Taiwan's love for the Land of the Rising Sun

Nationality doesn’t neccessarily define ethnicity, but they can still be one and the same. Go to Singapore or Malaysia and check out what it says on ID cards under the ethnicity column. It says Chinese. Normally in mainland nomenclature, Chinese is interchangeable with Han but that doesn’t make the use of simply Chinese as an ethnic designator wrong. Ethnic definitions are a matter of perspective, and as no one is 100% anything, I fail to see how Chinese is not an ethnicity when billions of people outside China and in consider it one. Where two identities conflict, there can be overlap, it doesn’t neccessarily mean one has to triumph over the other.

The problem as I see it, is that some people who’ve read one too many issues of the TT and are so gung ho about Taidu that they will jump through any number of hoops to make a case for separatism, even to (might I add a poor effort at that) attempt to deconstruct Chinese identity.

In response to Jive Turkey, nice tangent there but I fail to see how press and political freedoms have anything to do the subject of “Chineseness”. Post that there are no Chinese on a mainland discussion forum and people will simply think you are crazy. I was expecting feeble strawmen from the likes of Hobart.

I love how TI/ers can’t just stop at disowning their own Chinese identity, but has to go around telling all Chinese that they are not Chinese. Are they afraid 1.2 billion Chinese and their inherent internal diversity may prove to be too much counterproof to the half-baked notion that the Taiwanese identity can’t possibly also be a Chinese identity?

Ouch. It must hurt the TI prosetlyzing.

Most Chinese are not blinded to reality and see quite obviously what languages are need to succeed in the modern world. One can be educated in a variety of languages and not compromise one’s identity or political affinity.[/quote]
It certainly does compromise one’s identity when one makes choices that undermine proficiency in one’s mother tongue or national language. That is the case in HK’s education system. A large number, and perhaps a majority of parents want their children educated in English, even if it hinders their cognitive development. Most of them cite a preference for British and or Western education over Chinese education as the reason for wanting English education for their kids.

What mad scramble, AC? There was no such scramble to learn Putonghua before '97. In case you didn’t notice, the most recognizeable mad scramble was the one for citizenship in Britain or other countries. There has been a gradual increase in the number of adults studying Putonghua in schools of continuing education, but there is no evidence whatsoever that their has been a rush. There certainly wasn’t one before 1997. Putonghua skills have improved only a bit, and people are mostly studying it for economic reasons. Secondary school students get 120 minutes a week in Putonghua for 3 years, and nobody is really pushing for more, much less queueing up for a decent Chinese education instead of a place at a so called “English medium school.” No, right or wrong, most HK people worship British or Western education and look down their noses at Chinese education.

Really then why are terms like Gwei-lo and Ah-Sigh used so ubiquitously in HK? There is obviously a distinction and implied social standing between even the Chinese and non-Chinese in HK.[/quote]
Ahem. I suppose you weren’t paying attention when after witnessing you expose your narrow mind, a HKer mistook you for a mainlander and called you an ah-chan.

AC, when a non-Chinese asks a HKer where he’s from, 99% of the time what is that HKer mostly likely to say? China or HK? In my opinion, that answer indicates a degree of ambivalence toward being Chinese.

Then why so many Guangdong immigrants funneling money back to the PRC for retirement or help family.[/quote]
So sending money to one’s family across the border means that one is miserable in HK, eh?

What evidence do you have that this was a trend during British rule? Especially in the 50s, 60s and 70s, being what you call a second class citizen in HK was certainly better than not being treated like a citizen in any sense of the word on the mainland.

If the British weren’t so desperate to sell drugs, buy eating utensils and spices, it would have remained that way. From a urban development point of view that place is a disaster waiting to happen. A tsunami or typhoon can wipe the whole place off the face of the earth. I’m sure the PRC will be blamed for the natural disaster in the future. [/quote]

That’s doubtful, but they certainly can share some of the credit for HK’s growth in the 50s, 60s and 70s. They provided the driving force for migration to HK: a lawless, chaotic system where mere survival was all most could hope for. On the other hand, British rule provided a place of refuge where the law ruled, ableit not as fairly as it would have in the British Isles. You just can’t bring yourself to accept that, can you? You can’t accept that it was so damn bad on the mainland that people were willing to move to a crowded place run by a foreign power.

