Support for a Palastinian State Alongside Israel

Politics International Politics
1

Split from: [url=Joseph Lieberman: The Last Functioning Democratic Brain? - #14 by imyourbiggestfan Lieberman: The Last Functioning Democratic Brain?[/url]

Its a well-know failing, actually, Spook - not being able to see the wood for the trees. Lieberman is not guilty of it, that is all.

You may want to justify your comments that nearly half the population of Israel has no civil rights. I think you are guilty of exaggeration. If Lieberman is similarly guilty, I think it is to a far lesser extent than you.[/quote]

It’s this moral blindspot concerning the condition of the Palestinian people which makes any U.S. credibility in Iraq or anywhere else in the Middle East all but impossible.

"Collective punishment, closures and violations of economic and social rights

Increasing restrictions imposed by the Israeli authorities on the movement of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories caused unprecedented hardship for Palestinians, hindering or preventing their access to work, education, medical care, family visits and other activities of daily life. Closures, military checkpoints, curfews and a barrage of other restrictions confined Palestinians to their homes or immediate surroundings most of the time.

The restrictions were a major cause of the virtual collapse of the Palestinian economy, resulting in a dramatic increase in unemployment, which stood at close to 50 per cent, and poverty, with two thirds of the Palestinian population living below the poverty line and an increasing number suffering from malnutrition and other health problems.

Hundreds of Israeli army checkpoints and blockades prevented Palestinians from using main roads and many secondary roads that were freely used by Israeli settlers living in illegal settlements in the Occupied Territories. Closures and restrictions on movement were routinely increased in reprisal for attacks by Palestinian armed groups.

Restrictions on the movement of Palestinians were further increased by the construction by Israel of a fence/wall in the western part of the West Bank and around Jerusalem. Israel claims that the fence/wall, composed of fences, concrete walls, deep trenches and tank patrol roads, is intended to stop Palestinians entering Israel to carry out attacks. However, the fence/wall is mostly being built on Palestinian land deep inside the West Bank, cutting off hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from essential services in nearby towns and villages and from their farming land

2

Wanna add that list of Palestinian bombings of civilian targets throughout Israel? Wanna add the list of all the property lost by Israelis and Jews in Arab countries? Wanna add the list of how many Jews were expelled from their homes by Arab governments? Wanna? Wanna? No? Why not?

3

People of Jewish faith and culture have been oppressed and denied their human rights by Arab governments. It’s a matter of fact.

It’s a logical fallacy to link that fact to the suffering of the Palestinian people though, just as it would be a logical fallacy to claim that the people of Iraq needed to end all acts of terrorism against U.S. forces by some Iraqis in order to earn the right to freedom and self-determination.

4

No the logical fallacy would be that Israel has no right to defend itself against people who have begun several wars with it whether occupied or not. It would be a logical fantasy to think that leaving Iraq and its people under Saddam alone was going to let us off the hook when it comes to our security interests. Back to you.

5

No the logical fallacy would be that Israel has no right to defend itself against people who have begun several wars with it whether occupied or not. It would be a logical fantasy to think that leaving Iraq and its people under Saddam alone was going to let us off the hook when it comes to our security interests. Back to you.[/quote]

Fred, as long as the suffering of the Palestinian people – particularly the children – is of no consequence to you or Senator Lieberman, no one will believe that the suffering of the Iraqi people under Saddam is anything more than a political expediency to either of you.

6

Nice try. Do you think that any Israeli strategist is fooled into surrending the security of the nation because of your calls to heed the plight of women and children? Who suffers most because of the Palestinian terrorism and gangsta authoritarianism of the Palestinian “leadership” if not women and children? Besides which I hate children so your appeals do nothing to sway me.

We did not nor did I suggest that I supported the invasion of Iraq primarily for humanitarian reasons. They are an added plus but not the major reason for the invasion by a long shot and you know that.

7

Nowhere does Sen. Lieberman say this.

The point is: is it true that Israel is the only real democracy in that part of the world? You claim that 3m people in Israel (out of a population of 7mn) have “no civil rights.” And therefore Israel is not a democracy. Given that there are a little over 5mn Jews in israel, you must believe that Israel is depriving some Jews of all their civil rights.

Or, you may be talking about the Arab population in Israel alone, which is about 1.5mn. But then, i think you would just be plain wrong.

