Stray dog problem

[bobepine]

@jdsmith

[quote]Oh and jd, Sean called for a flood to eradicate human beings. Aren’t you going to say something? Isn’t that a tad antagonistic?

Sean makes a hell of a better argument than you do bob,[/quote]So my arguments have to be eye to eye with yours, or at least “better” so that you do not call me antagonistic? Sounds a bit ironic to me, and antagonistic. [quote]He also doesn’t throw around strawmen or try to demean people because they don’t see eye to eye with him over the value of animals.[/quote]I asked you to show me where I demeaned people, and all you could come up with as a justification that I’m antagonistic was the fact that you felt I exaggerated by saying that some dogs were starving when they are not. Which is not what I was saying at all. As if the discussion in the other thread was specific to one or two parks where dogs are a nuisance. As if the discussion was specific to a few dogs. Is that not an exaggeration on your part? Red herring? Again, that’s ironic, and antagonistic.

Sean compared Maoman with a child killing starfish, was that also facetious of him? Is that not a tad demeaning, jd? He also compared animals with people many times in this thread, will you not say something about that either? You jump on my head every time I do to the point where I have to watch my words not to go near making human vs animals comparisons. You have done just that in the other thread already. Why can’t you carry on with this line of arguments in this thread? And how about saying that ironlady’s suggestion are what idiots would suggest? Was that a facetious comment, too? (I would be short for words, too, if I replied to her…)I’m not saying that to push Sean down, BTW, I think he makes excellent sense in both the threads, and I agree with him 100%.( ironlady’s tone is questionable, too, IMO.) Now is that not enough evidences of how inconsistent your ridiculous claims that I am antagonizing people are?

Just using this opportunity to highlight how you antagonize me a lot more than I antagonize anyone else, here. You are very inconsistent in your assessments, and with your arguments because you simply don’t like me. Wrong thread to say that, but almost everyone except Maoman has taken parts of the other discussion into this thread already.

I also hope that since you are perfectly allowed to label me antagonistic in the other thread, that I can do the same, if in my opinion, it is what you are doing. Discussing anything with you, is like dealing with a child who would prefer punching me in the face out of dislike rather than sticking to the message and the arguments. Talk about discussing the issues maturely! You said yourself a little while back that the reason why you and I often clash is because you don’t like me. So there, you think having opinions open on both sides will maybe help, so you have it.

Anyways, it’s fine with me, but I think it’s something worth pointing out,(something I want to point out anyways) and I hope that you can get past yourself, and indeed, discuss the issues maturely/discuss the message as opposed to let your dislike for me get in the way.

I think this post is likely to be temped, and that’s fine with me, too.

[maoman]

@Eric

But, speaking of menaces to society. Does anyone know about these humans who get behind the wheel of vehicles? Every single day they are smashing into something. Some of them are just plain wreckless jerks and some of them go driving while drunk. And everyday innocent people are being killed and maimed because of them. Wouldn’t the best thing to do is have these vehicles removed off the face of the earth? And also punish and fine all establishments serving alcohol to humans! I mean you just don’t know…they could get behind the wheel, and every single frickin day they are smashing into something or ripping limbs off someone.

That would be cool, but highly unlikely. Our societies and economies are built around the combustion engine. The eradication of that would bring the world as we know it to a screeching halt. A world without stray dogs would be wonderful and would have nothing but positive effects on our environment. This is what we’re all after, right? A world without strays? We just have different ideas of how to get there.

[Tigerman]

@jdsmith

The long term goal should be the total elimination of strays, not simply a reduction of their numbers.

I don’t think that is a realistic/feasible goal.

I mean, unless yinzer gonna go all Moaist on the stray dog population with a campaign (with slogans and big character posters and all) to wipe 'em all out, there will always be some strays.

Best to rid the parks/roads of aggressive strays and keep the populations down.

As I indicated, I am not at all unsympathetic to those who wish to enjoy a walk without having to worry about aggressive strays. Heck, I was a farmer for many years, and I know how farmers dealt with packs of strays that killed livestock. And I never faulted the farmers for their actions.

But, I cannot see a justification for killing non-aggressive dogs. Especially when their plight is primarily caused by human irresponsibility and callousness.

Personally, I have far more of a problem with asshole humans than I do with stray dogs. I don’t particularly care for dog shit on the street/walks/grass… but, it isn’t up there so high on my list of peeves as dumbass inconsiderate drivers on the roads (and sidewalks).

Not at all making light of what annoys others… just pointing out that I’m apparently not as bothered.

[Stray_Dog]

@ironlady

And you feel that imposing fines on those who feed these animals would not be a good way of slowly reducing the food supply?