You’re off on a tangent. My reply to your post was about your stupid assertion that HK people have no affinities for the Brits. You’d have to be blind and def to believe so.

And just like HK under colonial rule, they’re in a land that is not governed by Chinese people. :wink:

Welcome back cmdjing and Zeugmite. It’s a refreshing change to see the pro-unification argument presented in coherent, logically structured paragraphs.

Heck, I thought about teaching English in HK quite some time ago, but after reading about their preference for the “British” accent, especially in ads for teaching jobs, I dropped that idea in a hurry. (The expense of living in HK also weighed heavily in my decision)

Meanwhile, in Taiwan, “American English” is all the rage. It is advantageous for North Americans that the so-called “American English” is the English of choice here.

So is it genuinely harder for those with British/Australian/New Zealand/South African accents to get jobs in Taiwan, and the same for North Americans in HK?

[quote=“zeugmite”]I love how TI/ers can’t just stop at disowning their own Chinese identity, but has to go around telling all Chinese that they are not Chinese. Are they afraid 1.2 billion Chinese and their inherent internal diversity may prove to be too much counterproof to the half-baked notion that the Taiwanese identity can’t possibly also be a Chinese identity?

Ouch. It must hurt the TI prosetlyzing.[/quote]

:notworthy:

Who are these new people?

Then Chinese immigrants outside of China are all of a sudden not Chinese in your opinion. Okay you now have the entire SE asia to explain how 4th generation removed Chinese still consider themselves Chinese. :loco:

The counter argument would of course be how is the Taiwanese identity retained overseas. Many children that grow up abroad are barely fluent in Hoklo let alone Taiwanese. The West is even less friendly to Hoklo dialect than CSK ever was.

How about those Taiwanese Exiles that lived abroad for decades at a time and became fluent in another language.

Based on your argument these “fake” Taiwanese shouldn’t even bother with the political movements of TI or claim to be Taiwanese overseas. Let alone go back to Taiwan after CJG death and become politically active again.

Many already knew they could not leave. Those that were not Guangdong immigrants, who were already taught mandarin, were scrambling to learn. Starting from 1995 were good years for some Mandarin schools in HK.

HK’er are even more realistic than Taiwanese when it comes to making money. PRC is where’s the money is at, and that’s where all the HK’er are going. How many HK businesses moved their operations to the West in comparison to the PRC after 1997?

BTW, attitudes like this is why most HK’er don’t like Gwei-lo.

Sorry, I usually get a cultural pass as a Jook-Xin.

When they dream about retiring outside of HK and in the mainland. All is not rosey on HK.

I’ve met a few people in HK that regret immigrating to HK from Shanghai in the 50’s, in light of what how their peers became more successful deciding to remain behind on the mainland.

HK’er a shallow lot, it is not about political freedom there, it is all about the money.

That’s just a reality of life, the ups and downs of empires. Since the 21st century looks like it might be Asia’s century, I won’t hold it against people who rush to Asia in search of opportunities not available in thier homeland.

Because these trends that you allude to are usually beyond any individual’s control and should not reflect on them or their country of origin.

HK the shining example of British culture. Okay, I got it next time I get off the plane…Chippee on every corner and warm beer. :wink:

Just show me one mainstream HK political leader that promotes the “new HK identity” and how it is not Chinese in a bid to win HK independence from the PRC.

You are hopeless, AC.

I think loving Japan like that requires a person to divorce themself from China and being Chinese. They have some cool stuff, but they’re not THAT great. If you accept that TW is part of China, Japan can’t be trusted. If you need to prove you don’t, do something outrageous and hook up with the previous bad guys.

