I agree with you it’s a product of brain-washing, but I think it goes deeper than just a linguistic level. I hold that anytime someone says they support the status quo, they’re putting a vote in the unification box. To take it to an extreme, I don’t think it would be a huge exaggeration to say that if you don’t support independence, you put your implicit support behind unification.
I do agree with that point of view. In fact the earlier Taiwan announce independence the better outcome it would have been. If the Chiang duo had any love for the Taiwanese people, and the future of Taiwan, they could have done so in the 50s, 60s, even 70s and CCP would applaud them for giving up their claim to China.
In the 80s and most of the 90s, China could mount very little affective attack against Taiwan if Taiwan declared independence. The longer Taiwan maintains status quo, the more Taiwan has to lose.
So I do share your view that maintaining status quo means eventual unification. Support… maybe not. But if maintaining freedom and liberty in Taiwan is the issue here, those who wish to maintain status quo aren’t helping.
I actually don’t think unification with China is a bad thing at all as long as that’s what Taiwanese people want. The problem here is that most people aren’t sure of what they want. They’ve been scared away from supporting unification by all the unfortunate truths of China today, and they’ve been scared away from independence by the overly zealous independ-nuts and the propaganda machine that tells them that’s a bad idea. Now people aren’t willing to think critically about the issue and would prefer to let it sort itself out by maintaining a fictional “status quo” (which is like putting a car in neutral, letting it slide downhill, and telling yourself that it’s not moving at all.). If people accept that a status quo means eventual reunification and continue to support it, I’m totally behind their 民意. But I still think there is a colossal disconnect between what people want and what people vote for.
[quote=“bigduke6”]Somehow in any military attack, I do not think China Gives an effing continental about Casualties.
In my former life I was in China on business once a month.
I used to deal with educated Chinese, and they believe Taiwan needs to be brought back into the fold at any cost. Granted they are all effectively brainwashed, but this is irrelevant.
If they lost 200 000 in an invasion, the cost would be worth it to them.They are extremely Nationalistic, and believe China is on its way to being the sole superpower.
Militarily they probably will, simply because they are willing to lose hundreds of thousands to any nationalistic cause.
The USA is not willing to face large casualties anymore.[/quote]
Next time you speak to those so called educated chinese. Ask them if they would sacrifice their OWN lives for the sake of taking over Taiwan. Their nationalist views over Taiwan is only a mood point. Most chinese people would never sacrifice their own personal lives at risk over Taiwan. If Taiwan were to develop the capability to destroy shanghai completely and therefore make it impossible to conquer Taiwan without sacrificing shanghai in the process, china would never do it. They love shanghai more than they hate Taiwan. At that point, the people of shanghai would change their views on Taiwan now that they know their own lives are at risk.
Ask any chinese how they would feel towards a democratic reform. Ask how they feel about human rights issues. They will tell you that all that stuff and freedom of press, and all that means nothing to them because in their own lives they have three meals per day, they can have whatever entertainment they want, they can have their families and their friends. That’s all chinese care about. A full rice bowl. They even say so themselves. The Taiwan issue does not effect their personal lives. Every single chinese person I knew, the circumstances in hismor her own personal life good or bad are not effected by the Taiwan issue.
chinese people feel the way they do about Taiwan only because the media tells them to. But I met chinese who have also said they don’t care if Taiwan is a Country or not. I met a Taiwanese in china who said he tried to put his son in a chinese school. They tried to charge him twice the amount that a chinese person would normally pay for school tuition. The reason? The principal said to my Taiwanese friend “You are a Foreigner”. My Taiwanese friend told me that quite a few chinese saw him as a foreigner.
Even moreinteresting is that since A-Jeou became president in 2008, Taiwan allowed more chinese tourists to go in. Many were able to go as solo tourists. After coming back to china, they changed their mind as to how they view Taiwan. Some chinese who visited Taiwan told my Taiwanese friend “Taiwan is a great Country. Much more cleaner and more disciplined than china”. So my Taiwanese friend was shocked to see that people within china actually had been willing to accept the idea of Taiwan being a Country.
When it comes to Taiwan or China, nobody cares what the public thinks. It is about the politics. Locals change their mind in no time. Just today, I was told by a Taiwanese gentleman that Taiwanese like to have American green card so that they can fly out if a conflict starts. What do you make of that? As you said, general public is only interested in being safe with three meals a day, other than that, they can talk but they don’t care about the political status of Taiwan. Certainly, they won’t sacrifice themselves if needed just to get Taiwan a status. If they could, they would have done it long back. Now it is impossible.