We need people to be responsible for the neutered ones so thy don’t need to encroach on your beloved pathways/parks/etc. Don’t fine; educate. Get these feeders on your side and working responsibly and you have an army available to help you tackle the problem (to do CNR, these people are essential).

The starfish analogy makes no sense at all to this argument.

Then I’ll help you see the sense: you kill strays in one area and you create an artificial population explosion when others move in.

Stray dogs are a menace in many cases. They present a direct threat of harm to human beings who “dare” to enter “their territory” – which in densely-populated Taiwan is often residential areas. I’ve personally see a little old woman out walking her pet dog in Taipei past a temple – until out of nothing a stray materialized and killed it. It could just as well have been a child.

A stray dog? Who labeled the dog such? What you need here, once more, is education: the temple needs to learn to be responsible with the dogs it cares for. I have seen people killed by drivers; I am not calling for an extermination of drivers but greater public awareness. Ironlady, you have a tendency for knee-jerk reactions, and those are almost always the worst ones to work from.

[quote]
Cows don’t commit suicide to make beef, either. But I doubt you’re a vegetarian.[/quote]

I am surprised that someone trying to put together a sensible argument would take the risk of throwing this comment in. I have been vegetarian since 1989.

And once again, and more to the point – you still haven’t told me who in Taiwan is going to pay to have these thousands of dogs sterilized.

I have, Ironlady, but you seem to have overlooked it: communities can get the money together, community leaders can (Garden City near Wulai got NT$30,000 from the community manager to neuter and vaccinate the six or seven strays in the community instead of killing them and letting more move in, as the ones they had were harmless), or you apply to the government through a registered organization (ask Gaboman about that; his wife went to a meeting in December where the government was throwing money at groups who CNR dogs).

As always, I’m happy to answer any of your questions because I know what you’re talking about. Keep them coming.

[sandman]

Personal anecdote time: Some of you might remember just a week or two ago I posted a warning about a dog poisoner in Bitan. The final tally before he was caught was I think around 11 dogs, 5 of which were people’s pets who picked up poisoned bait while out for a walk with their owners on the hill behind my house. The others were strays, all very friendly.
I was up there just this morning and there were already three new strays up there. Those were the friendly ones who allowed themselves to be seen, but I’m sure there are more timid ones.
That’s like less than a fortnight.

[jdsmith]

I also hope that since you are perfectly allowed to label me antagonistic in the other thread, that I can do the same, if in my opinion, it is what you are doing. Discussing anything with you, is like dealing with a child who would prefer punching me in the face out of dislike rather than sticking to the message and the arguments. Talk about discussing the issues maturely! You said yourself a little while back that the reason why you and I often clash is because you don’t like me. So there, you think having opinions open on both sides will maybe help, so you have it.

So I’m a child for having an opinion that vastly differs to your own? And a violent one at that? I am open to all sorts of criticism bob, you aren’t. You have taken up this cause and because you personally feel it is noble you seem to expect all others to think so too? Caring for animals? I have absolutely no problem with that. Educating people about proper pet care? Great. Keep up the good work. But when it comes to having a discussion about how to go about solving social problems with strays, we disagree. I think I made that point in the other thread. I do not believe people are responsible for “lesser” animals because we can think logically. I am not the only one in that thread who disagrees with you, and I am not the only person who says that you cry foul everytime someone criticizes your POV.

I am doing my best to remain emotionally unattached to this thread and the other and to present my thoughts as clearly as possible. I am also open to suggestions on how to better perceive this problem, and Sean, not you, has been very helpful in that area. It takes more than a “Good post XXX :bravo:” for me to get something useful from you. Simply put, I don’t think you want to educate people here, but rather tell them how “selfish” they are.

You say you don’t demean people. OK, that’s your opinion. How about alienate them? Is that a better term? You do a good thing, no doubt about it. Because I and others do not do what you do to the extent you do though, is not reason to look down at us. We all don’t judge and value our lives in the same manner. To each their own. You appear to judge yourself by the work you do with animals. I honestly don’t mind that you judge yourself in this way (if you do, I suspect you do, if not, well, let me know and I won’t say it again); however, you can’t judge me the same way. How could that be fair? And it certainly would predjudice any discussion we would have. I don’t judge you the way I judge myself, as a great dancer, because that would be unfair to you.

Even Stimpy played a fair hand to me, and given our past, I give him credit for it. I don’t have any hidden agenda with you or Sean or anyone else. I see the same problems you see. I wonder about whether or not you guys truly want to see the dog population controlled, because sooner or later, killing off some of those dogs is going to happen in any reasonable equation.

So there we are.