It’s like a teenager killing himself with cigarettes as a sign of independence from his mean parents. It doesn’t solve anything, but it sure feels good, doesn’t?

[quote=“taiwansotherside”]I think loving Japan like that requires a person to divorce themself from China and being Chinese.[/quote]Why? There are plenty of Americans who idolize everything Japanese, but they’re still American. I’ve even met a few people who thought China was the dog’s bollocks, but they didn’t reject their own heritage as a matter of necessity.

[quote]If you accept that TW is part of China, Japan can’t be trusted.[/quote]Why?

Taiwan only needs to look at Japan’s expansion of their EEZ around Diaoyutai at the expense of Ilan fishermen, to see how much Taiwan can trust Japan to protect its interest.

The Shenkaku islands belong to Japan to begin with. Even our former President has decided to abide by international law and recoginize who the real owners are.

Because in general the American Otaku population have no political statements against the US government, or a desire to create an “Otaku Nation” independent of the USA.

Even if there are extreme fans of Japanese pop culture who have this desire, they are very far from the mainstream political dialogue in the USA.

Whereas, the same does not hold true on Taiwan. You have an very vocal ex-president of Taiwan that influences pan-Green aggenda with his pro-Japan antics.

I don’t know what powers an out of office president on Taiwan has. But the current President, who’s position is still being fought in the court system, claims it belongs to ROC just only a weeks ago in a boat at sea.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]Whereas, the same does not hold true on Taiwan. You have an very vocal ex-president of Taiwan that influences pan-Green aggenda with his pro-Japan antics.[/quote]Come on then, back it up. Show us some evidence of people calling for Taiwan to be ceded to Japan again, or of Lee outright saying any such thing. Otherwise, my comment stands.

forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … i&&start=0

Rehashing an old argument.

Not to mention LTH advocates giving up the Diaoyutai island to Japan to further TI ambitions.

So Lee Teng Hui dressed up like a samurai. That’s ill-advised and stupid, yes, but still a far cry from saying “Taiwan should be part of Japan.” Try again. This time, try evidence.

Dressed up as a Samurai and claimed it was the “New Taiwanese Identity” he wants to teach at his school.

I don’t see many Americans Otakus cosplaying as Samurai claiming it is the “New American Identity” they want to teach everyone. Let alone an ex-President of the USA.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]
I don’t see many Americans Otakus…[/quote]

“Otaku”? Don’t worry ac, we otakus have lots of slang for you guys too. And you’ll like it alot less.

It only takes a couple pages for these threads to get to extremism.

In Asia, race is strongly equated with nationality and politics. Probably the most extreme examples of this put into action are Malaysia and Indonesia. Looking at the experience of Malaysia and Indonesia, there is a good argument to say that that is not to thier benefit. Would this kind thinking help “Greater China”?

In Taiwan, the experience of Japanese Colonialism and its supplanting by the KMT is a significant part of the Taiwan experience. This is different from HKG & China. Naturally I think you could expect to see some influence from, and affinity for, the Japanese. The TI’s stress on the the differentiation from Chinese I think comes from the fact that they are being told quite forcefully, and with real-word consequences that they are “Chinese”. Quite so - but they also have an identity as Taiwanese. It’s a bit like a Hindu (Taiwan) telling a Muslim (China) that god has many faces - you have to be a Hindu in the first place to think that way. China, nor any of the “Greater China” crowd will ever recognize that Taiwan could be another branch of the same thing.

Were I to look at my own background, according the the Chinese way of thinking, I could never be American, but I would still have to recognize and owe my allegiance the Scotland since that is my “racial” background.

As for the Honkies - I still believe tha HKG’ers believe they are the best Chinese in the world - I think they see the Chinese world as: Taiwanese are a bunch of rich bumpkins, the Chinese are a bunch or poor (but now getting richer) bumpkins, the Overseas Chinese are a bunch of sell-outs and the Singaporeans and Straights Chinese aren’t really Chinese anymore, but I digress…