What’s funny is that if Japan somehow got so powerful (just for arguments sake) to the point where they could occupy china again, most chinese people wouldn’t fight. Their nationalist views are only a mood point. Take a look at the island dispute between china and Japan. So many chinese protested strongly against Japan. Destroying Japanese shops, you name it. But, if those same people had to sacrifice their own lives just to get those islands away from Japanese control, they would back down like the cowards that they are.
But in any case, if Taiwan wants to decrease the chances of a conflict and still maintain their self rule. All they need is a strategy to which they could put up a fierce fight at least long enough to give them time to destroy cities in china such as shanghai, nanjing, guangzhou, etc etc. as well as chinas nuclear factories. Yes Taiwan would lose. We all know that. But, all they need is a situation where even though Taiwan can’t Win. It is still impossible for china to do it without sacrificing some of their own major cities. The communist party would lose way more than what they would gain under these circumstances. Not only that but china know’s they don’t need Taiwan. They’re similar to a school bully and Taiwan is the victim. As soon as the victim puts up a fight and becomes more trouble than what they are worth, the bully usually backs down.
The fact Taiwan was always independent has never hurt the chinese people. The chinese nation and it’s people wouldn’t be any better off if Taiwan fell under beijing’s rule in 1949. Taiwan doesn’t even pose a threat to china at all. If you look at their military protocols, it’s designed to defend their own Country. Not to invade china and occupy them. If china feels Taiwan’s military advancements and purchase of arms from america are a threat to china, well guess what? It’s only in retaliation to the military build up china is building against Taiwan.
Just leave Taiwan alone and everything would be fine.
A lot of people, both green and blue, would disagree strongly with the notion that Taiwan has always been independent.
How long do you think Taiwan can remain in a political limbo? It exists because it has 23 countries that recognize Ma Ying-jeou as president of China. If those countries, as small as they are on the world stage, stop recognizing Taiwan, it has absolutely no room to maneouver in international affairs. Taiwan has little clout to stand up to US demands in trade, for one, because what’s Taipei going to do when it’s angry? Nothing, because it has no power to do so. You can’t really uphold a status quo that is constantly tilting between two extremes.
A lot of people, both green and blue, would disagree strongly with the notion that Taiwan has always been independent.
[/quote]Ever since the so called people’s rwpublic of china was founded in 1949, Taiwan had always been outside that jurisdiction. The current administration in beijing has never exercised rule over Taiwan and Taiwan has never paid a cent in taxes to Beijing. Will the Taiwanese people both green and blue disagree with that? Would they argue that Taiwan was once ruled by the communist party?
[quote=“Hokwongwei”]
How long do you think Taiwan can remain in a political limbo? It exists because it has 23 countries that recognize Ma Ying-jeou as president of China. If those countries, as small as they are on the world stage, stop recognizing Taiwan, it has absolutely no room to maneouver in international affairs. Taiwan has little clout to stand up to US demands in trade, for one, because what’s Taipei going to do when it’s angry? Nothing, because it has no power to do so. You can’t really uphold a status quo that is constantly tilting between two extremes.[/quote]They recognize A-jeou as president of the republic of china. Which is Taiwan’s official name. You mentioned Taiwan can’t do anything when they’re angry. Sure they can. They can build up arms and aim them at china. Same type of arms that are aimed at Taiwan. The chinese will then say:
china: why are you aiming missiles at our country?
Taiwan: because we want to be able to hurt you if you try to hurt us
china: well don’t you realise that our people don’t want you to launch missiles at our country and hurt our people?
Taiwan: yeah.
china: well then we’re gonna keep building missiles capable of hitting your country
Taiwan: you guys keep building up missiles aiming at our country anyway. 100 more keep getting added every year no matter how friendly A-jeou is towards you.
china: well… Uh…now your threatening us with your missiles and now our people are scared.
Taiwan: now you know how we feel.
Just one question. In response to when you said that Taiwan can’t do anything when they’re angry, meaning that they have no real power. Are you saying that surrendering to beijing is the best choice for Taiwan?
