Taiwan’s Identity: Time to Drop Mandarin?

Politics Taiwan Politics
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The genetic relationship between Filipinos and Taiwan’s Indigenous peoples reveals a shared ancestry rooted in the Austronesian expansion. Here’s a summary of the findings based on genetic studies:

Shared Genetic Heritage

  1. Austronesian Origins:

Both Filipinos and Indigenous Taiwanese (such as the Amis, Atayal, and Bunun) are part of the Austronesian-speaking populations.

They share common genetic markers associated with Austronesian migrations that began around 4,000–6,000 years ago.

  1. mtDNA and Y-Chromosome Evidence:

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA): Indicates a maternal lineage connection between Indigenous Taiwanese and Southeast Asians, including Filipinos.

Y-Chromosome Studies: Suggest a shared paternal ancestry, although some studies show genetic drift due to isolation of Taiwan’s Indigenous groups.

  1. Genetic Distinctions:

Over time, isolation and adaptation have led to distinct genetic traits in Taiwan’s Indigenous groups compared to Filipinos, who have a more diverse genetic pool due to later migrations and influences (e.g., Malay, Chinese, Spanish, and Negrito ancestry).

Key Differences

Filipinos:

Genetic diversity is higher due to continuous migrations and historical interactions with other populations in Southeast Asia, China, and the Pacific.

Some Filipino groups, like the Aeta and other Negrito peoples, show a deeper ancestry connected to pre-Austronesian populations.

Taiwan’s Indigenous Peoples:

Populations have remained more genetically homogenous due to geographic isolation in Taiwan’s highlands and plains.

They retain genetic markers more closely linked to the early Austronesian populations.

Conclusion

Genetically, both Filipinos and Taiwan’s Indigenous peoples are part of the larger Austronesian family, but historical migrations, geographic factors, and external influences have shaped their distinct genetic identities over thousands of years. Would you like to explore specific Indigenous groups or genetic markers further?

Better just adopt tagalog as national language. It makes sense

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Advocating for a shift to Tagalog as Taiwan’s national language is an unusual and provocative idea. Here are some potential arguments that could support such a proposal:

  1. Cultural and Regional Integration

Taiwan is geographically close to the Philippines, and embracing Tagalog could strengthen ties with a key Southeast Asian neighbor.

By adopting Tagalog, Taiwan could position itself as a bridge between East and Southeast Asia, fostering deeper regional cooperation.

  1. Economic Benefits

The Philippines is a growing economy with strong trade and labor links to Taiwan. A shared language could boost trade, tourism, and investment opportunities between the two nations.

Taiwan employs a significant number of Filipino workers, and adopting Tagalog could ease communication and improve social harmony.

  1. Demographic Considerations

There is a substantial Filipino population in Taiwan, primarily migrant workers. Recognizing Tagalog could validate their contributions to Taiwanese society and promote inclusivity.

Taiwan is facing demographic challenges with an aging population and declining birthrate. Embracing Tagalog might make Taiwan more appealing to skilled workers from the Philippines, helping address labor shortages.

  1. Globalization and Soft Power

Tagalog is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world, with millions of speakers across the globe. Adopting it could enhance Taiwan’s global influence and outreach.

By embracing a widely spoken language, Taiwan could signal its openness and adaptability on the global stage.

  1. Education and Skill Building

Learning Tagalog could prepare Taiwanese citizens for greater engagement with Southeast Asia, a region of growing geopolitical importance.

Bilingualism in Mandarin and Tagalog could give Taiwanese workers a unique competitive edge in the regional job market.

Challenges to Consider

Of course, such a dramatic shift would face significant resistance due to:

Taiwan’s strong cultural and linguistic ties to Mandarin and local dialects like Taiwanese Hokkien.

The logistical challenges of overhauling education, government, and social systems.

Questions about how such a change would align with Taiwan’s identity and international positioning.

While compelling arguments can be made, this proposal would require extensive public dialogue and consensus to gain traction.

