Be careful; you’re beginning to sound patronizing now. 
Let’s make one thing clear: I am not here to say that firing pellets at dogs is cruel - read through the posts I made and I think you will find I have never said that. What I’m saying is that it will make things worse for others. There are better ways - as others have suggested but been ignored - of removing this problem, and they start with not escalating it.
Go ahead. Beat the dogs. Shoot them with whatever makes you feel happy. But it will not bring about the result you are looking for.
[quote]
I’m not advocating random acts of cruelty, nor am I advocating violence. However, if a man were threatening or attacking you, would you not fight back?[/quote]
Take a look at any websites or books or talk to any decent martial-arts instructors about this, and I bet the first thing they will tell you is that muggers, attackers, whatever tend to watch body language when choosing a victim. When throwing huge people out of my bar, I didn’t do it by force or by smacking them in the face; I did it by employing confident body language and by being careful not to do anything that might make the situation worse. (I can tell you some really funny stories about how I bluffed some very nasty guys into backing down, both in the UK and the US. )
An interesting question: since Maoman beat the dogs with sticks and threw rocks at them, what has been the result? Has it happened again? Do the dogs now leave him and others alone?
So my question is, if the practical consequences desired when shooting the dogs are that the dogs become more aggressive, how practical is that? If the said practical methods to solve the problem only make the problem worse, how practical is that? It’s not, in fact it’s the opposite.
It’s easy to say that that I care more for the dogs than I do for people to the extent where I would jeopardizing people’s safety, but it’s not the case. I’ve said it in this thread already, look:[quote=“I”]I would also like for people to be safe outside their house. In fact, I think that the safety of humans should come first. Dealing with feces is one thing, but dealing with the physical threat of being attacked by strays is another story altogether.[/quote]
This said, I work with dogs, and so does Sean, and we are both telling you that this is not a practical approach that will re-instate a safe environment. It will only make it worse. There is no need to have extensive experience working with dogs to know that. Everyone has seen how aggressive pets can become when they are regularly harmed by their owners. The same can be said about any animals that are tampered with, and examples of that are plentiful.
[quote=“Maoman”]Remember too, that I’m not looking to get involved in a cause. I just want to be able to walk where I want, when I want, without looking over my shoulder, “posturing”, spending a lot of money or time, and waiting 6 years, 6 months, or even 6 weeks doesn’t interest me. 6 days for the problem to go away is ok.
I guess if anyone is really concerned about these dogs they can go and try to catch them (good luck!), neuter them, and try to adopt them out. Please don’t bring them back if you can at all help it.[/quote]
I think what many people are trying to say is that there is no quick cure. And what seems like it will make things worse.
How many times do you think the dogcatchers have been up there? How many of those dogs are old? It’s a recurring cycle, and each time the dogs get more wild, as new generations are able to be born to take advantage of the newly available resources.
So, my advice:
(1) Learn how to behave around strange dogs
(2) Tell that old lady to feed the dogs elsewhere (you can tell her not to feed at all, but experience shows that it will fall on deaf ears).
(3) Get some lion dung from the zoo and start leaving it around that area (hopefully it won’t attract lions 
)
(4) If the dogs come back, look into a CNR program.
(5) If there is still a problem after 6 months, work out who the most aggressive dogs are and arrange to have them removed (remove all, and more will breed/come).
I really cannot think of any other options that will work for you. There is no instant solution, only short-term ones that will eventually worsen the situation.
I truly and sincerely sympathize with your concerns, MM. I’ve had countless run-ins with aggressive strays and aggressive pets and their jerkoff owners. I finally got tired of hitting and kicking the dogs and cussing out the jerkoff humans.
Now I carry a three foot long bamboo stick with me when I walk my two wimps. Any aggressive dog approaches with bad intent, I simply raise the stick and they get the message. I’ve not had to hit or kick any dog, stray or pet, nor cuss out any jerkoff human since I began carrying the stick.
I don’t like hitting/kicking dogs, and I’m not crazy about cussing out jerkoffs. I now can speak softly because I carry a big stick. Voila!
That’s obviously no solution. If x number of dogs are taken away, x number of dogs will take their place.
Unless, the stray population is reduced. Stray Dog’s method seems to work.
A quick fix is barely a fix.
As requested by Joesax:
From a NZ govt website, http://www.ccc.govt.nz/animals/DealingWithAggressiveDogs.asp:
[quote]If Threatened
Many dog bites are the result of people reacting wrongly when they are approached or threatened by a dog.
The initial reaction should be to stop and remain completely still. Eye contact with the dog should be avoided and it should be spoken to gently.