I don’t know about you, but every time the US ignores the Taiwan situation and refuses to strongly back Taiwan in the name of democracy and freedom, it makes America look hypocritical. The US claims that every other war they fight is in the name of FREEDOM. Selling Taiwan out to china is alot like selling South Korea out to the north. By the way. South Korea can’t do anything when they are angry either. The only thing that gives south korea any power at all is the fact america has their back. But their support for taiwan is too lukewarm. As a Taiwan supporter, I feel upset over that. When it comes to Taiwan, I believe freedom is their right. If they request every western and european country to put joint efforts together to pressure china to leave Taiwan alone, they should honor it. Hey. These countries claim to be democratic. This is what we should expect.
Another thing. china often lashed out at America for selling arms to Taiwan in the past, well America should respond by saying “it’s because you threaten them. You want us end our arms sale to Taiwan, you need to stop building up your military threats. Leave Taiwan alone and remove and destroy every missile you aim at Taiwan and THEN we will stop selling arms to Taiwan”.
My point is that America doesn’t put enough pressure on china to remove their threats. Even civil groups not long ago petitioned senator Kerry to pressure china to Renounce the use of force against Taiwan. And if only America would just do everything they can to directly pressure china to Renounce the use of force, as well as pressure other countries to do the same. Tat would make all the difference there.
Think about it like this for a minute. As long as America doesn’t do anything and offers only lukewarm support for Taiwan, this political limbo will last longer and longer. And the lower level us congressmen in the Taiwan Caucus will continue trying to address the whitehouse on that issue. And it’s something the President will have to keep hearing about over and over again. At least if DC takes immediate action now to put china’s pressure on Taiwan to an end, then the President doesn’t need to have congress on his back over and over again. And then he can focus more on importand issues unrelated to Taiwan. As long as the statis quo remains the way it is, china will always try to change it. America says they oppose attempts from any side to change it, yet when china does US is silent. If Taiwan tries, the US lashes out at Taiwan. Fair? I don’t think so.
This article is a bit dense but has a lot of good info on the entire issue.
http://www.ndu.edu/press/lib/pdf/china-perspectives/ChinaPerspectives-6.pdf
I have objection to every single line you mentioned but specially to this one. China knows very clearly that it needs Taiwan, not taiwanese people but taiwan as an island to keep itself safe by controlling the sea. Not even in dreams China would let Taiwan go. In my personal experience, Chinese people are very devoted to China. Will they go to fight against Japan, that only time can answer. Will Taiwanese go to fight against China if needed, that everyone can answer right away. Hating China is not an answer. Finding a common ground with China is the answer.
I have objection to every single line you mentioned but specially to this one. China knows very clearly that it needs Taiwan, not taiwanese people but taiwan as an island to keep itself safe by controlling the sea. Not even in dreams China would let Taiwan go. In my personal experience, Chinese people are very devoted to China. Will they go to fight against Japan, that only time can answer. Will Taiwanese go to fight against China if needed, that everyone can answer right away. Hating China is not an answer. Finding a common ground with China is the answer.[/quote]
Nonsense. The island disputes are only a smokescreen to keep their attention away from domestic issues. Every time an issue rises up in china, they need a smokescreen. Don’t take my word for it. I was told that by another chinese person. If they wanted those islands that badly, they would’ve taken them by military force a long time ago.
Are chinese very devoted to china? Is the Taiwan issue something chinese people would normally care about if the state run media did not indoctrinate them the way ot did? The experience my Taiwanese friend had in china suggests something very different. Just read my earlier post as to what my Taiwanese friend experienced. he met chinese who told him that after they visited Taiwan, now they understand why Taiwan wants to be independent. Most chinese would never sacrifice their lives over either issue. They say “fight to death”. Yeah. They want people in the military to do it. People they don’t know. The average chinese wouldn’t sacrifice their mother, father, spouse, son, or daughter for either cause. To the average chinese person with a new born baby. What matters more to them? Some islands they will never visit? Or their own newborn child?
So, you are saying that Chinese people whether from China or Taiwan, couldn’t care less about their motherland? If that is the issue than why bother who thinks what. Let the things be as they are.
They care about their motherland. They just don’t care about the things that don’t effect their lives unless the atate run media tells them to. And do all Taiwanese people say china is their motherland? Many Taiwanese think Taiwan is their motherland. Hey. Korea and vietnam as well as parts of china which are now parts of russia has a similar history with china too.
