Stand-up Punching in MMA

Recreation Sports
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Oh…and as a side note: Violence.

I know how most gyms work…and granted that none of it is a cake walk - I know that a lot of the fighting goes on between gyms or word of mouth in a controlled environment. Kimbo has ‘trained’ in situations where there was outside influence out of his fuckin control.

I’m not tryin to big myself up…and I may or may not get beaten in Taiwan’s little MMA community in the future but I will go out on a limb and say that I look forward to a time where I can fight some of you in a ring with a single target in front of me.

(Excuse my speech. I mean no disrespect. I generally type how I speak.)

42

You make two points, one of which I agree with completely. I didn’t say that Kimbo is not an amazing fighter. He certainly is. My point is only that while he is not old, but he is not really young either. If he were a mainstream MMA fighter at his age with such a record, no one would be paying any attention to him. He’s talented, but whether that talent can develop into something more than second-rate MMA venues with relatively minor MMA figures remains to be seen.

Your second point is a little strange. Didn’t we have this exact same conversation almost a year ago? Is this a seasonal thing? A mating season call? In the past there were lots of local grappling and other kinds of events. I don’t know that they were ever closed to anyone. Certainly the one I organized for Taiwan BJJ last year was open to anyone who paid the registration fee and showed up to compete. I don’t know what they’ll be doing this year, though.

No offense taken. I feel the same way.

43

Great stuff from Kimbo.

That’s what I call fighting and a real fighting man.

Decent stuff.

44

Monster.

If you like fighting so much then fight. You are only 30 years old and have been working out and keeping fit most of your life. So fight.
Some Chinese kids want me to coach them in MMA and boxing, won’t be for a few months though. If you want to come along them you are welcome. Work out and apply for cage fighting in the USA. Do it man put it on the line and start MMA fighting. I am 40 now and a family man so not interested. Have done submission wrestling and boxing when in my twenties and early thirties. You are welcome to spar with me though. :wink:

I think if you got involved with it then you could go far.

Just my advice.

oh yeah and when i say “kids” i mean they are in their early twenties (showing my age)

45

Seasonal Mating Call!!! That tickled me

We will certainly be holding a BJJ grappling event this year in September- but I think Monster wants to hit somebody.

We have our fair share of reformed street fighters and unassuming gentlemen, - big and small in our ‘little’ MMA community that would be willing to go one on one with you- and we can be easily found. Didn’t Miltownkid offer you the opportunity last year??

46

[quote=“fenlander”]Monster.

If you like fighting so much then fight. You are only 30 years old and have been working out and keeping fit most of your life. So fight.
Some Chinese kids want me to coach them in MMA and boxing, won’t be for a few months though. If you want to come along them you are welcome. Work out and apply for cage fighting in the USA. Do it man put it on the line and start MMA fighting. I am 40 now and a family man so not interested. Have done submission wrestling and boxing when in my twenties and early thirties. You are welcome to spar with me though. :wink:

I think if you got involved with it then you could go far.

Just my advice.

oh yeah and when I say “kids” I mean they are in their early twenties (showing my age)[/quote]

I should get involved, I know. I suppose it’s a matter of time.

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removed due to the fact that it had nothing to do with the topic.

48

What was removed ?

49

What was removed ?[/quote]

the first rule about fight club is,you do not speak about fight club
the sec… :smiley:

50

Being the originator of this topic, I find it a little strange that the moderators should suddenly start enforcing the ‘off topic rule’. But I do agree with Dog that there have been numerous opportunities and invitations issued without any resolution of this problem. In a sense, one could say this is an extending mating season and we’re all still virgins.

Anyway, that’s not what I wanted to post about. Let’s get back to Kimbo, which in itself had nothing to do with the topic, and I should know because I made the topic.

Our friend from the street seems to be implying there is some special thing about the applied training that comes from repeated street fighting; some technique, some attitude, that makes one very dangerous. Although he never says it, there is a subtle implication that such people are more dangerous than highly trained combat athletes. It is certainly true that Kimbo would kick my ass, but that’s not the real issue. What I see as the main point is that Kimbo’s success to-date is only marginally noticeable.What is clear is that for him to achieve any more success, he MUST get training in combat sport techniques from highly experienced coaches. Certainly, at this point if he were to fight someone like Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, Tim Sylvia, or Mirko Cro Cop he would be ripped apart.

