 children on average, that’s 1,950NT-2,600NT per child, not including other school costs (such as the non-teaching staff, materials and maintenance). It could very easily run to over 3,000NT/month/child. The healthcare system is heavily subsidised too and I’m sure families could easily be getting another 1,000NT/month out of that. So, between health and education, families here are already using up 50% of what they pay in tax. Surely it’s not that hard to imagine them getting another 4,000NT’s worth of government services per month, hence my assertion that a lot of people in this country, even in the middle class, are not in fact actually chipping in to buy the car, so to speak.
blue: Buttercup is right about the state of immigration in the U.K. I worked in education and briefly in construction (while I was waiting for my papers to be sorted out by an education agency). I taught tons and tons of kids in England who I could quite easily say were there under dubiously legal circumstances. I taught entire classes where there was not one European kid, let alone one English kid. Entire schools in fact. In construction, the labouring is all done by eastern Europeans. I also knew Polish guys who did that. I had an English housemate who couldn’t get work in construction, despite years of experience, because he was priced out by foreign labourers. Most, if not all, of the nannies in England are Polish or other eastern European girls. How many of any of those were legal is anyone’s guess. How many of the Somali or Middle Eastern guys who worked in internet cafes was anyone’s guess. Even how many of the Aussies, Kiwis and Saffas in London were legal was anyone’s guess as I knew some of those too who were working there illegally. I lived in places, especially the last, where being “English” put you in a very small minority. Can I imagine the whole student visa thing being a massive, massive back door in England? In a heartbeat. Say you’re going to study English for three months and once you’re in, you’re gone mate and no one knows who you are or where you are.
Furthermore, as Buttercup has pointed out, why should the U.K. just accept all-comers (no matter what their credentials are) without making it extremely tough to get in? It’s already struggling to keep up, and surely the British people have a right to choose the direction of their country instead of turning it into one giant shanty town or else having to fork out ever-increasing amounts of money to ensure that new arrivals don’t turn it into one (though there’s always the issue of space). Maybe, if for no other reason, they want a sense of space and to preserve something of their countryside and historic urban areas, not to mention their cultural values. If lots of people are rorting the system (and really if you don’t think there are tons and tons of people rorting the system, then you’re completely naive), who is paying for the system?
TheLostSwede: I really disliked living in London (especially working in education) also and agree with many of your sentiments, but I can also see how people like my English housemate simply couldn’t get work. Yes, admittedly, the Polish and Russian guys worked like dogs, but the point is still that regardless, they were probably getting paid below minimum wage, so to compete with them, English labourers are forced to live off below legal wages that are probably no better (and maybe even worse) than benefits. That is screwed up. I’m not entirely sure why the U.K. is such a target of preference, but can you imagine it happening anywhere else and the locals not getting sick of it? Imagine Taiwanese, Swedes or Australians being massively pushed out of gainful employment and where that would lead. I’m actually surprised there hasn’t been a much worse backlash in the U.K. Far be it for me to defend the modern U.K., which I think (at least in London) is a form of living hell, but look at what they’re up against.
Immigration is a source of strength and diversity. My own family are Jewish emigrees who moved to the UK in the early 1900’s. One of the things that made the USA great (note that I said “made”) was it is a country of immigrants.
In any time of economic hardship there always will be those that blame immigration for the ills of the country. As I recall though, the world economic crisis was started by white bankers (a semi-spoonerism, perhaps) on Wall Street.
Sure, the UK government policy on immigration over the last generation has not been perfect, and there should have been more emphasis on integration and the speaking of English.
Buttercup makes little attempt to veil her prejudice, but I would say that she is certainly not typical of the average Brit. In general, we are very welcoming to foreigners on these shores.
As for the Taiwanese being less racist than the Brits, well I don’t think you need to dig very deep to realise that this is not true.