But I would like to ask you something. Do you support china’s claim over Taiwan? Do you think that Taiwan should be ruled by beijing?
The way I look at things, especially your motherland comment. The entire earth is our motherland. I think of the entire worlds people as one single human race. There is no african race, no chinese race, no White race, no Japanese race, we are all one human race. In any college entry exam or population census count that they do in america where they ask what race you are. That is one question that shouldn’t be asked. We are all human. Color doesn’t matter.
Also, just on a side note. You may think I am completely nuts for believing that Taiwan should be whatever the people want. And that they should be able to live without fear of china’s threats. I support Taiwan and I stand up for those that feel Taiwan is a country. Why? Because the Taiwanese are some of the friendliest people you will meet. If you support china’s claim over Taiwan, that’s up to you. And I will not try to change your mind. The only thing I can say is that if you currently live in Taiwan, get out.
I have no problem with you saying Taiwan’s future should be up to Taiwan’s people. That’s a very good stance and it makes sense.
But I think you don’t have a very good understanding of the China military apparatus. We’re not talking about your average Chinese-guy-in-the-street picking up arms to “liberate” Taiwan. We’re talking about their large, well-funded, and professional full-time soldiers following a command given by their superiors as they are required to do. Most American soldiers didn’t care particularly about the fate of Iraq and its people (do you suppose anyone in the States could even find Iraq on a map before the invasion?), but they did it because they are soldiers and soldiers do as they are told or face a court martial. China does not want to attack Taiwan, you are right. But if China decided to do so, the feelings of your average Zhang, Wang, and Lin would not have the slightest influence over the military. (Otherwise, we wouldn’t have had a Tiananmen Incident, right?)
[quote=“Alias1983”]
Many Taiwanese think Taiwan is their motherland. [/quote]
Really? Taiwanese literally despise dark skin. Didn’t you see the disappointment parents have if they get a dark skinned kid due to the original Taiwanese blood included somewhere along the line! Taiwanese know where they came from. You are right about the fact that they do not care what happens to Taiwan as long as they get their daily necessities met.
I am no one to say who should rule Taiwan. Beijing already controls/influences major decisions taken by Taiwanese government especially in relation to International Community. China’s claim over Taiwan, well, they got to do what they got to do to maintain the safety of their land.
Color and race are two different things. When it comes to race, Taiwanese have no opinion but when it comes to color, larger part of the population certainly doesn’t seem to like dark skin. Race does matter because it defines who you are, it controls your growth pattern, it shapes your mind.
I don’t think you are nuts. It is actually nice to hear someone from the land who supports Taiwan.
No doubt about the fact that Taiwanese are friendly but friendliest, I strongly doubt. Taiwanese are friendly only as long as you don’t end up in a conflict with them. Look around this website and you can find multiple examples ranging from road, shops, houses, work and what not.
Regarding your comment about leaving Taiwan because my opinion is different than yours! First of all, it doesn’t matter what you or I think. Second, if everyone who thinks that China has control over Taiwan needs to leave the island, more than half of locals will be out of here.
If Taiwan wish to live without fear than the they need to stop making claims and make peace with China. This disturbance has been going on for almost a century now, it is time to end it. No need to give up claim over the land, they need to figure out the conditions which are good for everyone.
On a side note: Taiwanese army is no match to China’s mighty military. It is better to talk to China to solve issues than try to threaten them.
[quote=“Forumosasale”]I am no one to say who should rule Taiwan. Beijing already controls/influences major decisions taken by Taiwanese government especially in relation to Internationional relations. [/quote]that’s because they are severely infiltrated. and Taiwan has a gun pointed at their head. And the rest of the democratic world just stood by and watched it happen. [quote=“Forumosasale”]China’s claim over Taiwan, well, they got to do what they got to do to maintain the safety of their land. [/quote]Nazi Germany’s claim over France, well, they had to do what they had to do to maintain the safety of their land. But hey. Back to china, their land doesn’t seem threatened in any way. Taiwan was always Independent from the prc and their land was always safe. The people of china are safe. (Actually the prc government has done way more harm than Taiwan ever could). Ad Taiwan is not a threat to china. Their military protocols and strategy are specifically designed to shield the Taiwanese nation.
