Taiwanese Politics & Uncertainty - Bad time to move there?

[cctang]

@thyrdrail

i never said i “understand” the NEED to treat simplified chinese users as spies. i was merely inferring that i can understand why some Taiwanese would be so PARANOID - which i have used a few times now - as to suspect people who use simplified chinese as being spies for china. when you’re constantly living in a tense situation and environment like taiwan where you’re constantly under threat on a daily basis from a big evil enemy just across the strait, it can understandably make a few people PARANOID.

Presumably you are equally capable of understanding the PARANOIA of the leadership of the Communist Party of China, which faces a foreign alliance with which China has fought 3-4 wars over the past 50 years (and tens of wars over the past 150 years)… a foreign alliance that shows a willingness to adopt coerced “regime change” through military, economic, and political means whenever their dominance is threatened, at any cost.

Anyways, I don’t wanna play that rhetorical game. Let’s just call your opinion what it really is: overwhelming intellectual dishonesty justified by your sympathies for the small segment of the Taiwanese population that hates everything there is to hate about the “evil empire”.

[quote]thank you!! hence, my original comment: “poor farmers who speak out against corruption, journalists who write about china’s internal affairs, townspeople who complain about their drinking water being polluted by foreign and domestic factories, poor chinese who complained about being forced to live in colonies cuz they got AIDS from selling their blood to unsanitary blood banks, of course the attorneys who defend all those people, and the list goes on and on and on.” basically, anyone who speaks out or even about the chinese government CAN BE LABELED AS A SPY - even for Taiwan.
[/quote]
Where / how / what / when can you name examples of the above? Anyone can be labeled as a spy? Really? Can you find for me the Philip Pan articles that backs up your absurd statement? The Washington Post has reported that if I walk down the street, and I talk about the Chinese government, I can potentially be labeled a spy for Taiwan? You won’t find the above from any respectable news sources, of course, because it simply isn’t true. The Chinese legal system is what it is, not the ridiculous totalitarian caricature that you’re claiming it to be.

Have you ever been to mainland China? Do you know anyone from mainland China, or at a minimum, has spent a respectable amount of time there? Do you ever read any mainland Chinese news sources?

Didn’t I just promise myself I wouldn’t get in this debate with an uninformed internet warrior? I did. I really shouldn’t be wasting my time with this.

south china morning post??? HAHAAAAAAA. there goes your credibility. i had my suspicions.

Credibility is built on the basis of many statements over a long period of time. Feel free to have whatever suspicions of me you’d like; fortunately, I’ve been on this site for a while, and agree with me or not, I like to think I stand on pretty solid ground with most

You, on the other hand, are coming across as the under-informed, over-opinionated recent graduate (?) you clearly are.

[Quentin]

She’s a heartland girl from Arkansas, 4000 miles away from mainland China, which she has (presumably) never seen. Just because you have a little bit of ethnic Chinese ancestry doesn’t make you an expert on modern China. Racially people like her may be “Chinese”, but culturally and socially they are Midwestern Americans. It’s a credit to America that they can be Americans. No matter how hard a whitey like me can try, I can never, ever even come close to becoming “Chinese” and never can any of my children. This is one advantage our country has over yours.

[cctang]

Now you made me go and look at her some of her older posts.

thyrdrail, for someone who bravely (and in my opinion, justifiably) stood up to defend Taiwan against expats that had jumped to cynical, awful conclusions… why’re you in such a hurry to make the same mistake when it comes to mainland China?

Mainland China is as deserving of a fair, balanced, contexualized, and IMO sympathetic understanding as Taiwan.

[thyrdrail]

[quote=“cctang”]

Didn’t I just promise myself I wouldn’t get in this debate with an uninformed internet warrior? I did. I really shouldn’t be wasting my time with this.[/quote]

so dont.