If this is correct, that Kimbo can attract attention because with little training he can credibly fight with margin professional MMA fighters, then there are clearly better examples. Bob Sapp was able to enter K-1 directly and fight some of the the top fighters in the world with almost no background. Why aren’t we focusing more on his success? Or how about Brandon Melendez, who defeated Andy in his first TUF fight. Brandon started was able to reach the finals of a BJJ competition without any training in BJJ or Jiu-jitsu whatsoever.

Kimbo’s great. But the real reason we’re talking about him is that he is billed as a street fighter. It’s not because he’s the only - or even the most successful - high-level fighter without extensive fight preparation.

51

Scott, ya bastid…HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH mating call

Just so ya know, I removed the content of two of my posts because I believed that ranting on and on while in a bad mood, imo, made me look foolish.

And yes, there have been numerous invitations to join the ring with you guys and for that I thank all of you. My problem stems within myself. I’m not sure if it’s the lack of confidence or the fact that my view on fighting in general has changed due to my life experiences. I have to get my head in gear again and I’m waiting for it to happen. I’m doing my utmost best to get back my physical form in order to give myself the ‘umph’ to get back into it. There’s still a fire raging inside of me and I’m a little apprehensive to show it again.

Kimbo: He’s one of TWO that I know of that have done well in the ring. The other being Tank Abbot. I’d love to see those two go. Abbot has been training in MMA and working on his legs and ground work. This would be a great test for Kimbo. There are in my mind, a great number of men out there that could walk into a ring and destroy trained fighters. That’s where I stand on this issue. A fight is in the moment, the drive, the will. Not how many years you’ve been training in a gym. Think about how cool headed some of these guys on the street are and have to be in order to get out of or win in these situations where it’s fuckin hairy.

[quote]“Champions aren’t made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill” - Muhammad Ali
[/quote]

52

I’m giving you a hard time, but I understand where you’re coming from and I’ll try to respect your position. No more jokes about extended courtship rituals.

This Tank Abbott thing keeps coming up. Tank was billed as a street fighter but he was as much a street fighter as Kevin Randelman or Mark Coleman or even Dan Severns, for that matter. I keep making an issue of this, but Tank was a bonafide cage fighter since before he fought Paul Varelans in UFC 6.

When it is said that Tank shows no discernible technique, I disagree. He shows no finesse, and that’s a different thing. There are other fighters who generally show little finesse, such as Matt Hughes, but since he has an extensive background in combat sports and does not call himself any of those on-the-street labels, this is interpreted differently. In addition, Hughes can be a very technically skilled fighter when he needs to be. Tank’s problem is that he seems unable to make the transition to a more creative form of defense. It’s no coincidence that he has been defeated by all the top wrestlers he has fought.

Don’t get sucked in the fighter image that the UFC is playing on its fans. Street fighters attract an audience. Just because he’s fought in unsanctioned matches doesn’t make him a street fighter in the sense that you’re talking about. In fact, this raises the question of what really does constitute a ‘street fighter’.

I would never say that combat sports is everything there is to unarmed combat. I do believe that combat sport training produces the most effective fighters and that these fighters will beat untrained but experienced fighters off the street or from the military, no matter where that fight takes place. This isn’t an iron-clad rule, but it’s a pretty good one.

Perhaps I sound a little too sure of myself, but I have heard all this before. Traditional martial arts tell me all the time they can fry me with their chi or use some other super deadly and super secret technique to stop me from snapping their arm off. I also believe that traditional fighting systems have not been adequately explored as a source of technique, but there’s just no way that anyone who has only trained with traditional techniques will ever beat a properly prepared MMA competitor.

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[quote=“M0NSTER”]Scott, ya bastid…HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH mating call

Just so ya know, I removed the content of two of my posts because I believed that ranting on and on while in a bad mood, imo, made me look foolish.