A command such as “sit” or “stay” can be given softly to the dog because many will obey these. All threatening gestures such as yelling at the dog, waving one’s arm or rushing at it should be avoided. In some circumstances these actions can scare a dog away, but other dogs may react by attacking. Unless the person has the skills, experience and the equipment to deal with this, any reaction that may accentuate the dog’s aggression is not advisable. Erratic nervous movements or screaming will also cause the dog to advance further. Crouching to reduce one’s body size may relax some dogs, but any movements must be made slowly and deliberately. An article of clothing can be carefully removed and used take the first bite if the dog suddenly lunges.
If the dog relaxes the person should back away slowly. Turning and running are signals for the dog to chase and attack. Most people are bitten moving away from a dog when they turn and run. If the incident occurs outside or near the dog’s home it is important for the person threatened to gradually increase the distance from where the dog lives, as dogs are usually less aggressive on neutral ground.
If Attacked
If you believe it is a full on attack reach down and pick up a hand full of stones, shingle or whatever and throw it at the dog.
If that fails grab your clip board or briefcase or whatever, and offer it to the dog keeping it well away from your body. If the dog is truly aggressive he will grab the object and hold on, do not let go of the object, if you do he will soon realise that it is not you and will likely attack again.
Normally after he realises he is having little or no effect he will stop the attack (or at least give you time to plan your next move).
Only strike the dog as a last resort, when a dog is in attack mode pain can incite them more.
Never try to kick the dog when he is facing you (it’s reported that a dog can bite ten times before we can respond.
If you are knocked to the ground remain motionless in the foetal position, and protect your face by crossing your arms above your head.[/quote]
I didn’t see this episode, but someone posted about it on a forum (Cesar Millan is the guy they call the Dog Whisperer; he’s an expert on how to alter a dog’s behavior by changing your own):
[quote]Cesar Millan did an episode on Dog Whisperer about this. he was educating mail carriers on how to deal with loose dogs.
many of the carriers had been harrassed or bitten by dogs and had a fear of them.
You can carry pepper spray with you, JUST incase the dog does try to rush in and bite you, but be warned, some breeds it only pisses them off to get sprayed….
Carry a stick, or a jacket, but also be warned… some dogs, like mine, are not intimidated by objects and it only provokes them further to get rid of you.
Best thing to do is make yourself look as big and imposing as possible, sorta like they tell you to do when you’re confronted with a mountain lion or bear.
Now, if the dog attacks and keeps attacking (most dogs will just nip and run away) but in the event you are being mauled, then get into a fetal position and cover your ears with your arms, tuck your head under your chest and wrap your hands around your neck and dont move and DONT scream or cry… that will stroke their prey drive even more… Dogs will rarely keep attacking if you stay completely still. the goal is to protect any extremities and vital areas, ears, nose, face, neck/throat, stomach. when dogs attack, those are the areas that suffer the most damage.
The other thing is dont travel alone in areas where you know there are bad dogs.
Most dogs are putting on a show for you, they dont really intend to attack, but if you run from them they WILL chase and possibly nip at you… DONT run!! Dont make eye contact. just try to get away as quickly as possible and showing as little fear as possible.[/quote]
This from the same forum:
[quote]Don’t run! The chances of you out running a dog are slim to non-existant. Even a Chihuahua can probably catch you. Running will also just encourage the dog to give chase.
If you’re confronted by a dog, cross your arms over your chest, avoid eye contact, and slowly back away. Using a calm voice, tell the dog “Stay. Staaaay. Staaaaaay.” as you back away.
A container of ground black pepper is a better choice than pepper spray. Pepper spray can just make the dog more angry, and his adrenaline levels will go up, counteracting the effects of the pepper spray. Ground pepper will make him sneeze. A lot. And while he’s sneezing, you can get away.
You can also carry something with you, like an umbrella. Don’t threaten the dog with it or try to hit him with it. Instead, hold it between you and the dog, giving him something else to bite instead of you. Some dogs will be deterred simply by having the umbrella opened in their face.[/quote]
Seems the ground pepper may work the same as TC’s vinegar solution.
Many more websites offer the same advice, although none others that I found proscribed throwing anything at the dogs, even as a very last resort, and even if you you weren’t supposed to hit the dog.
The only instances where physical violence was seen as necessary was once the dog had actually attacked, and of course this was an obvious self-defence strategy. Again, they all suggest not provoking the dog by physically threatening him, as this can often cause the attack that you would now have to defend yourself against.
