Did you folks ever notice how the “Taiwanese” flag used by many in the green camp doesn’t include Kinmen and Matsu?
Obviously Kinmen has always been Chinese and not been part of Japanese Taiwan, thus calling the people from there “Taiwanese” is incorrect. Yet surrendering the citizens of Kinmen and Matsu (together about 90,000) to the PRC in case of Taiwanese independence seems cruel. :fume:
Jinmen and Mazu have always been Chinese territory.
Taiwan (“Formosa and the Pescadores”) was ceded to Japan in the 1895 Treaty, and then in the April 28, 1952 Treaty Japan renounced all right, title, and claim to Taiwan.
In summary, the legal standing of Taiwan is different from that of Jinmen/Mazu.
Not at all. The people of Kinmen and Mazu are more pro-unification than the most pan-blue people on Taiwan. So not only would they not have problems going to China, it’s no suprise the greenies don’t want them.
I agree, it would be cruel to return anyone to PRC rule without their consent. Would you agree to a plebiscite under which negotiations be held to return the islands to their rightful owner, China? Say every five years, like Puerto Rico? That way the return negotiations would be properly supported by public consent. I suspect a plebiscite would be welcomed by the locals and would be useful propaganda against the PRC when Beijing objects and the locals vote to remain part of the ROC.
Maybe I’m just stupid(or maybe you are), but it seems from reading you blog that the only evidence of your claims that the DPP will hand over Jinmen and Matzu is based upon a flag. Is that correct?
Not at all. The people of Kinmen (Jinmen) and Mazu are more pro-unification than the most pan-blue people on Taiwan. So not only would they not have problems going to China, it’s no suprise the greenies don’t want them.[/quote]
Pan-blue does not mean surrendering yourself to the PRC! KMT supporters usually want a unification only under the Republic of China, and not the Beijing regime. Are the people of Kinmen not R.O.C. citizens just like the Taiwan people? Dissolving the Republic of China and establishing a new state on Taiwan proper deprives the people of Kinmen - we are talking about 90,000 human beings - of their citizenship and a choice between being a part of the PRC and freedom. I hardly doubt in case of Taiwanese independence, Kinmen can have a republic of their own.
the flag
the electoral record. Never has the DPP let candidates run in local elections in Fujian Province, R.O.C.
No, wrong. That’s back when the KMT talked about invading China to “recover the mainland”. Almost no one hold that view now. Right now when people talk about unification, it’s with the PRC.
Other than a few delusional pan-green nutters in Taiwan, everyone knows that Taiwan independence simply is not going to happen. There’s no market for it, no one outside of Taiwan is going to support it. The reality and the trend are both moving Taiwan toward unification. So what you should be asking is what will become of Kinmen and Mazu after Taiwan is reunified with China (likely under some sort of Hong Kong-like arrangement). I suspect when unification is complete, Kinmen and Mazu won’t be covered by the arrangement for Taiwan and instead they’ll both return to being part of Fujian province on the mainland. That’s what Kinmen and Mazu should have been all along, they were never ceded to anyone.
Nonsense. If you said (almost) nobody in Jinmen/Mazu votes for the DPP, you’d be spot on. Candidates who stand for the party are likely to lose their deposit. But a quick Google shows that the DPP fielded candidates in the most recent Legislative Yuan elections in both counties - a Tang Hui-pei in Jinmen and Cao Cheng-di in Mazu. Both candidates polled under 3% of the vote.
Nonsense. If you said (almost) nobody in Jinmen/Mazu votes for the DPP, you’d be spot on. Candidates who stand for the party are likely to lose their deposit. But a quick Google shows that the DPP fielded candidates in the most recent Legislative Yuan elections in both counties - a Tang Hui-pei in Jinmen and Cao Cheng-di in Mazu. Both candidates polled under 3% of the vote.[/quote]
You’re right, it’s only been in 2008 though. My source only included electoral records until 2004.
But what will happen with the people of Kinmen when Tsai Ing-wen proclaims the Taiwanese Republic? What if they neither want to be citizens of the new republic, nor be a part of the PRC? What if they simply want things to stay what they are?
Here’s an interesting China Post article:
[i]“As one interviewee pointed out: “I don’t identify with the word ‘Taiwan.’ The ‘Republic of China’ has more meaning for us, because I think Taiwan is included in the ROC.”
“Said one Kinmen interviewee, “We had been ruled under martial law. We made sacrifices because of the war. Our government doesn’t pay attention to us.””