You, on the other hand, are coming across as the under-informed, over-opinionated recent graduate (?) you clearly are.

and i suppose all your previous posts weren’t your own over-opinionated comments? tell me, what exactly do YOU do in your profession that makes you such an unbiased, legit expert on the issue?

[thyrdrail]

[quote=“cctang”]
But that said, lemme be the first to say I agree with you: we should avoid conflict over Taiwan (not to mention a thousand other potential issues). Just put down your gun, step away from the island, and everything will work out just fine. [/quote]

how about you tell the chinese govt. to disassemble her 900 missiles she’s currently pointing at taiwan, back off from the island, and everything will work out just fine.

[ac_dropout]

Why don’t we just drop the pretense? This is the American vs. the Chinese Empire

Because as a Chinese American why would I beat myself up?

My worldview is in synch with me.
I can no more deny that I am a BSR/WSR mix, no more than I can deny that I am Chinese American.

It is possible to for ROC, PRC and USA to find a no confrontational political position for the mere simple reason that I exist. In fact, my existence only strengthens my resolve that cooperation and synergies can exist between these States.

No matter how hard a whitey like me can try, I can never, ever even come close to becoming “Chinese” and never can any of my children. This is one advantage our country has over yours.

I propose a counter argument. If you go through Sinification, like I have gone through Americanization, you can be accepted as Chinese. Just like I can be accepted as an American. A minority but accepted.

I also argue that the Chinese don’t have a “one drop rule” to be Han. So a few generations down the road if your progeny mate with other Chinese. Chinese Nationalist will accept them fully as Han if that’s what they want to be identified as. However, White Nationalist in the USA abide strictly by the “one drop rule,” if an individual is discovered be not 100% White they are no longer considered White.

All cultures have their strengths and weaknesses.

PS- The classical Chinese programs are a little better in the PRC.

[Quentin]

The difference is that about .00001% of people in America are white nationalists, while 99% of the people in Taiwan and mainland China are Chinese nationalists. Only racial fanatics care that you are Chinese-American in America. 99.9% of us don’t give a shit whether you’re Martian or Zimbabwean.

[thyrdrail]

Why I Was Fired in Hong Kong

Washington Post
Jasper Becker, former Beijing bureau chief of the South China Morning Post
May 04, 2002

After the handover of Hong Kong to China in 1997, one of the toughest challenges facing the Chinese Communist Party was to gain control over the freewheeling media there. For more than a century, Hong Kong had been a refuge for dissenting voices in the Chinese world and the prime marketplace for trading rumors and leaks.
The Chinese-language press was the first target, and the process of subduing its boisterous members began even before 1997. Critical voices were targeted, often in creative ways. Some were flattered and won over, others bribed or threatened. Some journalists were fed stories to bring them into a collaborative and dependent relationship. Others were helped with favors; in one case Chinese officials paid the debts of a reporter’s mistress.

With the South China Morning Post, the problem was more difficult. It is in English and therefore widely read in the rest of the world so it serves as a barometer of Hong Kong’s freedoms, which are supposed to be preserved for 50 years under the “one country, two systems” mantra.

Thus the process of bringing it around to take a pro-Beijing stance is being carried out in a step-by-step way to avoid creating alarm. First, it was acquired by a Chinese tycoon, Robert Kuok, who has big investments in China.

Then the independent-minded editor, Jonathan Fenby, was replaced, followed by the features editor, Charles Anderson, and then Willy Lam, the China editor and prominent China-watcher, who was replaced by an editor trained at the mainland’s China Daily. Other dismissals followed.

Next on the list were the paper’s news bureaus on the mainland. Here, the key event was to transfer them from the supervision of the foreign ministry to the Hong Kong and Macao Affairs Office, which is responsible to the central government for supervising Hong Kong’s affairs. This office said that the paper was not to have westerners reporting on China – only ethnic Chinese. Chinese originally from Hong Kong or the mainland are generally easier to intimidate, whatever passports they hold.

