uncoveror.com/plants.htm
department13designs.com/vegan.html
firstscience.com/site/editor … 092003.asp
Now, wolf…let’s try to be a little more PC… 
As much as I love meat, I do feel concern for the suffering that farm animals must endure. Thankfully, things are moving in the right direction. There is still, however, one thing that bothers me about livestock farming regardless of the humane methods used to raise, transport, and kill animals, and that is the age of the slaughtered critters.
I’ve thought about opening a restaurant that would serve meat from animals that have lived a good long life. No, not road kill. Nor would I wait for them to die, but farm-raised animals that are near the end of their lifespan. The meat might be a bit tough but people could get used to it and would, in time, come to enjoy the fuller flavor. Perhaps I’ll call the restaurant “John’s Seasoned Meats Barbeque.” Would there be enough guilt-wracked carnivores to make this a winner?
So what, are we such sissies now that we have to get bent out of shape over what a few bored employees do with chickens. It wasn’t systematic and was dealt with quickly once discoved. We also don’t know if the undercover PETA guy encouraged such behavior for the camera.
I could care less for any creature that isn’t human. Unless it’s poisonous to eat, it’s going to be on the menu. Become a jainist(sp?) if you feel so strongly about it.
CYA
Okami
[quote=“Okami”]So what, are we such sissies now that we have to get bent out of shape over what a few bored employees do with chickens. It wasn’t systematic and was dealt with quickly once discoved. We also don’t know if the undercover PETA guy encouraged such behavior for the camera.
I could care less for any creature that isn’t human. Unless it’s poisonous to eat, it’s going to be on the menu. Become a jainist(sp?) if you feel so strongly about it.
CYA
Okami[/quote]
“Most Chickens would rather think about their positions in the pecking order than die.” Anonymous 
Is this true? I thought insects, some sea creatures, plants and I’m sure some other things don’t have pain receptors (just pointing that out). Let me know if I’m wrong.[/quote]
In fact, it was me who was wrong, or at least being very interpretive…
6 criteria used for classfying life are:
metabolism, responsiveness, movement, growth, differentiation, and reproduction
Responsiveness means a reaction to stimuli, and while that includes pain responses, it does not only mean that. So, while palnts exhibiting phototrophism is an example of a response to a stimulus, it has nothing to do with pain.
I overstated that - saying the ability to feel pain is one of the things that classifies life. It isn’t.
What I should have said, though it makes a far less resonant argument, is that we know birds can feel pain. That they do not have the same range of cognitive processes related to that pain that humans do, is beside the point. So knowingly adding to, or purposly causing pain to a creature for what -entertainment, frustration at other parts of your life, co-worker bonding (???) is pretty sick.
The issue here is not that some people eat chicken, or some people would rather devote their time and energy to helping people, or even that these employees at a poultry processing plant (how’s that for a euphemsim!) may or may not have done this once or over a long period of time.
It is that some people (like me) think knowingly causing pain in any creature for entertainment or whatever reason is base and immoral.
I’m not expecting anyone to reverse their views or embrace what I"m writing, but something I really believe in is adding a voice to a debate on moral issues when your perspective isn’t part of it. Otherwise, being silent is a kind of agreement. And, one of the best parts of Forumosa is that all kinds of ideas get aired.
btw, thanks miltownkid. I might have gone on saying that for years… 
That would be Peter Singer. He’s a hardcore utilitarian philosopher at Princeton. He’s argued, for instance, that the lives of higher-order animals like dolphins or dogs could be seen to be more valuable than severely disabled humans. Ergo, not many pro-life groups or disabled rights groups are particularly fond of him.
Bu Lai En:
Does not feeling right about it cause you not to eat them? Is this important enough to take action yourself to end this practice of killing fish? And what about animals with more advanced nervous systems?
Bu Lai En:
Let me answer you seriously. This comment of yours implies that the treatment of these chickens was “torture for pleasure.” I do not advocate torturing any animal, even a dumb one. I don’t believe that the individuals in the video were torturing the chickens for pleasure. Acting cavalier, sure.
So your question is invalid.
As a human being and the highest life form on this planet, I understand that there are choices that we have to make regarding life and death of lesser animals. Fowl, pigs, cattle and so on should be slaughtered with the minimum of pain involved. Does it bother me that conditions are less then humane in certain farms and ranches? No, not in the least. The fact is that we are at the top of the food chain, but we are still capable of erring. As a poster before said, this was not widespread institutionalized cruelty to animals; it was a couple of guys with attitudes. That only a few did this (and got caught) doesn’t lessen the fact that they needn’t have done what they did, but in the grand scheme of things, it barely registers on the radar of importance.
“Fish aren’t cuddly.”
Aside from some one-celled organisms, everything eats everything else. The whole planet is guilty of destroying other sentient beings in order to survive. You think plants want to be eaten? That’s why they evolved poisons, as a defense mechanism against animals munching on them. Plants aren’t stupid, they don’t go willingly to the slaughter. And you think plants don’t have sentience, well some scientists doing experiments with playing music and its effect on plant growth, they know better. That tall tree, it’s selfishly sapping nutrients from the soil that could feed a hundred wildflowers, but does it care? Noooo. Plants are such selfish greedy bastards. I’d eat as many plants as I could but unlike cows I haven’t evolved four stomachs to subsist on an entirely vegetarian diet, I gotta have my meat to survive as nature evolved this omnivore. But I eat meat ethically. That is to say, I only eat other meat eaters. It’s not a sin because I am executing murderers, vicious cold-blooded predators, and I am saving lives by stopping them from killing again. I only eat bear, tiger, cat, dog, whale, and shark meat.