“When the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) came to power in 2000, many Kinmenese opposed Taiwan’s independence for fear that Kinmen would someday be cut off from it.”[/i]
Nonsense. If you said (almost) nobody in Jinmen/Mazu votes for the DPP, you’d be spot on. Candidates who stand for the party are likely to lose their deposit. But a quick Google shows that the DPP fielded candidates in the most recent Legislative Yuan elections in both counties - a Tang Hui-pei in Jinmen and Cao Cheng-di in Mazu. Both candidates polled under 3% of the vote.[/quote]
You’re right, it’s only been in 2008 though. My source only included electoral records until 2004.[/quote]
Nice research skills. Of course even before 2004 you could have noticed that under a DPP government Taiwan entered the WTO as the The Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu and that DPP policy papers include Kinmen as part of Taiwan’s territory.
Nonsense. If you said (almost) nobody in Jinmen/Mazu votes for the DPP, you’d be spot on. Candidates who stand for the party are likely to lose their deposit. But a quick Google shows that the DPP fielded candidates in the most recent Legislative Yuan elections in both counties - a Tang Hui-pei in Jinmen and Cao Cheng-di in Mazu. Both candidates polled under 3% of the vote.[/quote]
You’re right, it’s only been in 2008 though. My source only included electoral records until 2004.[/quote]
Nice research skills. Of course even before 2004 you could have noticed that under a DPP government Taiwan entered the WTO as the The Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen (Jinmen) and Mazu and that DPP policy papers include Kinmen (Jinmen) as part of Taiwan’s territory. [/quote]
“Taiwan” did not enter the WTO, the Republic of China did under a cameo name.
The DPP in their official papers never disputes the territory the R.O.C. holds at the moment. Chen Shui-bian’s 4-stages theory defines the R.O.C as Taiwan only though. All I can hear the green crowd yell is “Taiwan Taiwan Taiwan” - and they use the denonym “Taiwanese”, yet people from Kinmen are not Taiwanese !
Yes, it did according to governments and media outlets around the world. Please stop making up your own definitions and facts. No one ever refered to taiwan’s joining the WTO as the ROC entering under a cameo name.
Maybe you should change the name of your blog to FreeTaiwanKinmenandMatsu.
Kinmen and Matsu are part of the anachronistic ROC, not part of Taiwan. When or if Taiwan becomes independent, they can continue to fly the ROC flag if they want.
The irony of having Kinmen and Matsu in the ROC is that it doesn’t seem to have had much useful effect on ROC maritime boundaries. Surely most of the Taiwan Strait should be in ROC hands if they were properly accounted for, not that China has much regard for the law of the sea or most other international conventions.
If Cai Ying-Wen does something as stupid as proclaiming Taiwan independence, Kinmen and Mazu will ask, nope, demand to join the PRC. They’re already pro-unification as it is, and they’re not going to want to be part of a new republic that’s in no way viable and will probably get smacked down by China.
If Tsai Ying-Wen, who’s not particularly stupid, by the way, proclaims independence for Taiwan, you can bet she’d be real quick in pointing out that Kinmen and Mazu are not welcome, and they can go back to nestle in the armpit of China quicksmart. Wouldn’t want all those ungrateful cadres messing up the joint, now would we?
… and was that a threat I detected? A smack down? Lordy!
Apparently some of you did not read the quotes from the China Post article:
[i]“As one interviewee pointed out: “I don’t identify with the word ‘Taiwan.’ The ‘Republic of China’ has more meaning for us, because I think Taiwan is included in the ROC.”
“Said one Kinmen (Jinmen) interviewee, “We had been ruled under martial law. We made sacrifices because of the war. Our government doesn’t pay attention to us.””
“When the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) came to power in 2000, many Kinmenese opposed Taiwan’s independence for fear that Kinmen (Jinmen) would someday be cut off from it.”[/i]
I guess this makes it clear the people of Kinmen DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF THE PRC ! They feel [color=#0000BF]CHINESE[/color], which doesn’t mean they want to be citizens of the [color=#FF0000]PRC[/color]!
Of course Cai will first have to get elected president to have the chance to do something that stupid. The people of Taiwan know better. There’s nothing to gain and plenty to lose by electing a nut to office.
What? You didn’t know Taiwan is going to get smacked down if it declares independence. But given that the rest of the world is against TI too, I think China might not even have to do it themselves.
Of course Cai will first have to get elected president to have the chance to do something that stupid. The people of Taiwan know better. There’s nothing to gain and plenty to lose by electing a nut to office.
What? You didn’t know Taiwan is going to get smacked down if it declares independence. But given that the rest of the world is against TI too, I think China might not even have to do it themselves.[/quote]
