I agree, she is making it public and thats good. But if one doesnt play the game, they get booted. She is still playing the game, she just happens to be starting her own thing and competing against the rule makers. Its still playing, just not by their standards. We all play it. If i didnt play the game, learn it, use it, and adjust it for my benefit id be gone a long time ago, like this girl. She’s making a stand and fighting. Good. But realize that many people are terrified to do this, and more often than not they have very legitimate cause for concern. So they have to play the game as they see it laid out. Thats all this shit is, a game. when you look at from a logical perspective, much of our laws and regulations are pretty much retarded and selfish in nature aimed at simply allowing self gain for whomever wrote said words.
I really hope she knows some locals with some weight. why? because the below quote is sadly very true.
still curious though. If someone is here on a work permit/visa, can they go in and open their own business? i know with JFRV it is easy as anything…well easy as a local anyway. i think one thing we tend to forget sometimes is that government here is so fucking crooked that even Taiwanese have to play these retarded games and its happened so long it is engrained in their psychology. the only difference is they dont have to muck around with immigration as they cant be kicked out, but they still have to deal with all the same BS we do minus that and for the light faces they dont have the racism. but even Taiwanese aboriginals being local get a lot of discrimination.
Taiwan is a very special and interesting machine, when it gets too depressing step back and just watch from 3rd persons point of view. Its all very fascinating, albeit aggravating. Sometimes i think i stay here half because of my sick fascination of how poorly things are run and how “successful” they think they are…then life goes on.
you have to think about yourself, as does this girl, and make the game work for you. this is universal and has been so since the dawn of time. is it not one of the defining attributes of most societies? I have yet to live/visit a place where this is not only relevant but the name of the game.
Immigration laws are inherently racist, it’s pure and simple. The purpose of immigration laws in all countries is to keep out those the country finds undesirable, so elaborate visa laws/regulations are made to make sure the people they don’t want in stays out. It has little to do with the country’s welfare, but more about preserving national harmony.
Tell that to every country with their restrictive and elaborate immigration laws. The aim is to segregate people, pure and simple. Morality, justice has nothing to do with it and nothing about immigration laws are just. When people die of starvation or exposure traveling to other countries because they couldn’t do it legally, immigration laws are about the most unjust laws in the world. And every country has them.
It’s difficult to go anywhere with that argument. Shit happens elsewhere so it’s OK to let it happen. People elsewhere behave badly so it’s OK to behave badly.
Fair enough, but Confucius would be so disappointed.
It’s difficult to go anywhere with that argument. Shit happens elsewhere so it’s OK to let it happen. People elsewhere behave badly so it’s OK to behave badly.
Fair enough, but Confucius would be so disappointed.[/quote]
What’s wrong with a restrictive immigration policy? Anyone coming to Taiwan knows the deal. If they come out of their own conscience they better not complain about something they should have known from the beginning: Taiwanese do not want foreign families to settle here.
What I am pointing out is you guys get all bravado over one white girl not being able to stay in Taiwan because of unfair immigration laws, when shit like this happens to a lot of people (myself included), who had to live in a country he/she barely knows and somehow make shit work. Yet no one says a thing about it and when someone like me mention something it gets dismissed as whining. So you want to tell Taiwan to change their laws because of this white girl but no one in America wants to change the law until Obama pretty much bypassed the normal checks and balances and put a moratorium on deportation of child immigrants. Too bad I got deported long before anyone ever heard of Obama. I’m not saying it’s ok to let any of this happen but clearly immigration laws are selfish in nature and they should all be repealed and people be allowed to CHOOSE where the hell they want to live and work, and not be made prisoners in their own country! We can already move money and materials around the world without restriction, why not do the same for people?
Honestly I can’t stand the way filippinos are treated but the universal thought here is that they are second class, so no one says a thing about them. It is absurd that we’re going around talking about justice but in every country, no matter how civilised certain people are regarded as second class or even less than human. In Taiwan it’s SE Asians, while in America it’s Mexicans, and in Europe it’s Gypsies (Roma/Sinti). Immigration laws are all born out of those hate, just as any immigration laws created throughout American history (like the Chinese Exclusion Act) are all designed to keep certain undesirables out.
