Taiwan population decline

You like to cherrypick the poorest states in Europe out of 30 plus countries and then list instances of illegal employment?
I don’t know what you are trying to prove here.
Shoild we go find poor people in Kaohsiung or Taitung to then compare? Look for the situation of illegal workers in Taiwan?
Compare apples to apples yeah.

Sounded like a great list for “where to retire and make your pension go further”.

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I don’t think it’s cherry picking, outside the Scandinavian countries, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Netherlands those working conditions affect 10-30% of the population, working poor is the term for it. And there are strong forces in the politicians to keep it that way (the right block can count on the left block not understanding what immigration does - only a new left block like in Denmark would stop it. Because the right block talks against immigration but makes sure it continues), the main driver being illegal immigrants. And over the last years this has Imho been a primary driver to erode the middle class.

The dogma of we need (population) growth has to finally stop. We need to secure the living standards of the current population, and that is also or even easier by shrinking population.

I would say Taiwan is very comparable to the EU average here. Worse than Scandinavian countries, better than eastern or southern Europe.

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I have no idea what you are waffling on about now.

All I ever commented on was that there was no equivalence in the legal working conditions in Europe vs Taiwan. That is a fact.

In fact in some countries such as my homeland, asylum seekers (who haven’t been approved for refugee status) and Ukrainian refugees have much more freedom than your typical migrant worker in Taiwan.

Working conditions with salaries below 700 euro or below the minimum wages. Large industries would collapse without them .

So what are you talking about here? Illegal immigrants?
Yes there are illegal immigrants in Taiwan and in Europe. Beyond that…not sure your point.

Yes more freedom yes, but no to sense in life or finding a purpose in life. Ukrainian refugees have a special status anyhow by law right now, however most immigrants in Europe aren’t refugees but illegal immigrants from dirt poor countries.

Europe needs to stop illegal immigration, do like Canada or Australia with a point system, but no need for more children. Taiwan in so far is doing much better and due to never having had such an unqualified illegal influx probably can shrink population without even needing immigration of skilled labour. The model works pretty well here for it’s population. Taiwan should instead aim for reducing population down to 5-6M over time because without energy imports it cannot sustain more with good living standards.

Simply not true. Internal legal migration in the continent of Europe is massive.

2017 stats.
Citizens of European Union countries have the right to move between EU countries. As of 2015, nearly 20 million people, or about 4% of the EU’s birth population, lived in a European country in which they were not born.

EU countries with the highest number of migrants from other EU countries include Germany (5.3 million), the United Kingdom (2.9 million) and France (2.3 million). Meanwhile, EU countries with the highest number of migrants to other EU countries include Poland (3.5 million), Romania (3 million) and Germany (1.8 million).

I don’t count that as immigration. I mean extra EU and that over time has been even more massive. It’s at over 1% of population per year now.

Oh you don’t count that as immigration. How convenient.

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Debateable given the current culture whether such a small population could sustain an economy that keeps living standards high, not to mention the military aspect

As a 100 year plan, maybe?

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Even Taiwan’s population of 23 million makes it hard for Taiwan—with its current industrial structure—to function. That’s why Taiwan companies continue to set up factories in neighbouring countries such as China (less so now) and Vietnam, tapping labour markets that would effectively double our population to make it closer to South Korea’s.

Guy

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The resources are not growing, growing population means less resources per capita. This can only be offset by improving efficiency where in many areas we are hitting roadblocks.
As long as other countries have many children it’s much wiser to increase wealth by qualified immigrants and high quality education for the own population.
Low skilled immigrants, especially those that aren’t kicked out some years down the road decrease wealth in the long term.
So far we haven’t seen a single country really losing out due to too little children. Japan’s problems lie elsewhere.

A rate of 1.3-1.4 children per women seems best at increasing wealth. Once the world is down to a billion that way 2.2 should return…

is this population disaster a bad thing?

As we stand right now at 1% influx of illegal immigrants per year - that is much higher than “about 4% of the EU’s birth population, lived in a European country in which they were not born.” Many countries in the EU have well over 10% of extra EU foreigners living in the country - and usually after 6-15 years (mostly 7-8) people naturalize and aren’t counted as foreigner anymore. In the EU unlike the US the illegal immigrants usually can naturalize too (clean crime record/basic understading of the language and culture)

Even though of course this depends on the country, in places like Austria I assume over 15% are legal intra EU immigrants and another 25% second generation of at least one parent legal intra EU immigrants.
Even though now brittish people count as extra EU - I guess the 4% number is higher by now.

But yeah at least inside Schengen why should I consider that immigration? You don’t have to sign any papers, allowed to live / work in any country as long as you have the means for that, and so on. Single market baby so to speak. I also don’t speak of imports when I buy chocolate from Germany in Austria, The EU speaks of imports when products come from extra EU. So I just righfully apply the same to huamns inside EU.

Sounds like you’re talking about migrant workers. or at least foreigners. Assuming like here many are illegal runaways and working under the table, it is probably pointless to compare because thelat situation is always the same.globally. slavery essentially. Here they can just get dumped in the ocean.

If we are talking actual workers, do european ha e legal jobs that pay equivalent to 20k ish nt month and deduct food, housing etc? I would be shocked if there were, but I wouldnt expect it from say Norway, Germany etc.

Norway not, but Germany yes in slaughterhouses, farms or parcel delivery and so on - these get controlled often so they have some sort of papers (yes sometimes fake). Most are immigrants from eastern Europe but legally employed. Just cheated on hours and deductions… That’s the main reason why the conservative parties actually only on surface are against migration. They want those illegal turned legal after some years but still accepting whatever salary. Those people usually still get money paid by the state because salary is too little to live from. And they tend to produce many children so it’s quite normal in cities now that 1st graders by 50% don’t know German language. It’s a mess.

Taiwan has a brutally low birth rate, many crappy towns are half dead in the hinterland , a few streets of old concrete buildings and no investment, aged population, and they still won’t encourage LEGALLY EMPLOYED And EXPERIENCED South east asians that are actually already working there in factories to settle down in those towns and invest their money there. Give local schools and economies a boost.
Go to their 711s at lunchtime and evenings in these towns, invariably half the customers are South east asians hanging around cos got nowhere else to go. If they weren’t there would be unbelievably dead.

Really stupid.

Last I checked this was a thread on Taiwan not one guy’s pet topic on the EU.

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Fully agree with the Taiwan and Southeast Asian people part.

Give these folks a path to settle here and contribute!

Guy

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gake papers sounds illegal to me. thus not the legal system of payment etc. What are the laws?