Just to make this clear: posturing requires less time and effort than throwing stuff.
And if a dog is truly aggressive, remove it; public safety is paramount. Having said that, bear in that if the dog is a pack leader, it would be better to neuter him (and the others) and leave him there to keep unknown (unaltered) dogs away.
Hehehehe… A Teddy Roosevelt fan! 
I think a few of you don’t really know how minor a pain stimulus these plastic bbs really are. Oddly enough, I used this method once when I went camping to clear away bothersome strays. It worked. It worked so well that Mr He and I started a little war, shooting each other. As a human who’s been on the receiving end of these things, I can say the worst these pellets will do is sting a little from close range. I think a few people here are making a big deal out of nothing.
What I mostly see here from Ironlady and Maoman is no more than: “Oh boo hoo! There are nasty stray dogs! I don’t like them! I wish somebody would DO something. Not me, though! I just don’t like them! I wish they’d go away!”
When confronted with the sure and certain knowledge that it’s a problem that’s NOT going to go away any time soon, the best they can come up with is “Oh boo hoo! But I don’t LIKE them! I want them to be got rid of! NOW!”
These are not hypotheticals we’re taking about here. The fact that killing strays is NOT going to alleviate the problem is just that – an absolute proven FACT.
So there’s little point in just killing them. Others will just move in, and very very quickly at that.
Sean offers a method that can stabilize and allow management of strays, including the killing of potentially dangerous ones, but it’ll take too long, so all you can say is “Oh Boo Hoo! I want them gone NOW!”
Face it. It is NOT going to happen unless you can employ someone to patrol the area every day or two with traps and guns. Extrapolate that to all over Taiwan? And of course it STILL wouldn’t get rid of all the strays, so there’s STILL the chance that you “might” get bitten. Fantastic proposition! Really.
You guys are offering absolutely NOTHING to the argument other than “I don’t like stray dogs around my place and I wish they were gone.”
Sean is patronizing? Maybe. There again, maybe its justified.
Now I carry a three foot long bamboo stick with me when I walk my two wimps. Any aggressive dog approaches with bad intent, I simply raise the stick and they get the message. I’ve not had to hit or kick any dog, stray or pet, nor cuss out any jerkoff human since I began carrying the stick.
I don’t like hitting/kicking dogs, and I’m not crazy about cussing out jerkoffs. I now can speak softly because I carry a big stick. Voila!
[/quote]Best, and most practical short term suggestion in this thread. Excellent method. Are you sure it’s a bamboo stick, and not a cane, though.
Haha! Yeah, its a stick, not a cane. Too short for a cane.
And really, carrying that stick has changed everything for my dogs and I. I hated hitting and kicking dogs, but, I had to protect my dogs. Problem with hitting and kicking aggressive dogs is that I only did so when they attacked my dogs. By that time, my dogs were already bit… not very good protection, on my part.
With the stick, all I need do is show it to the aggressive dogs. I needn’t swing it, or yell, or chase the aggressive dogs. I just look at them (with the sandman stink eye) and calmly show them the stick. I suppose many of these dogs have been on the receiving end of a stick enough times to know that it isn’t something they wish to experience again.
I do remain calm and I make my wimps calm down also. I’ve been carrying this stick for over a year now, at least twice daily, and have not had any incidents since then.
Well, OK, Bjorn was bit on his face recently by a poodle in our lane on one of his between-walks pee breaks. I didn’t have my stick. Lesson learned.
[quote=“sandman”]What I mostly see here from Ironlady and Maoman is no more than: “Oh boo hoo! There are nasty stray dogs! I don’t like them! I wish somebody would DO something. Not me, though! I just don’t like them! I wish they’d go away!”
When confronted with the sure and certain knowledge that it’s a problem that’s NOT going to go away any time soon, the best they can come up with is “Oh boo hoo! But I don’t LIKE them! I want them to be got rid of! NOW!”
These are not hypotheticals we’re taking about here. The fact that killing strays is NOT going to alleviate the problem is just that – an absolute proven FACT.
So there’s little point in just killing them. Others will just move in, and very very quickly at that.
Sean offers a method that can stabilize and allow management of strays, including the killing of potentially dangerous ones, but it’ll take too long, so all you can say is “Oh Boo Hoo! I want them gone NOW!”
Face it. It is NOT going to happen unless you can employ someone to patrol the area every day or two with traps and guns. Extrapolate that to all over Taiwan? And of course it STILL wouldn’t get rid of all the strays, so there’s STILL the chance that you “might” get bitten. Fantastic proposition! Really.