At first the paper was told the existing six correspondents could not be accredited at all. Then authorities said we could be accredited provisionally. But the paper began to take steps to make life more uncomfortable for us, including withholding money to run the bureau and curtailing normal reporting trips. Even a rare invitation to visit Tibet was blocked by the editor, Thomas Abraham, on the grounds that he could see no news value in it.

On the editorial side, reporters began almost instinctively to avoid reporting on the activities of those opposing the central government. Direct reporting on Tibet, Falun Gong or worker unrest was left more and more to the news agencies. Copy was edited to make it more and more bland. Anything personal about China’s leaders was taken out.

Such things as a description of Jiang Zemin’s unimpressive performance at a joint press conference with President Bush earlier this year, or the impression made by Premier Zhu Rongji at his press conference closing the annual National People’s Congress, were edited out.

The China editor urged us to attend more official briefings and stick closely to what officials said. Stories that made the front pages elsewhere, such as Falun Gong’s brief takeover of the cable television network of Changchun in March, were buried in our paper. The preference was always to highlight the official reaction to such bad news rather than to investigate it.

The process was by no means complete, however, and many resisted it; I still managed to get my views printed on the editorial pages. But the next stage became obvious when the China editor began to try exerting his control over the rest of the paper.

When I went to express my concerns to the editor, and my fears that the change was becoming all too obvious to readers, I was quickly sacked for “insubordination” and refusing to buckle under to the China editor.

The remolding of the South China Morning Post mirrors what is happening throughout Hong Kong. Chief Executive Tung Cheehwa has started his second term in office apparently determined to give further proof of his loyalty to Beijing. He is tightening his control over the civil service and taking other steps to lessen Hong Kong’s autonomy.

For the press, a new anti-subversion law is soon to be passed. It will allow for broad interpretations of what constitute acts endangering state security, and could include news reporting that supports Tibetan or Taiwan independence, or is critical of Beijing’s handling of the Falun Gong movement.

The vision of “one country, two systems” becomes ever dimmer.

The writer is former Beijing bureau chief of the South China Morning Post.

© 2002 The Washington Post Company

[thyrdrail]

@Quentin

The difference is that about .00001% of people in America are white nationalists, while 99% of the people in Taiwan and mainland China are Chinese nationalists. Only racial fanatics care that you are Chinese-American in America. 99.9% of us don’t give a shit whether you’re Martian or Zimbabwean.

umm…that 99.9% figure seems rather high, imo.

[cctang]

@Quentin

The difference is that about .00001% of people in America are white nationalists, while 99% of the people in Taiwan and mainland China are Chinese nationalists. Only racial fanatics care that you are Chinese-American in America. 99.9% of us don’t give a shit whether you’re Martian or Zimbabwean.

Well, I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. What % of the United States federal government is not Anglo-Saxon, male, and Protestant? The American electorate + political system apparently does care.

But that said, I don’t think you can draw a parallel between “white nationalists” and “Chinese nationalists”. White nationalists are looking to exaggerate differences between white and non-white American citizens. In pursuit of this, they go to such extremes as to argue for racial/cultural purity.

Chinese nationalists haven’t done that because, quite simply, we haven’t had to. There are still relatively few non-Chinese in China. And to the ones that are there, I say, feel free to marry my fellow Chinese. I’m not at all threatened when that happens.

EDIT: Actually, I thought about it, and now I realize what the problem is. Chinese nationalists and white nationalist are very much an apple/orange comparison. Chinese nationalists are actually analogous to American nationalists.

[ac_dropout]

@Quentin

The difference is that about .00001% of people in America are white nationalists, while 99% of the people in Taiwan and mainland China are Chinese nationalists. Only racial fanatics care that you are Chinese-American in America. 99.9% of us don’t give a shit whether you’re Martian or Zimbabwean.