And yes, there have been numerous invitations to join the ring with you guys and for that I thank all of you. My problem stems within myself. I’m not sure if it’s the lack of confidence or the fact that my view on fighting in general has changed due to my life experiences. I have to get my head in gear again and I’m waiting for it to happen. I’m doing my utmost best to get back my physical form in order to give myself the ‘umph’ to get back into it. There’s still a fire raging inside of me and I’m a little apprehensive to show it again.

Kimbo: He’s one of TWO that I know of that have done well in the ring. The other being Tank Abbot. I’d love to see those two go. Abbot has been training in MMA and working on his legs and ground work. This would be a great test for Kimbo. There are in my mind, a great number of men out there that could walk into a ring and destroy trained fighters. That’s where I stand on this issue. A fight is in the moment, the drive, the will. Not how many years you’ve been training in a gym. Think about how cool headed some of these guys on the street are and have to be in order to get out of or win in these situations where it’s fuckin hairy.

[quote]“Champions aren’t made in gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill” - Muhammad Ali
[/quote][/quote]

Monster I am also a Tank fan. Makes me laugh when people often say he has a shite record. He fought in UFC many times and wins around 50% of his fights.

He has won more than even Andy Wang (no disrespect intended) for example who is the most decorated MMA fighter in Taiwan.

It was a great fight when he knocked out Cabbage. Cabbage was mouthing off about Tank being a crap and outdated fighter etc etc. Then bang Tank hit him with a simple right hand and knocks him out cold at 40 years of age.

Yeah Tank was a good wrestler etc but he basically wins by knocking people out with the good ol fashioned right hand.
He basically hits hard can take a punch and yeah has some good combat wrestling skills.
As for traditional martial arts I think some styles are good, but usually better if the person training in them has a mixed martial arts background to go with it.

Scott, Thai boxing and Burmese bando are traditional martial arts are you saying they are not much good compared to MMA ? Bando from Burma and Sambo are good styles. As IS JUDO!

Ok here we go again STREETFIGHTING

What about an MMA champion versus a big violent ex con with a Bowie knife or even a prison shank ? Who would win then ? Or even a stanley knife ?

How well will your BJJ guard serve you if they pull out a little knife and stick it in between your ribs ? How about if they use brass knuckles ? Baseball bat ? Broken bottle ? razor ? Is MMA the best from of self defense against these attacks ? Have you ever for example been in or watched a large football hooligan fight ? Have you been in a large gang fight ? Chairs flying bottles flying sometimes 6 on one. Running street battles. How well is your arm bar going to serve you then. I’d rather be well versed in Fillipino weapons fighting such as eskrima than BJJ in such circumstances.

Thats what street fighters do. They don’t fight fair right ? They use weapons and out number you.

Don’t become over confident Scott. What if someone shakes your hand in the bar and is all smiles then knees you in your balls or head butts you square on your nose. MMA competitions are fair; street fights are not and only the most nasty win and you don’t sound that nasty to me :smiley:

Although you could be satan’s son :smiley:
Or is that Monster :smiling_imp:

54

I have never said a single negative thing about Tank. I only maintained that he is more skilled than he lets on and that he is no sense a ‘street fighter’. He did not just climb out of the bit and into a cage. In fact, most sources that talk about it state there is no evidence that Tank ever fought in a so-called ‘pit fight’. There are other fighters who are just as brutal in their approach and what distinguishes Tank from them is not what their fights look like nor their knowledge of standard combat sport technique. As you point out, it’s not even Tank’s resume in the cage. I can’t see what makes him so different. Tank has crafted himself into an outlaw biker pit fighter when in fact he is an all-American wrestler with a decade of boxing experience and a standard UFC pedigree.

55

Not quite. Like everyone else, I like Tank Abbott. He’s a good fighter, has a huge heart (and belly), hard punches, is greatly entertaining, and seems like a great guy. But as a wrestler he’s not in the same caliber as those others. True, he wrestled for many years and was a junior college All American. That’s very impressive and has definitely helped him in MMA. But junior college is not the same as Division I or international competition.

Kevin Randlemen was a two-time NCAA Division I National Champ.