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Somewhere we
Disconnected

Americans didn’t adopt French after independence from England in order to differentiate themselves

Using Taiwanese to differentiate Taiwan from China doesn’t in terms of language because it’s a common language used in China albeit with slight differences

You are advocating for the return to using hokkien instead of mandarin but many people in Taiwan don’t particularly care to speak hokkien and see no need

I myself prefer speaking mandarin and see no benefit to going back to speaking only Taiwanese

Why not just ditch mandarin in schools going forward and make English the official language

It’s going to set us apart from China more linguistically speaking

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Taigi is only just slgihtly different from Mandarin? Geat! I’m sure everyone’s onboard with ditching Mandarin for Taigi then.

How about we ditch Mandarin first for something SUPER simple like Taigi, then after a few decades we will ditch it for something harder to ease people in, like Pangcah? Aciyah!

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Did I say taigi is slightly different from mandarin? I meant taigi spoken in Taiwan is not too different from hokkien spoken in China

Mandarin is completely different and is not mutually intelligible with taigi

Written its using the same characters and thus is called a dialect

It’s entirely different other than written
A mandarin speaker would not be able to understand Taiwanese at all

All I’m saying is using taigi to differentiate Taiwanese people from China is kinda pointless on the basis of language alone is all I’m saying

I think the DPP likes to use that to differentiate itself from the KMT

But it is a language from China

I disagree that taigi is super simple
It is to native speakers but hardly simple to non speakers

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I will say that taigi was a dominant language before Japanese was forced upon Taiwan and then mandarin

So it makes sense in a way to move back to Taiwanese

But I don’t think this does Taiwan any good

Mandarin is a more useful language then taigi

If HK people go back to just using Cantonese it’s cool but it doesn’t help honkongers really

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Sounds familar… it worked in Singapore and to some extent in Hong Kong.

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Cantonese is probably more useful than Taiwanese/hokkien. Cantonese is still widely spoken in GZ and Macau (maybe not Shenzhen) and still widely spoken in diaspora communties in the west. Hong Kong’s university system is still mainly conducted in written English (at least the programs that count). And then there is the political dimension of the continued use of Cantonese for Hongkongers

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I quoted exactly what you said.

Anyway, if speaking Taigi or Mandarin has no effect on Taiwanese identity, then I wonder why CKS and the KMT spent 70 years oppressing people for speaking Taigi and Hakka.

I personally am for having any Austronesian language as the lingua franca of Taiwan, but all native languages should be taught in school as well as at home to ensure language and culture preservation.

Would that be distinct enough? Can we say bye bye to Mandarin then?

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I said taigi is similar to what’s spoken in China

I think you harbor personal hatred towards mandarin possibly because of personal hatred of CCK and the KMT

Which should not be a basis against the people using mandarin

I think
Myself I like mandarin more and no I don’t support the KMT nor do I the DPP

The tw govt considers me a tourist :smiley_cat:

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But if Taiwanese doesn’t sound good Cantonese is way worse

:smiley_cat:

Sorry to offend all the canto speakers

However if the girl is early twenties her Cantonese is probably going to sound good
Early 20s Taiwanese girls sound good in Taiwanese too

Heck probably early 20s girls sound good in just about any language

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Fiona Sit 薛凱琪 still sounds pretty good in cantonese… and she’s in her 40’s now.

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I am not against people using Mandarin, but it should not be the only language used for education, law, and the government in a country with a diverse native linguistic background.

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It would make a lot of sense for Taiwanese to be the language of instruction in places with a majority of primary language users. Hakka could be the language of instruction in designated Hakka areas. This would be challenging for indigenous ares due to lack of qualified teachers but exemptions could be granted.

Almost everyone would still be able to speak Mandarin and it doesn’t matter for literacy in formal Chinese.

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I actually like the sound of Cantonese. I think I might be the only one who think this way! Not too fond of the sound of Taiwanese. Mandarin used to sound good to me, but I’m too familiar with it now, and so am neutral about how it sounds.

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Think the govt has been talking about making English a second language
Maybe that will come to pass

There is no need to replace mando with Taiwanese just because

You feel it will make a better main language

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It’s just an idea. There would be very little support and a ton of opposition.

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familiarity breeds contempt they say.

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There’s no contempt at all. It’s just a means of communication to me now, like Korean (though I love the sound of southern Korean like Busan dialect).

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suppose its time for me to bore you with another tommy story: (let the yawning begin, i am yawning already…)

language is personal and the love or not of a language depends largely on one’s own experiences with it. now i am not going to use AI with this so i may not capitalize letters as I should or punctuate properly or what not.