[quote=“Taiwan Luthiers”] I’m not saying it’s ok to let any of this happen but clearly immigration laws are selfish in nature and they should all be repealed and people be allowed to CHOOSE where the hell they want to live and work, and not be made prisoners in their own country! We can already move money and materials around the world without restriction, why not do the same for people?
[/quote]
I agree. Why not start here? Make a change rather than accept shit, which seems to me to be what you have been supporting in this case. Other people have it worse so this woman should just accept it? Her parents should have made more informed decisions? Come on.
Make change here? It’s not like she doesn’t have a chance to stay in Taiwan. She doesn’t get a free APRC by virtue of having been here during her high school and university years. She can stay in Taiwan to study or work. What is so unfair about this? Migrant workers who get pregnant get kicked out immediately and I don’t see anyone on Forumosa saying “hey we should change things for them!”. She isn’t Taiwanese and does not meet the requirements for an APRC yet - the typical Forumosan would suck it up and work hard to fulfill the requirements. Her case is not about human rights but getting a free ride.
It’s difficult to go anywhere with that argument. Shit happens elsewhere so it’s OK to let it happen. People elsewhere behave badly so it’s OK to behave badly.
Fair enough, but Confucius would be so disappointed.[/quote]
What’s wrong with a restrictive immigration policy? Anyone coming to Taiwan knows the deal. If they come out of their own conscience they better not complain about something they should have known from the beginning: Taiwanese do not want foreign families to settle here.[/quote]
Nothing is wrong with a restrictive immigration policy IMO, although Taiwan Luthiers doesn’t seem to agree with you. S/he wants complete freedom of movement. I feel that some restrictions are required, although I don’t think they are as strict as the ones you want.
At what age do people coming to Taiwan “know the deal”? I think the woman in this thread was about 3 or so when she came. Also, do Taiwanese really not want foreign families to settle here? Shit! I thought they liked me
Make change here? It’s not like she doesn’t have a chance to stay in Taiwan. She doesn’t get a free APRC by virtue of having been here during her high school and university years. She can stay in Taiwan to study or work. What is so unfair about this? Migrant workers who get pregnant get kicked out immediately and I don’t see anyone on Forumosa saying “hey we should change things for them!”. She isn’t Taiwanese and does not meet the requirements for an APRC yet - the typical Forumosan would suck it up and work hard to fulfill the requirements. Her case is not about human rights but getting a free ride.[/quote]
Again, I don’t really know how to respond to this. This thread is about one woman. Start a thread about migrant workers who are pregnant if you want.
sorry to ruffle some feathers, but I really do support complete free movement. I just don’t think anyone should be made prisoners in their own country and if money and stuff could freely move, why can’t people? No one would cross the desert or swim in shark infested waters if they weren’t hampered by controls. The Berlin Wall showed that you can’t forcibly prevent people from moving, they will find creative ways to beat the system.
That said science is always being overlooked in these discussions. Taiwan is overcrowded no matter how you look at it, the last thing this rock need sis more people, at least the way things are being done. It must be up there in the worlds most unsustainable nations simply due to land mass:population ratio, then take into account we are as wasteful as any other here and we get a mess.
the debate between reality and human rights will never end, there cannot be a fair trade off between human desire and natural order, at least with our current mind sets. its like trying to stick the same end of 2 magnets together.
yes i realize it has nothing to do with taiwans policy, but it is a fact.
Another thing to keep in mind, despite how many problems there are here, think of how Taiwan came to be settled by the hans. from war from an even shittier and more racist bunch of D bags. then look at how fast things have happened here. I would say despite Taiwan being really low on the fairness scale, it would rate very high, in my opinion, on the rate in which it improves itself. That might be the brandy talking, possibly will regret saying that later.
The Berlin Wall was erected by the East German government to prevent East Germans from leaving. With a few exceptions countries no longer do that nowadays. The border between East and west Germany was not to stop immigration but to prevent people from leaving a communist shithole. West Germany immediately issued passports and ID cards to East German refugees. But then again this was one nation separated for reasons of ideology.
Immigration control is necessary among nations unequal in terms of economic development or cultural values. When values and economy more or less match some countries may agree to do away with restrictions, cf. the EU or Australia/New Zealand.