And oh yeah, to pre-empt the “Hitler was a vegetarian!” “Eco-nazis!” cries, here’s a photo that explains why I am not an animal lover.
The fact that a few kids conscripted into an army can find pleasure in a kitten explains why you are not an animal lover? :loco:
KFC’s slaughters are unskilled laborers who probably don’t give a damn about the animals they are killing. It does not excuse them from torturing the animals nor does it excuse the horrible conditions of mass farming, but if you people want to have children and live in your split-level ranch houses with a big backyard in the suburbs, you do have to realize that there is a cost, that being the consumption of resources and land space. While the demands for food grow with the population, the amount of land to grow and raise it is shrinking as the population sprawls out. You cannot reduce the amount of space to grow crops, but you can with the raising of livestock and so that’s what farms are required to do: raise as much livestock in as little space as possible.
If you really want to curb the horrendous living conditions of animals for human consumption, then give up your dream of owning a little piece of land and don’t reproduce.
It’s nice that PETA is going after KFC, but not any other chicken company. In my mind, PETA is a joke. It started off with good intentions and has done a lot to improve the way animals are treated, but it has also let itself get caught up into extremist behavior and other questionable practices and seems to be letting greed interfere with its real cause. Thus why they are going after a major corporation rather than all chicken farms.
And on a side note, is it just me, or does Bea Arthur make a really bad transvestite. I swear she sounded like a guy who was a month behind on his estrogen pills.
:bravo: :bravo: 
I was thinking the same thing
That photo is PROOF that kittens collaborated with the Nazis. As a Gypsy, you can understand why I have something against felines.
[quote]That would be Peter Singer. He’s a hardcore utilitarian philosopher at Princeton. He’s argued, for instance, that the lives of higher-order animals like dolphins or dogs could be seen to be more valuable than severely disabled humans. Ergo, not many pro-life groups or disabled rights groups are particularly fond of him.
[/quote]
Right, but he’s taking it from a strictly logical/philosophical point of view. He’s not actually arguing that if one were somehow given the choice between saving the life of a dog or your retarded brother, you should save the dog.
[quote]Quote:
Well as far as I reason it, fish do have nervous systems and do suffer. I don’t feel right about causing their suffering or taking their lives.
Does not feeling right about it cause you not to eat them? Is this important enough to take action yourself to end this practice of killing fish? And what about animals with more advanced nervous systems?
Bu Lai En:
Quote:
If you think it’s fine to make chickens suffer because they have little or no intellect, then I take it you wouldn’t have a problem with torturing a ‘retard’ for pleasure?
Let me answer you seriously. This comment of yours implies that the treatment of these chickens was “torture for pleasure.” I do not advocate torturing any animal, even a dumb one. I don’t believe that the individuals in the video were torturing the chickens for pleasure. Acting cavalier, sure.
So your question is invalid.
As a human being and the highest life form on this planet, I understand that there are choices that we have to make regarding life and death of lesser animals. Fowl, pigs, cattle and so on should be slaughtered with the minimum of pain involved. Does it bother me that conditions are less then humane in certain farms and ranches? No, not in the least. The fact is that we are at the top of the food chain, but we are still capable of erring. As a poster before said, this was not widespread institutionalized cruelty to animals; it was a couple of guys with attitudes. That only a few did this (and got caught) doesn’t lessen the fact that they needn’t have done what they did, but in the grand scheme of things, it barely registers on the radar of importance.
[/quote]
Wolf, it’s nice to see a serious answer.
I don’t eat fish or any other animals.
When I said “If you think it’s fine to make chickens suffer because they have little or no intellect, then I take it you wouldn’t have a problem with torturing a ‘retard’ for pleasure?” I wasn’t intending to imply that the KFC case was torture for pleasure. More I was saying that by eating chickens we are causing them to suffer for our (culinary) pleasure. If one arguesthat this is fine, because they have no intellect, then it should also be fine to make a human of no intellect suffer for your pleasure.
You ask if my dislike of causing animals to suffer is enough fro me to take action myself. Well, my action is not to eat them. While not stopping the suffering of animals around the world, it does at least stop the suffering of those few extra animals that would have to be raised and killed for me to eat, if I still ate meat. I’m realistic. I believe that little would be achieved by me crusading and preaching ont he behalf of my ‘cause’ (and from the way people respond to PETA, it would seem to be counter-productive). I do what I do (being vegetarian), because it is something real, and easy that I can do. I don’t try and make others do it as well. I don’t even talk about these views often as it seems to alienate some people or give them the impression that I think I am better than them. In fact, responding to this topic in such detail is more than I usually do.
Brian
For anyone who hasn’t seen the video:
petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp … speed=_med
Er, obviously rather gruesome. 
I’d say…who in the hell suggested Bea Arthur as a spokesperson?
I would just like to add that thanks to the mention of PETA, I intend to eat at least one pizza tonight slathered with meat. Just as a symbolic “suck my balls, PETA”.
Sorry, folks, but this is no more inhumane than the average killing of livestock. And, of course, Western supermarkets do their utmost to disguise the “animalness” of the products we eat.