I don’t like comparrisons of the stray dog problem to any other animals btw. None of them hold up.

[quote]
I mean, unless yinzer gonna go all Moaist on the stray dog population with a campaign (with slogans and big character posters and all) to wipe 'em all out, there will always be some strays.[/quote]
I agree, which is why a good CNR/education program needs to be part of a long term plan, not one campaign followed by nothing.

[Eric]

A world without stray dogs would be wonderful and would have nothing but positive effects on our environment. This is what we’re all after, right? A world without strays?

I completely agree. No homeless pets would be the ultimate goal.

We just have different ideas of how to get there

I guess so. Personally, I prefer a humane approach no matter how long it takes. I’m not going to go anywhere near the hierarchy of life forms, but I will tell you that I will gladly swap Charlie Manson, Osama or the upstairs neighbor with gang links who insists on playing majhong at 3am for any stray.

In my opinion, just culling or killing strays because of the stupidity of humans is senseless and wrong. If a couple of toddlers were playing with a loaded gun some idiot left around the house and one of the toddlers got shot, who are you going to blame? the innocent kids or the owner of the gun?

The humans have to take the responsibility and the blame. But for some reason they are either not smart, willing or humane enough to handle the responsibility and blame.

[jdsmith]

[quote=“sandman”]Personal anecdote time: Some of you might remember just a week or two ago I posted a warning about a dog poisoner in Bitan. The final tally before he was caught was I think around 11 dogs, 5 of which were people’s pets who picked up poisoned bait while out for a walk with their owners on the hill behind my house. The others were strays, all very friendly.
I was up there just this morning and there were already three new strays up there. Those were the friendly ones who allowed themselves to be seen, but I’m sure there are more timid ones.
That’s like less than a fortnight.[/quote]

So, why not do an experiment? See if what Sean says works works.

The dickhead poisoner has done the first part, a culling. Has that alone had a big effect on the dog population Sandman? (IE, how many dogs are there now, compared to before?)

I for one would like to see if a small area can be controlled. Last night, I discussed with Sean setting up a CNR program in the new area we are moving to in san xia , as the construction guys are feeding strays, and they remain after the work has been completed.

[sandman]

[quote]So, why not do an experiment? See if what Sean says works works.
[/quote]
I don’t need to. Garden City is just up the road from me and I have friends there who I visit often. I’ve seen the results of their CNR program and it’s been very successful.

The dickhead poisoner has done the first part, a culling. Has that alone had a big effect on the dog population Sandman? (IE, how many dogs are there now, compared to before?)

Of course its had an effect – some of the dogs have died horribly in agony. In less than two weeks at least half of them have been replaced with other strays. I imagine that within the next week or so the numbers will be back to previous levels.

I for one would like to see if a small area can be controlled. Last night, I discussed with Sean setting up a CNR program in the new area we are moving to in san xia , as the construction guys are feeding strays, and they remain after the work has been completed.

Garden City is the only small-scale example I have personal experience of. It has worked exactly as Sean describes. The dogs appear happy and, more important from your POV, the residents are also happy.

[jdsmith]

Garden City is the only small-scale example I have personal experience of.

Can we hear more about this place? What it was like and what was done to control the population?

[ironlady]

@Stray Dog

[quote=“ironlady”]Stray dogs are a menace in many cases. They present a direct threat of harm to human beings who “dare” to enter “their territory” – which in densely-populated Taiwan is often residential areas. I’ve personally see a little old woman out walking her pet dog in Taipei past a temple – until out of nothing a stray materialized and killed it. It could just as well have been a child.

A stray dog? Who labeled the dog such? What you need here, once more, is education: the temple needs to learn to be responsible with the dogs it cares for. I have seen people killed by drivers; I am not calling for an extermination of drivers but greater public awareness. Ironlady, you have a tendency for knee-jerk reactions, and those are almost always the worst ones to work from.
[/quote]

The dog that killed was not the temple’s dog, nor was the temple caring for it. The people who labeled the dog thus were those who witnessed the attack, people from the neighborhood and the temple. I wouldn’t go talking about knee-jerk reactions, there.

And once again, and more to the point – you still haven’t told me who in Taiwan is going to pay to have these thousands of dogs sterilized.

I have, Ironlady, but you seem to have overlooked it: communities can get the money together, community leaders can (Garden City near Wulai got NT$30,000 from the community manager to neuter and vaccinate the six or seven strays in the community instead of killing them and letting more move in, as the ones they had were harmless), or you apply to the government through a registered organization (ask Gaboman about that; his wife went to a meeting in December where the government was throwing money at groups who CNR dogs).