Mark Coleman was an NCAA Division I National Champ, member of the US Olympic team (taking 7th in the 1992 Olympics) and defeated Olympic gold medalist Kurt Angle at a tournament in 1995.

Dan Severn was a four time Division I All-American with more than 95 national and international titles.

Those guys are far superior wrestlers. Tank’s got wrestling skills, balance, coordination, etc., but he does like to slug it out like a street fighter.

56

Whether Tank is as good a wrestler as some is not my point. He is an extremely good wrestler and despite the way his fights get described you can see this. In his fight with Don Frye his sprawl is very good against a fighter with excellent take down skills. In Tank’s recent fight with Gary Turner he even went for a knee bar of some sort. The problem is that he missed it and Turner was able to stand up. I’ve seen Tank slam opponents and take them down with double legs. My point is that the difference between Tank and other more mainstream fighters is based much more in his reputation and on mythical stories that have sprung up around him than in the reality of his ring technique. I don’t know if he relies on big punch knockouts any more than Chuck Liddell. The most infamous stand up punchfest comes not from a Tank fight, but from Don Frye and Yoshihiro Takayama. youtube.com/watch?v=T6akJsuSp8M

Tank’s problem is not that he doesn’t understand the technical aspects of MMA, it’s that he’s not as good at the game as the amazing grapplers the sport is now attracting and so relies on his amazing punching power. He’s never won against a top grappler. His one major upset was, as Fenlander points out, against Wesely ‘Cabbage’ Correira whose style is pretty much indistinguishable from Tank’s.
youtube.com/watch?v=ZBClwe1IIUY

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[quote=“ScottSommers”] In his fight with Don Frye his sprawl is very good against a fighter with excellent take down skills… My point is that the difference between Tank and other more mainstream fighters is based much more in his reputation and on mythical stories that have sprung up around him than in the reality of his ring technique. I don’t know if he relies on big punch knockouts any more than Chuck Liddell. The most infamous stand up punchfest comes not from a Tank fight, but from Don Frye and Yoshihiro Takayama. youtube.com/watch?v=T6akJsuSp8M
youtube.com/watch?v=ZBClwe1IIUY[/quote]

(1) Don Frye is one of my all time favorites. Awesome fighter in his prime. Fantastic puncher. If you want to see a slug fest watch Frye versus Shamrock in Pride (I think it was Pride) and the fight Scott mentions above. Frye was a first rate puncher. Frye was the perfect example of excellent “traditional” MMA. Boxer*wrestler.

(2) Tank beating Cabbage was a massive upset (i was happy to see that arrogant basterd get KO’ed). It showed the world how hard he (Tank) can really punch. Maybe one of the hardest punchers ever in the sport. He was also a power lifting champion (probably the only power lifter that ever got anywhere in MMA)

(3) Tanks mythical status ? Hey Scott stop being so boring lol. I bet you were the type of kid that was the first one to tell the other kids that father Christmas never existed :smiley: Hey some of us like myth okay it makes the UFC more exciting :slight_smile: Maybe he is or was a hells angel. Who knows ?

58

guys please chill

watch this and feel the love

filecabi.net/video/pride-fear.html

turn the fucking sound up!!!

59

here is one for Scot

an early christmas present

poetv.com/video.php?vid=17178

60

Fenlander, I’m worse. I’m the guy who’d report his best friend if I saw him cheating on a test.

But seriously, watching the fight with Cabbage really does make your point. In the first fight they had, Cabbage took him apart. What happened in the rematch only goes to show that you can be a world-class fighter, but if you take Tank lightly even for a second, you can end up on your back.

The fact that he is the only powerlifter to be able to last in the cage hasn’t missed me. And there’s more to be impressed with. His record isn’t that great - 9 wins for 22 fights - but really that’s Tank right off the street. He fights the top competitors in the world, but win or lose he’s not an athlete is any sense. He doesn’t train and he appears to have no special preparation for a match. But it’s always been clear and now more than ever that if you don’t respect him like a top competitor, he’ll knock you down and eat you for lunch.

You’ll have to roast me over a fire to have me call him a street fighter, but I would agree that he’s probably the naturally toughest fighter in the world.