Teach English w/o a passport from 1 of 'the 7 countries'?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
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[quote=“bigduke6”]
Most, if not all, countries have English as an official language[/quote]

Come on, this is just not true. Not even the US have English as official language (at the federal level), nor do the UK and Australia. :slight_smile:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_English_is_an_official_language

http://answers.usa.gov/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1000&PARTITION_ID=1&TIMEZONE_OFFSET=&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=10629&SIDE_LINK_TOPIC_ID=&SIDE_LINK_SUB_TOPIC_ID=&EXPANDED_TOPIC_TREE_NODES=&TOPIC_ID=1025

If the criterion for teaching legally in Taiwan were based on the officiality of English in one’s home country/state they should get rid of all teachers from, e.g., Texas or Massachusetts.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States

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I wonder, then, on what basis the government decides which countries are native English speaking countries. Obviously not from Wikipedia (whose own source, unfortunately, does not appear to be mentioned.)

See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English-speaking_world

According to the article, English is the native language of the majority in 6 of “the 7 countries”.
English is also the native and majority language of many Carribean countries.

The one missing from the list of seven is South Africa, where it is the official language, but not the majority language. In this respect, it shares the same status as 23 other African countries, as well as several Asian countries including India, Philippines and Singapore.

I haven’t read all the posts on this thread, but it seems to me like basis on which the government decides which countries are native English speaking countries has got something to do with skin color. Looks like racism, I’m afraid.
How shameful if it’s true.[/quote]

You are looking at the wrong article. English speaking world differs from the official language article.

Try this Wikipedia article.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_where_English_is_an_official_language

But this list is not the important criteria.

The important criteria, is those countries recognized by TW as Native English Speaking Countries.

South Africa is on the list,but for the US, Aussie, and UK, English is de facto.

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[quote=“bigduke6”]…But this list is not the important criteria.

The important criteria, is those countries recognized by TW as Native English Speaking Countries.[/quote]
My question was: on what basis is a country recognised by the ROC government as a native English speaking country?

If it were on the basis of being an official language of that country, then dozens of countries would have to be included.

If it were on the basis of being the only official language (or in the cases of Australia, UK and USA, the defacto official language), then Canada, and SA would have to be excluded (and Ireland too, I think).

If it were on the basis of being not only an official language, but the language spoken by the majority, then SA should be excluded and many Carribean countries should be included.

However, if (as appears to be the case) it is on the basis of being an official language and spoken by a significant percentage of the population who happen to have white skin, then it kind of explains how we end up with the list of seven, unofficial though it may be.
Though as I said, it’s also racist and shameful.

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USA
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
South Africa
England
Northern Ireland
Wales
Ireland
Scotland

I make that TEN. Or are Wales, Scotland, N.Ireland and England one country? :smiley:

What about places like Bermuda? I believe their inhabitants can be black or white in skin tone, they speak with American accents yet the British Queen is their head of state. Can Bermudans have an ARC? English is their official language.

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[quote=“superking”]

What about places like Bermuda? I believe their inhabitants can be black or white in skin tone, they speak with American accents yet the British Queen is their head of state. Can Bermudans have an ARC? English is their official language.[/quote]

In fact, in how many countries can a university graduate be presumed to have native-level English? I would assume the answer would be “yes” throughout much of the the Caribbean?

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[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“superking”]

What about places like Bermuda? I believe their inhabitants can be black or white in skin tone, they speak with American accents yet the British Queen is their head of state. Can Bermudans have an ARC? English is their official language.[/quote]

In fact, in how many countries can a university graduate be presumed to have native-level English? I would assume the answer would be “yes” throughout much of the the Caribbean?[/quote]

I believe the official languages of such countries are usually a patois though. As far as I know English is the main official language of Bermuda. The Cayman islands is another B.O.T. I can think of where you have natives of all skin colours, many of whom will speak no language other than English.

And God forbid any bugger from the Falklands trying to apply… :smiley:

287

[quote=“superking”]USA
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
South Africa
England
Northern Ireland
Wales
Ireland
Scotland

I make that TEN.[/quote]

Eleven. Louisiana is bounded on three sides by the U. S., and at least half of us speak some dialect or another of English.

If you listen carefully, you can even hear some English (I think that would be the Mamou dialect) in this video:

288

This has still got nothing to do with OFFICIAL languages.
The one and only criteria is, does the person come from one of the seven countries that the Taiwanese gov believes English is the NATIVE language.

Why they believe only seven countries have English as their NATIVE language is another topic altogether.

For the purposes of this discussion, I think that it has been proved that only people from these 7 countries can teach here legally.

Obviously JFRV and APRC holders as well, regardless of nationality.

289

[quote=“bigduke6”]

For the purposes of this discussion, I think that it has been proved that only people from these 7 countries can teach here legally.

.[/quote]
Where exactly. That’s what this is all about. In your head it has and those who have ARC’s from other countries are just mistakes or paid bribes, which is just rubbish. So other that your friend who has his own school’s opinion and yours, where has this been “proven”? In fact I think the opposite has been proven.

290

[quote=“E04teacherlin”][quote=“bigduke6”]

For the purposes of this discussion, I think that it has been proved that only people from these 7 countries can teach here legally.

.[/quote]
In fact I think the opposite has been proven.[/quote]

I agree with you, E04. Tempo Gain phoned up and was told no such list of 7 exists. This whole spat over the last few days has shown that there are no clear rules and that there are people from countries outside the 7 (although the UK is not even a country) who have an ARC which they obtained legitimately to teach English, working in Taiwan.

The only thing which hasn’t changed in all of this is bigduke’s dogged determination to stick to his guns.

You can blink all you want as you read that sentence BD, but there it is. No list. Case by case.

[quote]I asked about the Philippines as an example. He said “I don’t think so!” [/quote] Now, was it as in: 'I am not sure," as I read it, or was it as in, “Don’t be so bloody stupid,” as you read it.

I understand you don’t want people from Peru turning up trying to teach English based on false information. That is admirable. However, I think you’ll need to accept that people from countries outside of your big 7 legitimately have an ARC to teach English as it is a case by case process. TG’s phone convo did not back up your claim, it refuted it.

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Me, too.

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I don’t blame him. I’ll state this again: I was told it is not possible to hire teachers at my school who are not from one of the seven countries. How do you explain that? Tempo Gain was told that a person from the Philippines couldn’t be hired. How do you explain that? If there is no such list, then why were the people at the CLA constantly referring to it when I was there?

Complete hogwash. If anything, there are more questions than ever before.

293

I don’t blame him. I’ll state this again: I was told it is not possible to hire teachers at my school who are not from one of the seven countries. How do you explain that? Tempo Gain was told that a person from the Philippines couldn’t be hired. How do you explain that? If there is no such list, then why were the people at the CLA constantly referring to it when I was there?

Complete hogwash. If anything, there are more questions than ever before.[/quote]

I explain it thus:

  1. How many times have you tried to hire people outside of the 7 countries? How far into the process did you get? How many different people have you spoken to with official status to tell you what is correct? How many times did you go to the CLA? I believe there must be a situation where there are many variables involved in the decision to grant an ARC. Taiwanese interpretations of laws seem to be fluid at times and not at all black and white. And not to slur the Taiwanese, but I think you should be aware that they will all stick to the same story if it is the story their boss is dishing out at that moment. Especially they won’t question their boss for you.
  2. TempoGain spoke to one person who said they didn’t think a person from the Philippines could be hired. As much as it weakens my own argument about there being no list, TG spoke to one guy, so he has evidence n=1. Do we know the credentials of the guy TG spoke to? How long has this person been at their job?

I agree that there are more questions than ever before. BD is saying there are no questions (I think) so you are agreeing with me. The TG phonecall did not confirm the existence of a hard list of 7 countries and there was no definitive response that a person from the Philippines can’t get an ARC to teach.

Somehow you are choosing to see things in your own way. You aren’t being asked to believe that an alien dingo killed the ghost of Ronald Reagan, but that something outside of your personal experience is true. Would you like these people to personally phone you and come over and show you their ARC? Would you like to witness a number of people apply for and receive an ARC while you stand there telling the offical, “I don’t think you can do that. Can you do that? Are you sure you can do that?”

You want to believe what you want to believe, then I say: go for it. All power to you. But other people are going to believe something different.

294

So how many legal English teachers do any of you personally know, with a passport outside the 7?

I even asked the woman at one of the large chains I do some part time work for. She told me it was impossible and that the gov does not allow it.

All the evidence certainly points to this no matter how you look at it.

295

I don’t personally know anyone with an ARC to do anything. :blush:

If by evidence you mean teachers from 7 (10) countries with an ARC vs teachers from other places with an ARC then, yes. Probably 99% biased in one direction. Do I believe it is possible for someone from somewhere else to get an ARC to teach English…legally…and without error on the part of the issuer… yes. But I don’t think they are issued easily and not as willy nilly as they are to people from certain countries.

For me it boils down to: Do I think the Taiwanese laws surrounding this matter are rigid and unchangeable, and I’d have to say no. There seems to be some wriggle room in this area based on human interpretation of the laws (what language is in passport, what is an offical language, what is a national language, did the person study education, in English, in their home country - these are variables I’d wager will shift the situation day by day, hour by hour, official by official). I’d accept that it is a case by case situation, although not all cases are weighted equally at the start of the application process.

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[quote=“bigduke6”]So how many legal English teachers do any of you personally know, with a passport outside the 7?

I even asked the woman at one of the large chains I do some part time work for. She told me it was impossible and that the gov does not allow it.

All the evidence certainly points to this no matter how you look at it.[/quote]
Not all the evidence. Remember there was this:

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If it makes you happy let me say, the vast majority of the evidence.

Besides Funkymonkey, who owns a school, another person who deals with ARCs for a large again confirmed this as I mentioned above.

I have just arrived at the other school I work at, and they also confirm it.

I also doubt anyone could find a school employing anyone with a passport outside the 7.

The fact that nobody can produce an official list is not really relevant for practical purposes.
It still definitely seems to be the policy, and I doubt anyone could disagree with this.

298

It was definitely a “don’t be bloody stupid” kind of “I don’t think so.” Not a “definitely not”, but I wouldn’t like to bet on it.

[quote=“superking”]

For me it boils down to: Do I think the Taiwanese laws surrounding this matter are rigid and unchangeable, and I’d have to say no. There seems to be some wriggle room in this area based on human interpretation of the laws (what language is in passport, what is an offical language, what is a national language, did the person study education, in English, in their home country - these are variables I’d wager will shift the situation day by day, hour by hour, official by official). I’d accept that it is a case by case situation, although not all cases are weighted equally at the start of the application process.[/quote]

For me, what it boils down to is what a normal person can reliably expect to see occur as a result of the bureaucratic process. You can’t make expensive long-term plans based on wriggle room.

For sure, anyone from the 7 nations meeting the other ordinary qualifications definitely can rest assured about this expectation. I wouldn’t say so from anywhere else as of now.

299

[quote=“Tempo Gain”]

[quote=“superking”]

For me it boils down to: Do I think the Taiwanese laws surrounding this matter are rigid and unchangeable, and I’d have to say no. There seems to be some wriggle room in this area based on human interpretation of the laws (what language is in passport, what is an offical language, what is a national language, did the person study education, in English, in their home country - these are variables I’d wager will shift the situation day by day, hour by hour, official by official). I’d accept that it is a case by case situation, although not all cases are weighted equally at the start of the application process.[/quote]

For me, what it boils down to is what a normal person can reliably expect to see occur as a result of the bureaucratic process. You can’t make expensive long-term plans based on wriggle room.

For sure, anyone from the 7 nations meeting the other ordinary qualifications definitely can rest assured about this expectation. I wouldn’t say so from anywhere else as of now.[/quote]

Indeed.

The other concern for me is that new posters tend to hear what they want to hear. If a guy from, say, India asks the question “Can I legally teach English in Taiwan?” he’s going to view a response saying “Technically you could, and I have a friend of a friend who does” as the green light. IME new posters don’t tend to listen to the more reasoned responses such as “Well, we’re not sure and there doesn’t seem to be an official list of accepted countries as such. However, the experience of the majority of posters on this site is that your application will probably get rejected.”

It would be nice to hear some teachers who are from countries other than the 7 post their experiences on here. The silence is somewhat deafening.

300

Frankly, I’m not entirely sure any law here is worth the paper it’s printed on. I’ve been in plenty of situations where power was openly expressed arbitrarily for its own sake, with complete disregard for a contract, laws, etc.

Likewise, I’m still astounded that I know someone in Taiwan who has been here for more than five years. He has no ARC. Every single month he does a visa run (he also travels). Between his various passports (because he goes through one every couple of years), he basically has more than sixty stamps entering Taiwan and more than sixty stamps leaving Taiwan. Presumably, there’s a computer record which an immigration officer sees every time he enters or leaves. Obviously, it doesn’t take a genius to put two and two together and figure out that the guy is working illegally here. Yet on it goes.

There are a bazillion bilingual kindergartens in this country. People do all sorts of crazy shit on the roads in sight of police. There’s corruption, illegal pollution, you name it.

Basically, I have no idea what the law is, and basically, it wouldn’t matter even if I did because you – anyone – show me any law in this country which is clearly and consistently enforced and I’ll fall over in shock. The law could go as far as to state “we love Indians, please give all Indians who apply visas and big bags of money upon arrival in Taiwan” and some mid-level bureaucrat and his minions would probably still cock block every application.