Then I must be very unlucky not being from Mars or Zimbabway when I’m in America. I think most people are pretty cool. But I’m sure it is not 99.9% of White Americans that don’t feel threatened about being displaced and don’t blame a “foreigner” every now and then.

Just look at the immigration debate going on in the USA now. Oh people care, and come up with some pretty desperate solutions.

[Mucha_Man]

@ac_dropout

[quote=“Quentin”]The difference is that about .00001% of people in America are white nationalists, while 99% of the people in Taiwan and mainland China are Chinese nationalists. Only racial fanatics care that you are Chinese-American in America. 99.9% of us don’t give a shit whether you’re Martian or Zimbabwean.

Then I must be very unlucky not being from Mars or Zimbabway when I’m in America. I think most people are pretty cool. But I’m sure it is not 99.9% of White Americans that don’t feel threatened about being displaced and don’t blame a “foreigner” every now and then.

Just look at the immigration debate going on in the USA now. Oh people care, and come up with some pretty desperate solutions.[/quote]

For once I have to agree with AC. Racism is still a fact of life in most places.

[mr_boogie]

Still, one cannot compare the ethnical diversity of US to the PRC. It may not be figures that absurd like Quentin posted, but it is a lot bigger than in the PRC.

For the post of the news of the Washington Post, only a braindead would think that the PRC government would let HK out of his tight control. If they can “possibly” push up the Taiwanese media, controlling the HK one is just child play. Also, look at what happens when a foreign reporter publish a story about the PRC, and the story is not exactly nice to the government.

[ac_dropout]

mr. boogie,

PRC claims 56 ethnic groups in China.
USA census has about 7 groups.
So there goes you claim about managing diversity properly.

Chinese Americans are suspected of spying in the USA and have their civil liberties suspended without just cause as well. Everyone of Chinese descent in the USA is a potential spy based on this news article.

[quote]http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/15625104.htm
Experts say Chinese espionage often involves tapping the hundreds of thousands of Chinese students and visiting business executives in the United States. A modest number of Chinese nationals living in the U.S. and Americans of Chinese descent also are recruited to help acquire information or technology, experts say.[/quote]

Speak a language a White guy doesn’t understand at an international airport and you could be label a terrorist.

[quote]http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/287261_tamil02ww.html
A 32-year-old man speaking Tamil and some English about a sporting rivalry was questioned at Sea-Tac Airport and missed his flight Saturday because at least one person thought he was suspicious.[/quote]

This type of xenophobia in the USA is similar to the one TI supporters use. Throughout history the population that chooses isolationist policies are the ones that will remain at a disadvantage in the long run. Taiwan will be no different.

If one refuses to accept the fact that simplified is more popular, and the fact that one is beyond the childhood age of aquiring language skills through osmosis, then on has to face the reality of what is the best use of ones time to become functionally literate in a new language.

It would be like an immigrant planning come to the USA and insisting, for whatever reason, that learning British English spelling was more functional or more politically in synch with their worldviews.

[cctang]

Count your lucky stars that Jasper Becker didn’t live in Taiwan. I’ve read Mr. Becker’s book “The Chinese”. It’s one of the most illogical, ridiculous, myopic pieces of garbage I’ve ever read. There’s a reason no other major paper, not even the Washington Post, picked up Becker as a Beijing correspondent after leaving SCMP. He’s as biased as the various Taiwan-haters you were busy confronting in an earlier incarnation.

[quote]
The remolding of the South China Morning Post mirrors what is happening throughout Hong Kong. Chief Executive Tung Cheehwa has started his second term in office apparently determined to give further proof of his loyalty to Beijing. He is tightening his control over the civil service and taking other steps to lessen Hong Kong’s autonomy.

For the press, a new anti-subversion law is soon to be passed. It will allow for broad interpretations of what constitute acts endangering state security, and could include news reporting that supports Tibetan or Taiwan independence, or is critical of Beijing’s handling of the Falun Gong movement.