You guys are offering absolutely NOTHING to the argument other than “I don’t like stray dogs around my place and I wish they were gone.”
Sean is patronizing? Maybe. There again, maybe its justified.[/quote]
Gee, Sandman, way to help solve the problem! Golly, we could all learn from your posting style, content and volume. :bravo: :bravo: I’m sure that everyone, no matter what his or her personal view on stray dogs, now feels that the thread has been summarized, improved, and made clear for them through the selfless contribution of Sandman. And I certainly apologize to Maoman and Gus for having wasted all that bandwidth posting, when what I obviously meant to say was just what Sandman has laid forth. Goodness. Clearly my bad. We should all simply do what Sandman says. Yes, much better all round. I’ll just go look up Maoman now so we can have a good cry.
What a totally dickish post to make, Ironlady. Yes, my post summed up what you’ve been saying. Don’t like it? Don’t blame me. What HAVE you offered to the argument, other than “Sean’s way is useless?” I sure can’t see it, other than your thing about “education,” which Animals Taiwan already does, so I don’t even see the point of THAT offering.
I suggest you put me on ignore or simply don’t read my posts if you don’t like them. Or rebut, of course. Good luck with that.
MY post makes a number points about the topic which you can either agree with or not. I don’t really give a fuck either way, seeing as you don’t even live here and appear sorely out of touch with the situation Animals Taiwan and Sean are dealing with every day. Your post, on the other hand, makes the point that you don’t like me. Fantastic stuff, Ironlady. 
[quote=“sandman”]What a totally dickish post to make, Ironlady. Yes, my post summed up what you’ve been saying. Don’t like it? Don’t blame me. What HAVE you offered to the argument, other than “Sean’s way is useless?” I sure can’t see it, other than your thing about “education,” which Animals Taiwan already does, so I don’t even see the point of THAT offering.
I suggest you put me on ignore or simply don’t read my posts if you don’t like them. Or rebut, of course. Good luck with that.
MY post makes a number points about the topic which you can either agree with or not. I don’t really give a fuck either way, seeing as you don’t even live here and appear sorely out of touch with the situation Animals Taiwan and Sean are dealing with every day. Your post, on the other hand, makes the point that you don’t like me. Fantastic stuff, Ironlady. [/quote]
Whatever. Let those who have eyes to read read what has been said.
Check out this baby: (this and other even better models are available in Taipei.)
It uses 6mm plastic pellets, and it looks like a toy right? Well, it’s a bit more than that, and I doubt you’d want to be on the receiving end of a pellet shot from this fellow. The said inoffensive plastic projectile travels at speeds of 360 mps. Get hit with one of these guys, and you’ll need a surgeon to remove the pellet from your ass.
[quote=“Sandman”]Yes, my post summed up what you’ve been saying. Don’t like it? Don’t blame me.[/quote]Get used to it, man. I’ve been accused of causing harm to the organization I dedicate my life to, of being antagonistic, of being arrogant, of being patronizing, of being disrespectful, of lacking logic, and I and others have been ridiculed with the term “pet crusaders.” When I asked for quotes or any kind support to back up these claims, all I got is a response along the lines of “your posts are a failure, and don’t ask me to prove it.” It’s a real joke, if you ask me.
I understand that I operate an organization, and I understand that it’s best to remain polite and professional. (while keeping in mind that people’s safety comes first!) However, saying that someone’s ideas are not up to par, selfish, incongruous, absurd, is still only addressing an idea, and not the person behind the idea. People don’t like to hear these things, and well, if I have to avoid saying that killing dogs to control the population is absurd, or that starving animals (when there are other manageable solutions) is selfish and incongruous, I think it’s pointless to post at all.
Besides, Forumosa is not going to make or break the organization I work for. Far from that, in fact.
Comes a time when you care deeply about something, that saying what you think is better than to bite your tongue. If others don’t like it and send low blows your way, so be it.
Cheers!
Bobepine wrote: [quote]Get used to it, man. I’ve been accused of causing harm to the organization I dedicate my life to, of being antagonistic, of being arrogant, of being patronizing, of being disrespectful, of lacking logic, and I and others have been ridiculed with the term “pet crusaders.” [/quote]
Come on man, it’s catchy; Pet Crusaders just rolls off the tongue, and it’s not ridicule unless you choose to take it as such.
You’re going to have to be patient with promoting CNR. It’s new and people have not seen it in action. Another prob is that it seems counter-intuitive, certainly less intuitive than culling. Because of these factors, you’ll be arguing and explaining the same points over and over again for the foreseeable future. However, if CNR is as effective as you say, then in a couple of years there should be enough local success stories to have caused a change in opinions.