Perhaps you mean the Arab population of the occupied territories? In that case, there are certainly severe restrictions on civil liberties, due to Israelis fear of the territories being used as a base for bomb attacks on Israeli civilians. Also, there is the self-government (albeit limited) of the Palestinian Authority in these areas. if there is a lack of civil rights, (like a (properly functioning democracy) they must take part of the blame.

The law governing Israeli territories allows for basic freedoms and there are a number of non-governmental organisations that can challenge the Government, and a separate judiciary and supreme court to interpret the law.

In the occupied territories, the law is derived from colonial sources, the palestinian authority, and the israeli military.

So, you exaggerated your case.

I think Lieberman’s broad-brush point is this: if only Israel’s arab neighbours could develop the same level of democratic system, independent judiciary, and, yes, respect for civil rights, then they would be better able to govern themselves, reduce radicalism and reduce tensions with Israel.

If the legal system was able to develop in the occupied territories in the same way as it has in Israel, many problems would be solved. Unfortunately, the PA, under Arafat, showed little inclination to do this.

8

Nowhere does Sen. Lieberman say this.

The point is: is it true that Israel is the only real democracy in that part of the world? You claim that 3m people in Israel (out of a population of 7mn) have “no civil rights.” And therefore Israel is not a democracy. Given that there are a little over 5mn Jews in israel, you must believe that Israel is depriving some Jews of all their civil rights.

Or, you may be talking about the Arab population in Israel alone, which is about 1.5mn. But then, I think you would just be plain wrong.

Perhaps you mean the Arab population of the occupied territories? In that case, there are certainly severe restrictions on civil liberties, due to Israelis fear of the territories being used as a base for bomb attacks on Israeli civilians. Also, there is the self-government (albeit limited) of the Palestinian Authority in these areas. if there is a lack of civil rights, (like a (properly functioning democracy) they must take part of the blame.

The law governing Israeli territories allows for basic freedoms and there are a number of non-governmental organisations that can challenge the Government, and a separate judiciary and supreme court to interpret the law.

In the occupied territories, the law is derived from colonial sources, the palestinian authority, and the israeli military.

So, you exaggerated your case.

I think Lieberman’s broad-brush point is this: if only Israel’s Arab neighbours could develop the same level of democratic system, independent judiciary, and, yes, respect for civil rights, then they would be better able to govern themselves, reduce radicalism and reduce tensions with Israel.

If the legal system was able to develop in the occupied territories in the same way as it has in Israel, many problems would be solved. Unfortunately, the PA, under Arafat, showed little inclination to do this.[/quote]

So the Palestinians are depriving themselves of their civil rights.

Interesting theory.

One week having to live under the conditions the average Palestinian family has to endure would cure you of your delusion that they’re anything more than inmates of an ever-shrinking Israeli-run prison camp.

9

People can only obtain civil rights from a legitimate government that is recognized as the authority to bestow those rights. As long as the Palistinians do not acknowledge Israel as the ligitimate government, they will not get the same rights as the Israeli citizens do, AND RIGHTLY SO!!!

10

I like that. If the three-million Palestinian people are willing to acknowledge the authority of the Israeli government over them as legitimate, they’ll get the same rights as Israeli citizens. Sounds fair to me.

Are you sure you mean what you’re saying?

11

What blindspot?

[quote=“Pesident Bush on 30 March 2002”]We are at this point because there has not been enough done to fight off terror. All the leaders in the world must stand up against terror, must do everything in their power to cut off the funding to terrorist organizations, to prevent terrorist organizations from finding safe haven

12

In spooks defense, I’m sure that his eyes are open.

President Bush has been very vocal, and on record numerous times, in his desire to see a “Palestinian” state created.

13

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]In spooks defense, I’m sure that his eyes are open.

President Bush has been very vocal, and on record numerous times, in his desire to see a “Palestinian” state created.[/quote]

So, you’re saying that spook is deaf?

14

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]In spooks defense, I’m sure that his eyes are open.

President Bush has been very vocal, and on record numerous times, in his desire to see a “Palestinian” state created.[/quote]

True. President Bush is clearly saying that. I have no beef with his stated position and appreciate the integrity of it.

If he actually tries to implement though he’ll run into tremendous opposition. Just ask how many others here actually support his position to get an idea of the opposition he’ll face.

15

[quote=“spook”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]In spooks defense, I’m sure that his eyes are open.

President Bush has been very vocal, and on record numerous times, in his desire to see a “Palestinian” state created.[/quote]

True. President Bush is clearly saying that. I have no beef with his stated position and appreciate the integrity of it.