As always, I’m happy to answer any of your questions because I know what you’re talking about. Keep them coming. [/quote]

Yeah, right, communities can spend NT$30,000 (more than month’s salary for most working people in Taiwan) to neuter six or seven stray animals that are not theirs. Let’s multiply that by – how many? And remember that people living in a posh “community” are in a far better position to shell out this kind of money than Joe Zhang who drives a truck. As for the government putting out enough money to take care of the problem on a national scale – I think we both know that is a fantasy, any more than it is able to take care of, say, its disadvantaged human citizens.

The strays you cite in Garden City were “harmless”. That’s great. What about the ones Maoman is facing off against? They don’t sound so harmless, do they? Would neutering and vaccinating them solve their aggressive tendencies? Could that be guaranteed beyond a reasonable doubt? How about if it were your child playing on that street? Still happy with the level of certitude?

It might be nice to have the resources to CNR all those animals, but they don’t exist. So, what do you realistically propose to do about it? The problem can be solved in the more affluent areas, or those with volunteer intervention, but in the average back alley of places like Sanchong or poor areas in other parts of Taiwan, it’s not going to happen that way. I think sometimes a lot of foreigners in Taiwan lose sight of just how financially blessed we are in comparison to the average person in Taiwan.

CNR is ONE option, but it seems as though it has to be used in concert with other options as well. CNR on its own is not feasible given the econonic realities of Taiwan.

I have to agree with jdsmith on this one. The first step toward having a dialogue with people whose opinions are not congruent with yours is to stop being so condescending. Words like “knee-jerk reaction” and “help you understand” will not get you far toward persuading people, and they seem to be common elements of posts from people on this board who support CNR and rescue in Taiwan. Once again the tone is giving the solid impression that those who share your opinion are Right and all others are Stupid. Let’s try to stick to the facts of the matter, instead, okay? Care for animals, fine. Try to persuade others, fine. But ix-nay on the calling them children for disagreeing with you. It’s tiresome.

[nemesis]

[quote=“ironlady”]Yeah, right, communities can spend NT$30,000 (more than month’s salary for most working people in Taiwan) to neuter six or seven stray animals that are not theirs. Let’s multiply that by – how many? And remember that people living in a posh “community” are in a far better position to shell out this kind of money than Joe Zhang who drives a truck. As for the government putting out enough money to take care of the problem on a national scale – I think we both know that is a fantasy, any more than it is able to take care of, say, its disadvantaged human citizens.
[/quote]

Okay, that being said, each person did not contribute 30K and obviously it was important enough to them to be willing to part with a few hundred dollars. In exchange, there is not a saturation of puppies terrorizing the neighbourhood and they know that, having made a donation, they are not directly responsible for the extermination of individuals who lived there in that way through no choice of their own.

Also, if you talk to veterinarians beforehand, some will be willing to give discounts because they are responsible and understand that this is the ultimate solution to overpopulation. Some will also give discounts if they know that you’re bringing in more than one dog. My husband and I have had two strays spayed, and received significant discounts both times, but only once the vet had seen the dogs and ascertained that they were, indeed, strays.

If humanity is responsible for them being there in the first place, humanity should not blame the dogs for having the audacity to exist. Granted, the aggression is an issue, but this can be resolved by using a vinegar/water mixture in a super soaker gun (as another poster suggested); once or twice and they WILL learn; dogs are smart. Unfortunately, they’re not smart enough to know that bringing puppies into the world in such an inhumane environment will result in their puppies’ death, and possibly their own.

[Stray_Dog]

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote=“sandman”]Personal anecdote time: Some of you might remember just a week or two ago I posted a warning about a dog poisoner in Bitan. The final tally before he was caught was I think around 11 dogs, 5 of which were people’s pets who picked up poisoned bait while out for a walk with their owners on the hill behind my house. The others were strays, all very friendly.
I was up there just this morning and there were already three new strays up there. Those were the friendly ones who allowed themselves to be seen, but I’m sure there are more timid ones.
That’s like less than a fortnight.[/quote]

So, why not do an experiment? See if what Sean says works works.

The dickhead poisoner has done the first part, a culling. Has that alone had a big effect on the dog population Sandman? (IE, how many dogs are there now, compared to before?)[/quote]

I really don’t see the point of the culling pre-CNR. The poisoner got many of the dogs and already some have moved in. If we are to CNR, we need to get 67 percent of the population. If you cull a large number of the dogs, you have no idea of the number of dogs about to move in. But, it might be safe to say that the 6 strays would probably be replaced by 6 more, right? The ones moving in have left an area that others can move into, and there will be the population explosion, albeit smaller as the resources probably weren’t so good.

