You may well consider the UK a terrible place to live, I’d disagree, but the numbers of immigrants suggests that there are some incentives to living here. I think the British in general are actually highly tolerant, but clearly the recession is causing many to crack and thus we are seeing the rise of the BNP. New Labour were the cause of all this, because they were hand-in-hand with big business and deliberately set-out to create a cheap labour pool during the boom years. They’re now having to deal with results of the most relaxed and openly flouted immigration rules on the planet that they allowed up to 2 years ago.
Compare getting into, say, Taiwan or the US with getting into the UK.
Uhm, I started at the bottom and worked my way up, that’s normally how it works in life, no?
I came to the UK knowing very little about what to expect and I ended up in SE London which might not be the most pleasant part of the country.
I started out working in a computer shop for far less than minimum wages, got another job at an internet help desk (working shifts) after a year or so and then was lucky enough to get a job through an ad in a computer magazine (after having attended tons of interviews that lead no-where) working in the labs testing hardware for the publication. I worked my way up and became a writer for the magazine, but then the editor changed and the new guy didn’t like me, so I was forced out of my job due to some illegalities on the company’s side. I then got a job with a Taiwanese motherboard manufacturer which I left after about six months as my old editor started a new publication (online this time) but his business partner screwed me over there, so again I left and got myself a job with another publication which I was quite happy working for, but then my relationship went to shits and I decided it was time to move elsewhere.
Now none of this has anything to do with my feelings for the UK. It’s all the other shit that went down that put me off the UK big time. The biggest problem is the attitude of the great unwashed masses, if it’s not theirs, then who gives a shit. I’m not saying Sweden is paradise on earth, we’ve got plenty of people with the same sucky attitude. We also have a huge influx of the same kind of people that come to the UK, as Sweden is seen as another place where the government takes care of you. Actually, at least 1/9th of the Swedish population is of “foreign” origin. So please, dream up some other crap Buttecup, as you’re not the only nation in the world that accepts and takes care of refugees, legit or not. We also have enough immigrant workers and it’s a big issue back home at the moment with the Sweden Democrats (our take on the BNP) are getting more and more popular in the running up to the next election and that scares the shit out of me.
Now I have a fair few friends in the UK and I miss them and they’re good and decent people. I’m not saying all Brits are the same, but sadly the largest, most visible group of people are not the kind of people I want to be around. And I see you sharing a lot of similar traits as that I see from them Miss Buttercup and it’s something I don’t like. I suggest you pack your suitcase again and go travelling around Europe and actually experience the places that some of these people you talk so quaintly about come from. I went to Poland when it was still a communist country and it wasn’t a very pleasant place, but at least the people were much nicer than the average Brit. The fact that you state “And I’ll let you know what I think of your country when … Oh wait! I’ll never have any reason to or interest in going there!” shows how ignorant you really are.
I’m sorry if you had bad experiences with British people, Swede. Maybe because I’m British and white I don’t experience them. I don’t believe people experience more racial intolerance here than in other European countries.
The point is there are way more immigrants as a percentage of the native population in the UK than any other European country, so the British have to deal with problems other nations don’t. In the first 8 years of the New Labour govt. over 80% of all new jobs created went to non-British citizens. Now, you can argue that that’s because the British are somehow genetically lazy and prefer government hand-outs over work. I would argue that it’s much more likely to boil down to economics and employers taking on the cheapest employees available. Whatever, the problem is native British people can’t find work now and the government can’t afford benefits anymore.
In these circumstances I think the British people are still showing great restraint and tolerance.
On a side not, I am however grateful for the fact that my English improved by vast amounts during my time living there, but then again, I didn’t really have many Swedish friends there, so English was the only language I spoke and it seems like I still do…
I don’t hate everything about the UK, but I think many of those that are British are blind to some of what is going on as they’re so used to it that they ignore it. I found a lot of my time there frustrating, mostly because I was treated as a second class citizen. So ok, I was never an actual citizen, but I went to work, I paid my taxes, I was even allowed to vote in the local elections thanks to coming from another EU country.
I worked with people from all over the world in the UK and no, most of them weren’t treated better or worse than me, but it’s very clear that most British seem to think that they’re superior to people from other places in the world. I meet a lot of people that said that they have no reason to travel anywhere outside of the UK as what could there possibly be that could be worth seeing outside of their great nation. I don’t mind patriotism, but that’s just ignorance.
tomthorne actually understands because he’s living in the UK …
It’s also strong and diverse due to the Picts, Celts, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Icelanders, Gauls and Normans who established the place.
[quote=“pgdaddy”]In any time of economic hardship there always will be those that blame immigration for the ills of the country. As I recall though, the world economic crisis was started by white bankers (a semi-spoonerism, perhaps) on Wall Street.
Sure, the UK government policy on immigration over the last generation has not been perfect, and there should have been more emphasis on integration and the speaking of English.[/quote]
It’s not a case of racism, or prejudice; it’s a case of innappropriate immigration which has left the working poor and middle class with a huge tax burden, high unemployment and competition for unskilled jobs by illegal workers (whiich doesn’t only impact on brits; google the Morecombe cockle pickers) and overstretched public services.
The poor economy has actually alleviated many of the issues because many illegal workers (I include workers from EU states who work in untaxed, sub-minimum wage jobs) have decided there’s no longer enough money to be made.
[quote=“pgdaddy”]Buttercup makes little attempt to veil her prejudice, but I would say that she is certainly not typical of the average Brit. In general, we are very welcoming to foreigners on these shores.
[/quote]
I am not prejudiced. My family is multi-ethnic, and the latest arrival is Mohammed Cup, from Indonesia. I’ve lived all over the world and enjoyed forming friendships with people all over the world.
I’m not even anti-immigration. But I know for sure that 95% of countries wouldn’t tolerate noughties Labour openness. Can you imagine a Taiwan where there were 2 Taiwanese in a class and the rest were Indonesian, Thai, Canadian, British, Somalian, Jordanian, Polish, Iranian, Spanish, Bulgarian? It’s nothing to do with prejudice against these people, simply a question of ‘Why do I pay a quarter of my income in taxes when I have to teach my child to read, myself?’
And?
Kind of like Taiwan? Huge and silly generalisation.
So … you’re confirming what I am saying by pointing out that your country is similar?
You’re projecting, and ascribing traits to me because … it fits your patterns. All dissent and mature discussion is ‘anti-good’. ‘Immigration is a problem’ means ‘Kill all inferior foreigners and dash their little ones’ heads on the rocks’. Hyperbolic tripe.
I’ve been all over Europe, and I also work with people from all over Europe because part of my job is to develop high school tests from other countries. I share my house and office and take part in sports with people from ‘eastern Europe’.
‘Ignorant’. You can say what every nonsense because you fucked about in London, for some reason, when you were a kid. You’re an expert. Yet I, a 35 year old Brit, am completely ignorant about the realities of where I live.
You were. Scroll back for my analogy about the car. And you had more ‘rights’ than I had in Thailand, France, China or Taiwan.
[quote="Lost Swede"I worked with people from all over the world in the UK and no, most of them weren’t treated better or worse than me, but it’s very clear that most British seem to think that they’re superior to people from other places in the world.[/quote]
You think everyone who lives in Britain should be given absolutely equal rights to goods and services, not dependent on ability to pay?
On that last note Miss Buttercup, are you insinuating that I’m a communist?
And no, I wasn’t talking about everyone being given the same, but you lot aren’t superior just because you’re stuck on an island off the coast of France and like to call the rest of Europe for “the continent”.
You really have a sucky attitude woman and obviously no-one else can speak their mind but you.
On that last note Miss Buttercup, are you insinuating that I’m a communist?
Eh? You seem to be saying that I should pay to maintain my country’s creaking infrastructure to provide a pleasant English learning environment for folks such as yourself.
And no, I wasn’t talking about everyone being given the same, but you lot aren’t superior just because you’re stuck on an island off the coast of France and like to call the rest of Europe for “the continent”.
I’ve never said that, or used the word ‘continent’. but yes, I think my rights in Britain should be superior to tourists, because I have never enjoyed equal rights and facilities as the locals in any country i’ve lived and paid tax in, and because my ancestors made and paid for the welfare state and other privileges that yours paid for (or didn’t, depending where you come from) in your country.
You really have a sucky attitude woman and obviously no-one else can speak their mind but you.
No-one’s censoring your right to an opinion, or your right to express it, but if you express it publicly, others also have the right to disagree. I’ve not been personally rude to you, or called you out personally, have I?
I’m sorry I forgot that this was a forum…
Apology accepted. You are entitled to express your prejudices and opinions.
For the record I lived in Bradford which I think qualifies as up north and Cardiff which I think qualifies as Wales (actually owned a house in Caerphilly) and most of the crime I experienced happened in good old middle class Bristol. I am well traveled and have lived in 14 cities in the UK aswell as 5 Asian countries.
Racism in Asia against white people is only really noticeable in Japan IMHO and wasn’t the issue I chose to raise anyway. In 10 years in Asia I have never been in a fight and only once felt threatened with violence (by a Brit funnily enough). I just don’t think there are parrallels to be drawn.
B’Cup I know where you live, its very safe and awfully “nice” but there is still trouble in and around the pubs at closing time and Bicester is not far away, where the squaddies are a law unto themselves.
I’ve never understood why so many people consider the British to be ‘superior’. All the Brits I know (and I know a lot) are highly self-deprecating.
As for being a ‘second class citizen’, LostSwede, when I was living in Taiwan I didn’t think for one second that I deserved to get the same as a Taiwanese person. I would have liked to have had something approaching equal work rights, but there you go. It would be a little naive to move to another country and immediately expect to get everything handed to you. I think the ‘package’ offered to immigrants in the UK is pretty good and definitely better than most other countries, Sweden exepted.
It’s great where I live. Taiwan was great too. Loved it. It really does make me chuckle when expats slag places off, as if it’s the problem of the country they live in.
The telling thing is - you all hate the place, but you still found plenty of reason to invite yourselves here. Despite your disliking it.
And I’ll let you know what I think of your country when … Oh wait! I’ll never have any reason to or interest in going there![/quote]
Please do let me know what is wrong with Singapore. In fact, do us a favour, form a lobby group and lobby the Prime Minister for change. I assure you I won’t be the least offended. If you have read through my posts you would know that I have expressed my fair share of criticism towards Singapore lol.
Now you are making it sound like I am desperately clinging on to the UK. But I will admit, on the whole (crime, weather, shitty train system and racism aside) the UK is a much better place to live in than Singapore. More freedom, human rights, MUCH better TV, no big brother is watching you kind of feeling, no need to fear that your ass will be tenderized with a wooden cane if you suddenly have the urge to spray paint your name on a letter box.
But no we don’t cling onto the UK it is too far. The preferred destination of choice for Singaporeans is Australia. 6 hours to Sydney. Cheap airfaires on Jetstar Asia or row a boat to Australia from Indonesia, your choice! Shit, I have even got extended family there. The Australians are even able to pick out the Singaporean accent quite easily these days
They should be shutting out the refugees and illegal immigrants which are the sources of their problem. Not making it harder for skilled non EU immigrants, that is all I am saying.
40% of the population here are foriegners too so I understand what is going on. A lot of idiots here are blaming everything on the immigrants. Crime, lack of jobs, lack of culture, no English skills. Shit, if these idiots actually take a look in the mirror, they would see that many of them speak shitty English, are arrogant like hell and are uneducated. In fact, most immigrants here are hardworking, honest people out to carve a better life than the ones they had in China or India.
Yes I have sseen that in London myself. Some parts of London have more dark skinned people than White skinned ones. Once again, the issue is not student visas per se, it is the illegals and the refugees and the EU gangsters.
I , and probably you as well, don’t even need a visa to enter the UK. We could enter and dissapear if we wanted to but what’s the point in being illegal?
[quote=“pgdaddy”]
As for the Taiwanese being less racist than the Brits, well I don’t think you need to dig very deep to realise that this is not true.[/quote]
Well, like I said, I am Chinese and I speak Chinese. They didn’t even know I was a foreigner unless we went out for dinner together or unless I acidentally mixed some English words into my Chinese. Even when they knew I wasn’t from TW, they were VERY hospitable and kind. But I am Chinese like I said.
Bristol - yeah. The south is scuzzier than the rest of the Yook. My theory is that it’s just so much more expensive than everywhere else, that when people drop of the job perch and get poor, they get really poor. For example, the chichi flat that me and my sis rented in the northern quarter that we could easily afford in Manchester would cost about 2/3 of my salary, in the south.
Not saying property crime doesn’t exist, EA, but it’s nowhere near at the level it was in the 80s and early 90s when there was much more unemployment and poverty, and houses and cars were easier to break in to, and goods had more resale value.
Ok, at any which point did I ask for equal rights?
The rights isn’t the issue here, it’s how the locals treat you.
In Taiwan people do look at me funny from time to time, but I do stand out like a sore thumb compared to the locals.
In the UK I don’t think that just by looking at me you would think that I’m a foreigner first thing.
Yet if you don’t speak the language perfectly the locals just presume you’re “one of them furriners” that come to the UK to live off the gov’nment.
Is it too much to ask that you’re at least treated like another human being and not like someone that might as well have the plague for all they know?
No-one would treat a Brit in Sweden the way I was treated in the UK by many of the locals.
And no, I didn’t run around in a Sweden T-shirt and a Viking helmet, I mostly kept to myself and got on with my own business.
My experience with Taiwan is so much better, yet I’m much more of a stranger here, so please explain that one to me.
[quote=“TheLostSwede”]Ok, at any which point did I ask for equal rights?
The rights isn’t the issue here, it’s how the locals treat you.
In Taiwan people do look at me funny from time to time, but I do stand out like a sore thumb compared to the locals.
In the UK I don’t think that just by looking at me you would think that I’m a foreigner first thing.
Yet if you don’t speak the language perfectly the locals just presume you’re “one of them furriners” that come to the UK to live off the gov’nment.
Is it too much to ask that you’re at least treated like another human being and not like someone that might as well have the plague for all they know?
No-one would treat a Brit in Sweden the way I was treated in the UK by many of the locals.
And no, I didn’t run around in a Sweden T-shirt and a Viking helmet, I mostly kept to myself and got on with my own business.
My experience with Taiwan is so much better, yet I’m much more of a stranger here, so please explain that one to me.[/quote]
Maybe your experience would have been better had you wore a Viking helmet. I know of a few British friends who actually thought Sweden was a better place to live than the UK.
Maybe it is something to do with the ^cough^ stiff upper lips…or the chip on the shoulder thing…that happens everywhere in the world of course
I can’t explain that one to you, LostSwede. 90% of the Brits I know are nice people, and all the immigrants I know tell me they are having a pretty good time here other than the weather.
The UK probably isn’t the country for you. Enjoy your time in Taiwan.
Yes, you do. Brits can tell which part of Britain you come from by looking at you.
Londoners and urban southerners are rarely open with strangers. If it’s as dangerous and unpleasant as you say, can you understand why? As I said; the population of southern England has exploded in the last 10-15 years. The majority will be friendly if you are in their immediate circle, but it’s a mistake to assume you are welcome, whether you contribute or not. You, personally, may have poured tens of thousands into the economy, and not taken much out, but, well, ‘the majority’ don’t care. You’re just taking up space. We may be shite, but everyone seems to get over their distaste because they have some stupid reason to come here.
I was told time and again in Taiwan that I was a ‘good’ immigrant - not from south Africa, or on drugs, or fucking locals, or dirty, or uneducated like most of them.
You seem to think of yourself as a ‘good immigrant’ who deserves respect. All though Brits will generally be courteous, they won’t give much else.
[quote=“TheLostSwede”]Is it too much to ask that you’re at least treated like another human being and not like someone that might as well have the plague for all they know?
[/quote]
You’re a stranger. No connections or guanxi. British society has a lot in common with Taiwan’s. People will not generally be openly rude (although that is changing, unfortunately), but they will freeze you out, if they don’t want to engage with you.
Culture shocky newbs! What can you do with 'em, eh?
If that is the case, why are they unable to guess which part of Britain I come from even when I spoke in my fake RP accent. Good Moooooorrrrrning Mate.
Yes, you get the job because you know someone, not because you have a good degree. Newbies…
blue: I can kind of tell where someone is from (in a very broad, regional way) in the U.K. by their accent. A British person would definitely know.
I agree that the U.K. should have had a more restrictive approach to immigration and only taken the cream off the top, but it’s not that simple. Because of its physical proximity to Europe (especially with the Channel Tunnel) and its level of integration into Europe, it’s just not that simple. This is where the U.K. is on a hiding to nothing. If it takes anyone, everyone says, “London’s a shithole, it looks like Mogadishu” [pan to some guy with a funny accent and a shaved head in a football jersey breaking something]. On the other hand, if it even hints at tightening up on that (whilst still being far more accepting and lenient than most countries in Europe even), it’s all, “They’re hanging swastikas from Westminster” [pan to some guy with a funny accent and a shaved head in a football jersey breaking something].
TheLostSwede: Dude, it’s precisely because you didn’t wear a viking helmet that you didn’t have an awesome time there! Every year, there’s this group of Swedes at the Australian Open with Swedish flags painted on their cheeks, draped in Swedish flags and wearing viking helmets. Face paint opens all sorts of doors in Australia, and I suspect it would in many parts of the U.K. too since we do come from the same stock, but the viking helmets do it. Everyone loves those guys and they always look like they’re having an awesome time, even if there’s no Swedish tennis player or he’s getting beaten. New approach needed.
Most Brits are descended from Vikings anyway. We’re all brothers under the skin. I don’t think the Taiwan question needs answering any more; in summary: -
They are lovely people
The food is great
They have a high speed train
The Banks don’t really work
Employees have no rights
Floods and Typhoons destroy about a third of all the progress every year
Its not even as developed as NZ which is itself no longer labelled a developed country
We’re all brothers under the skin. I don’t think the Taiwan question needs answering any more; in summary: -