[quote]Come on man, it’s catchy; Pet Crusaders just rolls off the tongue, and it’s not ridicule unless you choose to take it as such. [/quote]I’ll take your word for it, Almas John. Thanks for clarifying that you did not mean to ridicule some of us who really poor our gut into this problem. 
[quote]You’re going to have to be patient with promoting CNR. It’s new and people have not seen it in action. Another prob is that it seems counter-intuitive, certainly less intuitive than culling. Because of these factors, you’ll be arguing and explaining the same points over and over again for the foreseeable future. However, if CNR is as effective as you say, then in a couple of years there should be enough local success stories to have caused a change in opinions.[/quote]You make sense here. Maybe I should post some pics of the mangled dogs I currently care for because this problem has been ignored and inadequately addressed for years. Patience is a challenge alone when looking in the eyes of some of our desperate four legged friends…
Problem is, either CNR works or not, it will never be approved by people who want the dogs gone NOW, and who are willing to kill a whole pack of them to have their neighborhood cleaned up for only a couple days…[quote=“Maoman”]I think I might get a grace period of days, weeks, possibly even months! I’ll take what I can get. [/quote]
The point that Sandman et al seem to be missing here is that those who do not advocate a pure CNR response are not saying do NOT CNR. They are saying that CNR needs to be part of an effective program that WILL provide some quicker results than those to be expected in the term of years. There is nothing sub-par about such logic; it merely takes into account the fact that any solution or set of solutions has to function in the real world and (in most cases) be implemented by ordinary people, not necessarily always by specialists or people who “work with dogs”.
You don’t teach the average person English pronunciation by painstakingly explaining the articulatory apparatus, its anatomy and how the sounds are produced by the structures. You use methods intended for pedagogy. Sometimes they are not quite linguistically accurate in a strict sense, but the point is to address the problem and provide progress. Over the course of the course (as it were) there is time to introduce other concepts. But if you don’t get people to where they can at least say “Hello” in English, they’ll quit. Same thing here – particularly when most people are more concerned about the safety of their children or pets than about their foreign language abilities.
[quote=“ironlady”]The point that Sandman et al seem to be missing here is that those who do not advocate a pure CNR response are not saying do NOT CNR. They are saying that CNR needs to be part of an effective program that WILL provide some quicker results than those to be expected in the term of years. There is nothing sub-par about such logic; it merely takes into account the fact that any solution or set of solutions has to function in the real world and (in most cases) be implemented by ordinary people, not necessarily always by specialists or people who “work with dogs”. [/quote]Why do you, on one hand, post long explanations of the Taiwanese culture in which you challenge the ability of Taiwanese to treat animals humanly, while OTOH, you advocate killing dogs and shooting them with bb guns? While you think sandman et all are missing the point, the point is that there is a humane solution to this problem; CNR.
[quote]particularly when most people are more concerned about the safety of their children or pets than about their foreign language abilities.[/quote]Again, if you are concerned with the safety of families and their children, do not advocate shooting the dogs with bb guns.
That’s two times in one post where your previously and currently expressed ideas of humane handling of animals, and the need for safety come in conflict with your suggested methods.
1-killing dogs is not humane.
2-Shooting dogs is not humane either, and it will make things even more unsafe, if, only if the dogs are to become more aggressive, and they will.
You are missing the point, ironlady, not sandman et all.
Sandman (and evidently others, not just intending to pick on him, but he is so far the most vituperatively abusive in negating all statements by other points of view) is indeed missing the point if he feels after the past how many pages that no one not self-identifying as a pure CNR proponent has posted anything that makes sense – as he has said. (Getting kinda aggressive is our Sandman today… do you think CNR would take care of that aggression, so folks could post without carrying a big stick? 
)
The whole point with considering cultural background is the ability to imagine ways of thinking that are not yours. Extending that, the Pure-CNR folks seem to be so caught up in the idea that it is the only way to go that they refuse to consider that there are options such as CNR combined with more immediate fixes that might not bring about precise same results they envision, but which might resolve the problem in the view of the folks who are complaining about the dog problem in the first place.
The “mixed method” people are not against CNR; I think they simply see the need to see some way of being able to walk outside within a matter of weeks, not years. And as has been said by many, not just by me, if you can’t get popular support for pure CNR, you won’t be able to implement it on a large scale or for a prolonged period of time as seems to be necessary. Providing people with some relief from the immediate problem plus a long-term solution tends to bring more people on board to work with you.