[quote=“Forumosale”]Race does matter because it defines who you are, it controls your growth pattern, it shapes your mind.[/quote]yeah. The human race. Human is what we are. When I went to school as a kid, I was taught in the school system that we as humans are one people. In fact, to even think that a white person could possibly be different from a black person, or to think of africans or latinos as a separate race and white people as a separate race, it’s illegal. At least where I come from. If the chinese were one single race different from everyone else (which I do not think they are) how do you explain that the Taiwanese, Singaporeans, overseas chinese, all people of that skin color are not unified? How would you explain the civil war between ccp and kmt? How would you explain that the Taiwanese have a completely different mindset? You know I met the odd chinese person from time to time who told me him or herself that they actually do not like chinese people. And they think westerners are better. Personally I don’t think we are any better or any worse than they are. We are equal to them. And they are equal to us. IT’S ONLY THE SKIN COLOR THAT’S DIFFERENT.
[quote=“Forumosasale”]I don’t think you are nuts. It is actually nice to hear someone from the land who supports Taiwan.
No doubt about the fact that Taiwanese are friendly but friendliest, I strongly doubt. Taiwanese are friendly only as long as you don’t end up in a conflict with them. Look around this website and you can find multiple examples ranging from road, shops, houses, work and what not.[/quote]Correct me if I’m wrong. But, when a Taiwanese gets into a fight with another Taiwanese, it’s the same thing. Human conflict can be between anyone. If a Taiwanese thief tried to steal a foreigners i-pad and the foreigner puts up a fight to prevent the thief from stealing his ipad, it’s the same if it was a taiwanese thief trying to steal an ipad from another Taiwanese who then puts up a fight to try to protect his peraonal belongings.
[quote=“forumosasale”]Regarding your comment about leaving Taiwan because my opinion is different than yours! First of all, it doesn’t matter what you or I think. Second, if everyone who thinks that China has control over Taiwan needs to leave the island, more than half of locals will be out of here.
If Taiwan wish to live without fear than the they need to stop making claims and make peace with China. This disturbance has been going on for almost a century now, it is time to end it. No need to give up claim over the land, they need to figure out the conditions which are good for everyone.
On a side note: Taiwanese army is no match to China’s mighty military. It is better to talk to China to solve issues than try to threaten them.[/quote]yeah. And any negotiation will not be a fair one. Because of the fact Taiwan doesn’t have the military capabilities to win a conflict. But, the fact they don’t is mainly because since A-jeou took office in 2008, he reduced the military compulsary system from 2 years to 3 months. Alongside that, the US won’t sell weapons to Taiwan which they need. They only sell what they need to Taiwan to get congress to shut up. US sells stealth f-15 's to south korea yet they won’t sell Taiwan what they need to effectively defend themselves. A downgraded version of the f-35 combined with f-15 silent eagles with more advanced missile systems to protect their airforce bases, combat lasers similar to what they use in Israel (THEL) as well as EMP weapons. Yes I know china has EMP weapons as well, but EMP weapons are something Taiwan will need.
If the US would only agree to arms sales to Taiwan which they need to secure their territory at least long enough to give the American’s time to get there, that’s all they should need. The prc is just a bully. Once a bully victim becomes more trouble than what they are worth, the bully will often just walk away.
I had problems with someone twice my size and I challenged him to a fight. I knew I was gonna lose. But, I didn’t care. All I wanted was just to do even a little damage. If I could even hurt him a little bit, it was worth it. And I was planning on just fighting dirty. Guess what? The guy backed off.
Look at the 1996 missile tests during the 1996 election? American aircraft carriers came and china backed off immediately. Not only that but the Taiwanese thought “oh yeah? You just watch us vote for who we want”. Lee Teng Hui got more votes than what he normally would have.
lets just cleanse taiwan of all chinese elements once and for all. we can start by putting all china sympathisers on a slow sinking boat back to China. Give back taiwan to its true native sons and daughters, the aborigines.
I was about to get all fired up and start shouting… until I saw the last word. Well played.
:bravo:
Anyway, Alias, the US has a very good reason to be reluctant on arms sales. The chances of South Korean weapons falling in North Korean hands or of Israeli weapons falling into Iranian hands is near zero, but is it possible China might get its hands on whatever Taiwan owns? :discodance: Obama doesn’t want to give China a bunch of new F-16s, MUCH less a bunch of F-35s.
The shortening of compulsory service started and mostly happened under the Chen administration. The Ma administration is just continuing the trend in anticipation of a volunteer force.