Unrestricted immigration from Mainland China to Hong Kong would turn HK into hell on earth within weeks. There is just too much disparity and while HK seems wealthy, it could simply not sustain such an immense influx of immigrants. The same applies to Taiwan.
Let’s say the situation were reversed. I’m a young Taiwanese university student in Germany, who initially went there as part of my parent’s work assignment. I stay there for most of my formative years. Upon graduating from college, would I naturally get resident rights by virtue of having been there for a long time? In addition I also don’t want to relinquish my republic of China citizenship, so I cannot simply apply for a German citizenship. What choice would I have other than being sent back to Taiwan?
I know that this is not only an issue in the EU, because you read about long time Mexican American resident being deported all the time in New York Times.
I don’t really see what legitimacy her complaints have. It’s not as if the authority is throwing her out with no recourse. Like every foreigner else in Taiwan (and in most of the world), she can either qualify for a work visa (and deal with work problems like everybody else), or relinquish her German citizenship and naturalize (which she doesn’t want to), or marry a citizen (which she’s against underatandably).
So it seems like she’s asking for privilege, for the authorities to give her a break from the law, for no extenuating circumstances. And as many people here have pointed out, she’s pretty much only getting this attention because she’s a pretty young white woman (so in fact she’s already more privileged than the migrant workers).
Now my question is, why should she get special treatment over others? There are ways she can stay here (getting a job or relinquishing her citizenship). Seems like she wants best of the both worlds.
[quote=“JillyPolla”]I don’t really see what legitimacy her complaints have.
…
Seems like she wants best of the both worlds.[/quote]
Though I think you’re being a little unsympathetic, I agree with your general points. The most unfair thing for this girl is that she didn’t get to choose her fate – her current limbo situation is a result of her parents’ lack of insight.
The other party lacking in insight here is immigration officials, who constantly clamor about brain drain and attracted skilled workers from abroad, but instead of relaxing regulations, as they should, they only restrict further: the two years of experience nonsense and only certain fields being open, etc.
I guess they’re only interested in single, young geniuses with enough money to relocate and unique expertise in their fields who don’t mind low salaries. All the recent-graduate Mark Zuckerburgs out there willing to work for under NT$100,000 a month. This country is destined to become the Philippines.
It’s difficult to go anywhere with that argument. Shit happens elsewhere so it’s OK to let it happen. People elsewhere behave badly so it’s OK to behave badly.
Fair enough, but Confucius would be so disappointed.[/quote]
What’s wrong with a restrictive immigration policy? Anyone coming to Taiwan knows the deal. If they come out of their own conscience they better not complain about something they should have known from the beginning: Taiwanese do not want foreign families to settle here.[/quote]
Yeah…eh no you are wrong. They let in millions of mainlanders (not by choice of the locals) and by choice have let in 100,000s of foreign spouses. So it’s not correct to say they don’t want immigrants, it which type of immigrants that they have a hard time figuring that they want. The government and society here is not some sort of cohesive monolithic entity. When the DPP were in power, Chinese spouses were a no-no. Now they get an easier deal than everybody else.
White collar immigrations has been made significantly easier over the last few years, and some ministers and ministries want to make it more like HK/Singapore, and other ministries and ministers oppose it. As for society at large, they seem to go along with what the government tells them in general.
Freedom of movement is great as an ideal, but it’s like Communism, it won’t work in reality, because there are too many poor people in the world.
For instance where I’m from there’s only 5 million people on the whole island (Ireland). In the last ten years we had so much immigration that something like 1/5 was foreign born, from almost no foreign born residents 20 years ago. The vast majority are from Europe, but a significant number came in from Africa and Asia illegally.
The country can easily absorb more people, but the problem is the local culture and people would be completely swamped by the newcomers. Because…there are simply too many people that would move there in a heart-beat if they could, especially from Africa and Asia and South America.
The reason the wealth gap is so big in the first place is because there are no freedom of movement. Companies can go to countries with low wages and start making people work on the cheap, and with freedom of movement they wouldn’t be able to do that. It would level income disparity between countries, and probably help everyone in the long run because it would open more ideas and not cause a country to become stagnant due to lack of creativity. Expats here wants Taiwan to be more open yet none of them would favor opening their own country up for more immigration. To me that seems unfair.