If he actually tries to implement though he’ll run into tremendous opposition. Just ask how many others here actually support his position to get an idea of the opposition he’ll face.[/quote]

spook,

Why do you think there will be opposition to an independent Palestinian state that exists peacefully with Israel?

Who here opposes such a state and state (condition)?

16

[quote=“Tigerman”][quote=“spook”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]In spooks defense, I’m sure that his eyes are open.

President Bush has been very vocal, and on record numerous times, in his desire to see a “Palestinian” state created.[/quote]

True. President Bush is clearly saying that. I have no beef with his stated position and appreciate the integrity of it.

If he actually tries to implement though he’ll run into tremendous opposition. Just ask how many others here actually support his position to get an idea of the opposition he’ll face.[/quote]

spook,

Why do you think there will be opposition to an independent Palestinian state that exists peacefully with Israel?

Who here opposes such a state and state (condition)?[/quote]

Let’s find out. We might as well start at the top – or bottom, depending on your point of view – and ask Dr. Evil. :slight_smile:

How about it, Fred? Do you support the establishment any time soon of an independent Palestinian state beside Israel if it agrees to live in peace?

17

[quote=“spook”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]In spooks defense, I’m sure that his eyes are open.
President Bush has been very vocal, and on record numerous times, in his desire to see a “Palestinian” state created.[/quote]
True. President Bush is clearly saying that. I have no beef with his stated position and appreciate the integrity of it.
If he actually tries to implement though he’ll run into tremendous opposition. Just ask how many others here actually support his position to get an idea of the opposition he’ll face.[/quote]The “Palestinian” state is a reality. Its in its infancy and already is turning nto the nightmare many, including myself, predicted. A haven for terrs and sp corrupt as to hold little hope for those who live there and actually do have dreams of making this state a ‘normal’ country.
To attribute this situation to the actions of Israel is at once accurate - they must and do deal with a group hell-bent on the destruction of Israel - and diversive - diverting responsibility from where it rightfully rests; with the corrupt "Palestinian regieme and those in whose personal interest lay in promoting the status quo.
The “Blame Israel 1st” crowd is just as guilty here as the “Blame USA/GW Bush 1st” crowd. Continually taking a grain of sand and building their own mountains to shout from.

TMan - no, not deaf either, he hears.
Did I send you the “Argument Analysis” link?

18

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“spook”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]In spooks defense, I’m sure that his eyes are open.
President Bush has been very vocal, and on record numerous times, in his desire to see a “Palestinian” state created.[/quote]
True. President Bush is clearly saying that. I have no beef with his stated position and appreciate the integrity of it.
If he actually tries to implement though he’ll run into tremendous opposition. Just ask how many others here actually support his position to get an idea of the opposition he’ll face.[/quote]The “Palestinian” state is a reality. Its in its infancy and already is turning nto the nightmare many, including myself, predicted. A haven for terrs and sp corrupt as to hold little hope for those who live there and actually do have dreams of making this state a ‘normal’ country.
To attribute this situation to the actions of Israel is at once accurate - they must and do deal with a group hell-bent on the destruction of Israel - and diversive - diverting responsibility from where it rightfully rests; with the corrupt "Palestinian regieme and those in whose personal interest lay in promoting the status quo.
The “Blame Israel 1st” crowd is just as guilty here as the “Blame USA/GW Bush 1st” crowd. Continually taking a grain of sand and building their own mountains to shout from.

TMan - no, not deaf either, he hears.
Did I send you the “Argument Analysis” link?[/quote]

Tigerman, I think it’s safe to put Tainan Cowboy in the “no” category. :slight_smile:

Fred should be putting his two cents in on the issue any minute now.

19

[quote=“spook”]Tigerman, I think it’s safe to put Tainan Cowboy in the “no” category. :slight_smile:[/quote]spook -
A “Palestinian” state peacefully co-existing with Israel?
Of course I would like to see that. Why conjecture to the opposite?
This would be in the best interests of both entities and the worst of radical terrs and corrupt regiemes in the region. Lets ask Syria how they vote on this?

20

[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“spook”]Tigerman, I think it’s safe to put Tainan Cowboy in the “no” category. :slight_smile:[/quote]spook -
A “Palestinian” state peacefully co-existing with Israel?
Of course I would like to see that. Why conjecture to the opposite? . . .[/quote]

Maybe because of the quote marks you put around Palestinian. :slight_smile: