# Teach English w/o a passport from 1 of 'the 7 countries'?

[quote=“skoster”][quote=“superking”][quote=“skoster”][quote=“tomthorne”]I am not a statistician, but I have a feeling that statistical significance should come into play here. Three, possible, examples of people outside the 7 nations working legally would probably be put down to chance. Would they not?

To even mildly suggest that people should base their careers based on these odds seems to me to be irresponsible.[/quote]

Depends entirely on the population that sample comes from. If there are 4 posters on Forumosa who are not from the 7/10 countries and have attempted to gain the work permit, then 3 is definitely statistically significant to the population of non-7/10 Forumosa posters who’ve attempted to get a work permit.

I doubt there are enough representatives of the population posting on Forumosa to get a usable sample of all people non-7/10 who have attempted to get a work permit based on TEFL. If you figure a reasonably large population (unknown actual number) and want a proportional statistic with 95% confidence level and margin of error of 5% you’ll need about 386 representatives in your sample based on: n = ((z^2pq)+ME^2)/(ME^2)[/quote]

I’d be interested to know how you made that power calculation, skoster. How did you estimate population variability and how did you get the Z score? Stats are so confusing for me! :bluemad:[/quote]

I treated it as a static, unknown sized population. First I got my alpha using 1 minus the confidence interval. For the z I took 1-alpha/2 and plugged it into an online Normal Calculator (link below). I chose a relatively high confidence interval and used p and q both at 0.5 because with an unknown population size I wanted to be conservative and land on the higher sample size. I’m no statistician, I can only do the basics.

Which part of the equation takes into account smurf frequency?

[quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“skoster”][quote=“superking”][quote=“skoster”][quote=“tomthorne”]I am not a statistician, but I have a feeling that statistical significance should come into play here. Three, possible, examples of people outside the 7 nations working legally would probably be put down to chance. Would they not?

To even mildly suggest that people should base their careers based on these odds seems to me to be irresponsible.[/quote]

Depends entirely on the population that sample comes from. If there are 4 posters on Forumosa who are not from the 7/10 countries and have attempted to gain the work permit, then 3 is definitely statistically significant to the population of non-7/10 Forumosa posters who’ve attempted to get a work permit.

I doubt there are enough representatives of the population posting on Forumosa to get a usable sample of all people non-7/10 who have attempted to get a work permit based on TEFL. If you figure a reasonably large population (unknown actual number) and want a proportional statistic with 95% confidence level and margin of error of 5% you’ll need about 386 representatives in your sample based on: n = ((z^2pq)+ME^2)/(ME^2)[/quote]

I’d be interested to know how you made that power calculation, skoster. How did you estimate population variability and how did you get the Z score? Stats are so confusing for me! :bluemad:[/quote]

I treated it as a static, unknown sized population. First I got my alpha using 1 minus the confidence interval. For the z I took 1-alpha/2 and plugged it into an online Normal Calculator (link below). I chose a relatively high confidence interval and used p and q both at 0.5 because with an unknown population size I wanted to be conservative and land on the higher sample size. I’m no statistician, I can only do the basics.

Which part of the equation takes into account smurf frequency?[/quote]

A true statistician ^^ :bravo:

Who the hump are you guys protecting anyway? Who is this mythical global simpleton who relies on forumosa to deliver the final verdict on their future?

That way could lie madness, but I thank you, sir.

To those who are concerned lest we give people false hopes, I share that concern on the one hand, but on the other hand I agree with wolf_reinhold:

[quote]Let the kid have his chance to put his snout in the trough.[/quote] forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … 99#p249299

And as for the stats and the math, I respect that, but:

[quote]Of all that one should care to fathom, I
Was never deep in anything but–Wine.[/quote]
is.gd/Omar_K

Okay finally got around to making that call to the Buxiban Association. It was an eye-opener. I explained the question to him, and he said “The answer is simple.” He went on to explain how it depended on whether the language to be taught was an official language of the country. We specifically discussed Malaysia–impossible according to him–Singapore–okay–and the Philippines–okay. That squares with what is shown here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … l_language

He mentioned that many would face practical problems getting a visa to come here and a job once here, but that getting an ARC if a job was offered would not be one of them. He said that official languages could be found in a list of countries on the Foreign Ministry website. I found this list; I think the “語言:” field is meant to imply “official” languages but not 100% sure. (EDIT–Someone at an MOFA service line confirmed that it should be, but that the information was only provided for reference and that one should check through the country in question.)

mofa.gov.tw/Regions/Index/?o … 276783163d

It does seem to specify in the case of Malaysia that while English is used there, it doesn’t have official status:

“馬來語為國語，英語及華語亦通行。”

As far as I’m concerned, based on what I heard from this guy, who should know, and the CLA, that settles it–no seven nation rule. Has anyone heard of someone specifically being rejected on these grounds?