Taiwan as you know was settled many hundreds of years ago by mainly two language speakers from CHINA (yes THAT CHINA) . Most of the chinese invaders spoke Hokkien and a lot spoke Hakka. So those were the two dominant CHINESE settlers in TAiwan.

Japan got into the mix and displaced the use of TAiwanese with Japanese. Somehow the Japanese were not hated and were responsible for the railroad and a whole bunch of other stuff in TAiwan. The Taiwanese who went to school and learned Japanese are largely dead by now. Including tommys grandparents on his moms side.

Later after WW2 the KMT (mando speakers those folks were) were shipped to Taiwan largely thanks to Uncle Sam who wanted to help a WW2 ally escape from Commie CHINA. Along with about 2 million MANDO SPEAKING soldiers and govt employees and what not.

Japanese was converted to Mando in TAiwan schools. Hence people who went to school after WW2 learned Mandarin as is still the case today.

The KMT army and govt were not especially liked by the Taiwanese. NO actually they were largely HATED. These “barbarians” were often referred to as “waisen (outside province) monkeys” by the Taiwanese. 228 further cemented Taiwanese hatred for mainlanders and Funny Taiwanese are still at odds with mainlander chinese to this day.

Tommys family had been in Taiwan hundreds of years and had long since lost any contact with any relatives back in CHINA. They had been many generations already in Taiwan.

Grandpa came from a Hakka farming family somewhere in todays Chungli and they scrapped together enough money for him and his younger bro to attend a very prestigious univ in Tokyo. Waseda Univ.
There Grandpa became a doctor and his younger bro a Pharmacist. He also met this young lady from Taiwan who "reportedly’ came from a Taiwanese “black society” family. YOu know what "black society " is no? Well look that up yourself.

Perhaps a reason why Grandpa was very humble while his wife was a “queen” expecting to be treated basically royally> :slight_smile: My mom inherited those traits. She ruled the household like a queen (with a dragonian hand).

Anyhows mommie grew up in malaysia to a family that spoke Taiwanese and Japanese at home (no mando none).

Tommy grew up in a part of Town that is very taiwanese, an old part of Taipei and never learned to speak a single word of mandarin. Until we moved to tunhwa/chongshiao in the early 70s. When Chonghsiao had just been made.
tommys friends were all from the “taiwanese” camp. Nobody was from the mandarin speaking camp as it were. Except for my moms sister who married a “god forbid” soldier from the KMT and moved far away to “tienmou”. So we rarely saw her and her husband and my two cousins. THEY spoke mandarin at home and rarely spoke Taiwanese, not actually being fluent in that language even.

Anyhows. tommy moved to a (gasp) community with a lot of mandarin speaking people. Good lord. Living in the camp of “outside region” monkeys !!!

Still tommy spoke not a word of this mandarin. NOT ONE WORD. And spoke to “other Taiwanese” in Taiwanese of course, hardly anyone speaking any of this weird language called English back then.

And tommy got a GF who was from a TAiwanese/Japanese family. And you would think mommy would like her for sure?/ NOPE they kinda hated each other. I think i know why but thats another story. Tommy got another GF who is half Taiwanes and half “outside region” monkey. OH Lord. Well mommy hated her too. I think mommy hated all my girlfriends because well you know moms never think their sons GFs are any good. She did like the one i married though. Probably because she was much like mommy, very pretty, likes to make up and dress up and has a temper to rival mommys.

anyhow back to language. tommy had a gf who spoke only a few words of taiwanese and only a few words of english so what to do? Communicating in halting taiwanese and halting english and hand signals had its moments. I taught her english and she taught me mandarin. Perhaps my current love of mandarin stems from that experience in the early days?

I also watched a lot of TV news in mandarin which helped me to learn. Eventually i came to be pretty fluent after ten years.

Mandarin i found out really fucked up my english and also somewhat my taiwanese. IN the sense that i started speaking less and less of both with my gf. I became mainly speaking mandarin although my brain worked in english. That was the operating system of tommys brain. So everything had to be converted when i heard chinese into english in the brain and then translated for my mouth to speak mandarin.

Today my operating system remains english. My first language was taiwanese but i was growing up then and i dont think i actually used much of my brain for anything (still dont).

so ok i lost my train of thought here …to be continued…