The vision of “one country, two systems” becomes ever dimmer.

The writer is former Beijing bureau chief of the South China Morning Post. [/quote]
All of which has been proven false, 4 years on. The anti-subversion law, as it happens, was not passed. Tibetan or Taiwanese independence issues are still thoroughly covered in the HK press, English or Chinese. Jasper Becker likes to make himself the martyr, but any other number of very Chinese-language newspapers very critical of the Communist Party continues to have huge followings in Hong Kong. Dissidents continue to write. Amongst the Hong Kong’ers, at least, faith in 1C2S has regained its original heights.

I guess this is the point where I bring out the Hong Kong University’s Public Opinion Programme again.
hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress/index.html

There was a point during the adjustment period where many HK’ers were concerned about their futures. But 9 years after reunification, confidence in “One Country, Two Systems”, in the Beijing leadership, in press freedoms, and in China as a whole continues to grow. These are meaningful numbers that should be understood before you get too far deeper into a discussion of Hong Kong.

[jeff]

[quote=“ac_dropout”][quote=“Quentin”]
Just look at the immigration debate going on in the USA now. Oh people care, and come up with some pretty desperate solutions.[/quote][/quote]

I haven’t been keping up on this thread, so I’m only commenting on this point. For many (and I hope most), the immigration issue in the US has little or nothing to do with racism and everything to do with lost jobs, mis-spent taxpayer funds, and border security. The impact of these problems are felt many places, but probably most acutely here in Southern California. I’m all for legal immigration and enforcing immigration laws. The two are not mutaually exclusive.[/i]

[ac_dropout]

jeff,

I’m sure moderates on the issue, see the problem as an economic and labor issue, with little or nothing to due with race.

However, one cannot ignore the racial component in used to motivate people in South West. That the fast growing Hispanics population are making Whites a minority. That has some Whites concerned. They voice their concerns in term of evil of multiculturalism, and White nation built by Whites for Whites. Some of them feel powerless about being displaced or even worst fear retribution from minorities. I’m not say all whites are like this, just the really weird angy ones.

Arizona has a plan to built a 700 mile 2 layer steel fence on the boarder with Mexico as a solution. Does that sound logical? Maybe it is my Chinese history lessons. But quite a few dynasties in China collapse from the cost of maintaining and building that tourist attraction located a day trip outside Beiping.

This type of illogical solutions are also being applied in Taiwan. PRC tourist coming in from 3rd nations instead of directly flying over here.

TI supporters also mouth off these great WSR or Mainland conspiracy theories, and how they are being oppressed and displaced from their entitled position of being the great BSR majority. PRC citizens taking BSR best females, relegating them to mail order brides from Thailand and Vietnam…

[tempogain]

@op

What do you guys think about the movement to depose the president? Agree, disagree? Most of my Taiwanese friends in the U.S. seem to be supportive but to me it seems to be pretty undemocratic. Things seem so unstable and messy with the country now. Is now not the right time to move there?

[quote=“cctang”]

Anyways, I don’t wanna play that rhetorical game. Let’s just call your opinion what it really is: overwhelming intellectual dishonesty justified by your sympathies for the small segment of the Taiwanese population that hates everything there is to hate about the “evil empire”.[/quote]

apparently thyrdrail’s friends belong to the tremendous cross section of people who are against Chen and hate China. talk about walking a tightrope!

[tempogain]

[quote=“Juba”]The political crisis will be resolved within a few months when Chen Shuibian is, by hook or by crook, removed from office*. When the economy will look up is, however, anybody’s guess.

*My personal prediction - you can take it or leave it.[/quote]

your prediction sucks.

[tempogain]

[quote=“ac_dropout”], White Nationalist in the USA abide strictly by the “one drop rule,” if an individual is discovered be not 100% White they are no longer considered White.
.[/quote]

hey Chinese supremicists i mean nationalists are just the same. HAN POWER lol white nationalists lol