You need to know your CNR target. Culling means destroying the known dogs. Then you have to wait for those who would move in to do just that, so you can be sure your study will not be affected by more moving in during or after the cull that you propose. And you would have to gain the trust of these new dogs, etc. I’m not being argumentative; I really can’t see the point of culling first, other than to give some short-term satisfaction to those who are fed up with the problem.

[Stray_Dog]

@jdsmith

[quote]Garden City is the only small-scale example I have personal experience of.

Can we hear more about this place? What it was like and what was done to control the population?[/quote]

http://www.wretch.cc/blog/lovepet

These people do a fantastic job of creating harmony between the free-roaming dogs and the community. Theirs is a model that works and should be adopted by others. It’s extremely well done.

I have to say, I work very closely with this group, and they will tell you that th biggest problem they have is with owned dogs, not strays. Those are now the ones who are roaming intact or aggressive and noisy from being chained up. Very interesting point to take into consideration.

[Stray_Dog]

Ironlady, you are not reading any of the facts I am taking the trouble to post, and you keep asking questions that have already been answered. I really don’t know what to tell you other than to go back and read my other posts in this and the other thread.

I’m not being a jerk, I just won’t get tied up in rewriting and rewriting; I don’t have the time.

By the way, you know that temples feed strays, right? I’m not alone in possessing that little nugget of info?

[TomHill]

In Maomans case, couldn’t they simply kill/ neuter the females? That would break up the party.

[Dragonbones]

What do you think of the following plan, then?

1. Catch, neuter and imprison any unlicensed breeders. Fine anyone caught buying from them. Run an education campaign on this point.
2. Require breeders to sell only chipped animals and to register the owners. Heavy fines, jail terms and enforcement. Require vets to scan for chips all animals brought to them, and to inform the owners that they’re required by law to chip them before releasing them back to the owner. Run an education campaign on this point.
3. Severely fine any owner of an animal on the streets who has not contacted the pound to look for their “missing” animal. This eliminates the ‘it ran away’ excuse. Run an education campaign on this point.
4. Put down any aggressive strays, and CNR, vaccinate, collar and/or chip the remainder. The collar and/or chip are to ID it as a CNR stray; the animal catchers in the future can then scan strays they pick up in the future. Or maybe just the collar is adequate?
5. Run cleanup campaigns in stray-ridden areas to eliminate food sources. Run an education campaign on this point.
6. Run education campaigns to deter feeding. Fine feeders, at first a small amount, since they are likely animal lovers ignorantly contributing to the problem, and then hefty amounts for repeat offenders.

[maoman]

What about a bb gun? The kind that shoots plastic pellets? I’ve been hit with one before and they don’t feel nice, but it’s hardly cruel and unusual punishment to ping a dog that’s behaving aggressively, right? Those would probably keep dogs away from us as we do our thing, and once they’ve learned the relationship between proximity to other people and a stinging pain in their rump, both sides should get along relatively easily. Now if we could just figure out a way to keep them from shitting on the footpaths!

[Stray_Dog]

@ironlady

It might be nice to have the resources to CNR all those animals, but they don’t exist. So, what do you realistically propose to do about it? The problem can be solved in the more affluent areas, or those with volunteer intervention, but in the average back alley of places like Sanchong or poor areas in other parts of Taiwan, it’s not going to happen that way. I think sometimes a lot of foreigners in Taiwan lose sight of just how financially blessed we are in comparison to the average person in Taiwan.

They did it in India with great success.

CNR is ONE option, but it seems as though it has to be used in concert with other options as well. CNR on its own is not feasible given the econonic realities of Taiwan.

Absolutely. See my other posts.

I have to agree with jdsmith on this one. The first step toward having a dialogue with people whose opinions are not congruent with yours is to stop being so condescending. Words like “knee-jerk reaction” and “help you understand” will not get you far toward persuading people, and they seem to be common elements of posts from people on this board who support CNR and rescue in Taiwan. Once again the tone is giving the solid impression that those who share your opinion are Right and all others are Stupid. Let’s try to stick to the facts of the matter, instead, okay? Care for animals, fine. Try to persuade others, fine. But ix-nay on the calling them children for disagreeing with you. It’s tiresome.

I will try not to respond in kind any more.

And I am all for sticking to the facts; please see my other posts.

[Stray_Dog]

@TomHill

In Maomans case, couldn’t they simply kill/ neuter the females? That would break up the party.

Aiming for the females is very effective for rapidly reducing numbers but can actually make aggression and other unwanted behaviour much worse (males fight more with fewer females to compete over, amongst other things).

With this in mind, we aim to neuter all dogs, regardless of gender.