Great job, Tempo Gain! Thanks for that!

:bravo:

That sounds about as close to a definitive answer as is possible in Taiwan. Nice one, TG!

Oh, and pretty much the opposite of everything I’ve been led to believe since coming here .

Well done TG.

Another myth busted.

Or is it?

Oh, that’s fantastic. However, it completely contradicts what I have been told be the CLA. Does your friend at the Buxiban Association approve work permits?

One of the things he does is collecting required documents for ARC applications from schools and passing them on to the CLA. He’s the BA’s point man for this service.

I didn’t think to ask him this, but could there have been a policy change at some point? When were you told so?

Do you really believe that a Nigerian person would be approved for an English teaching work permit? English is an official language of Nigeria of course…

I wish I also lived in a gum drop house on Lollipop Lane…

You have proven absolutely nothing. Everyone can praise you all they want. The only thing that matters is who actually gets appproved.

How would we prove it, beyond actually going hand-in-hand to make an application–actually probably several–and seeing the results? I’ve simply reported the best information available to my knowledge. Of course I’d still suggest that anyone verify it personally with the CLA before taking it as fact.

Tempo Gain,

I’ll apologize right here where everyone can see for being a prick in the PM’s I sent you. You have done what no-one else was willing to do. The book I mentioned said exactly what you found out and I know of more than one person who has an ARC from a country that does not include the list of 7 working here as an English teacher and actually some of them are very good. It also would not be fair to just post their names and the names of the schools they work here as it is private information. It is now quite clear that what the CLA told funkymonkey was wrong. We have heard now first hand that they can get the ARC and we have also heard from people other than myself that there are such people. I say Job well done and if I ever see you in person, I’ll buy you an apology beer if you want it.

How many applications has your friend at the BA sent in, who were not from one of the seven countries, approved?

Would you like to tell them? :roflmao: Have you ever tried to get a work permit for a person not from one of the seven countries? Didn’t think so…

Would you like to tell them? :roflmao: Have you ever tried to get a work permit for a person not from one of the seven countries? Didn’t think so… [/quote]
Yes, I have and I was successful. I also have a friend who got a work permit for a Korean teacher teaching Chinese here in a high school. Now if you told anyone about that, they would tell you that a foreign teacher can not teach Chinese here, but they’ll be wrong. If you read back a few pages, you’ll see that I posted a book title, which explains who can and cannot get work permits. It’s 130 NT.

Would you like to tell them? :roflmao: Have you ever tried to get a work permit for a person not from one of the seven countries? Didn’t think so… [/quote]
Yes, I have and I was successful.[/quote]
Sorry, but I say that you are full of bs. What was the permit called?

Edit: Now he’s sitting there trying to figure out how google translate works… I’ll give you a hint… the answer isn’t correct.

Why are you being so mean? Nothing that I have said has changed. Others have claimed that what you heard from the CLA was inaccurate. Now TG has confirmed that. Attacking me and calling me a liar isn’t going to help.
It was a work permit and ARC application for a teacher from the island group south of Taiwan for the school where I use to study and now work part-time when I am not teaching math. And if you would really like to know, she gets paid the same as the other ‘foreign’ teachers, because her ARC is for an English teacher.
I could also say that her ARC says nothing cause it can’t talk, but the sarcasm might ruin the point.

Thank you sir, to the best of my knowledge I have yet to turn down a beer, much less an apology beer. I look forward to the opportunity for that some day and to reciprocate In truth I probably could have asked sooner but there was more drama this way you have to admit

I didn’t ask FM, but it wasn’t a hostile questioning. I’ve known him for a while and trust both him, as well as the professionalism and accuracy of the Taipei Buxiban Association completely. In addition, these guys have no love for the bureaucracy here, as they butt heads with it constantly, and have never been shy in telling me so. If the CLA wasn’t playing straight I’m sure he wouldn’t like anything better than to tell me about it.