Teach English w/o a passport from 1 of 'the 7 countries'?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
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[quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“superking”]

CJ, I always read your posts! I’ve even recommended a couple of them, and I’m like Scrooge McDuck with my recommend button. :laughing: Now we need to get tomthorne to tidy up his quoting, as it looks like he wrote the exact same thing as me.[/quote]

Apologies. I was in a rush to pop out and take advantage of the beer drinking opportunities afforded by the wonderful sunny weather in Taiwan right now.

How’s the weather in blighty?[/quote]

It is absolutely glorious today. Just for once. It’s been pigging ruinous for ages. Today, bright and sunny (but not warm). Shame the world is going to end in two hours and 8 minutes really.

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[quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“tomthorne”]Hang on just a minute.

Perhaps my post was a little naughty, and for that I apologise to non-native speakers. However, I was commenting on the fact that the OP, Irina?, had suddenly disappeared and my initial, honest response to his question had become the new original post. Why do you think had irina disappeared? Why do you think posters suddenly get taken off forumosa? These questions aren’t rhetorical, by the way. I don’t know why irina was taken off, but at the time I was guessing that he was a smurf.[/quote]

Okay, my apologies, too. I was wrong to take it as a general comment.

Edit: Whoa! Two people read my post!* Must be my new aftershave.

*superking and tomthorne[/quote]

Sir, you do yourself a disservice. I read all of your posts under the assumption that any thoughtful individual would and should do the same.[/quote]

See, I was thinking just that when I bought that aftershave.

Or rather, thanks. :notworthy:

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I am not a statistician, but I have a feeling that statistical significance should come into play here. Three, possible, examples of people outside the 7 nations working legally would probably be put down to chance. Would they not?

To even mildly suggest that people should base their careers based on these odds seems to me to be irresponsible.

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[quote=“tomthorne”]I am not a statistician, but I have a feeling that statistical significance should come into play here. Three, possible, examples of people outside the 7 nations working legally would probably be put down to chance. Would they not?

To even mildly suggest that people should base their careers based on these odds seems to me to be irresponsible.[/quote]

Yep. But it would make me nervous to just say, “You just can’t do that.” On the other hand, if we try to give a detailed explanation, they may just take in what they want to take in, and that could lead to big disappointment, and maybe disaster in some cases. I don’t know, maybe we should just tell them they can’t do it. But that makes me uneasy.

By the way, I don’t think this situation (I mean, the confusion or disagreement about what to communicate) is our fault. (By “our fault,” I mean “the fault of us foreigners.”) Whoever is at fault, I don’t think it’s us.

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[quote=“Charlie Jack”][quote=“tomthorne”]I am not a statistician, but I have a feeling that statistical significance should come into play here. Three, possible, examples of people outside the 7 nations working legally would probably be put down to chance. Would they not?

To even mildly suggest that people should base their careers based on these odds seems to me to be irresponsible.[/quote]

Yep. But it would make me nervous to just say, “You just can’t do that.” On the other hand, if we try to give a detailed explanation, they may just take in what they want to take in, and that could lead to big disappointment, and maybe disaster in some cases. I don’t know, maybe we should just tell them they can’t do it. But that makes me uneasy.

By the way, I don’t think this situation (I mean, the confusion or disagreement about what to communicate) is our fault. (By “our fault,” I mean “the fault of us foreigners.”) Whoever is at fault, I don’t think it’s us.[/quote]

Fair enough. I, like most of us, don’t really know. We regularly get questions from people outside the 7 nations asking if they can teach and it’s difficult to know what is the “right” answer to give. All I know for sure is if it were a mate of mine I would definitely say no. Absolutely no way would I recommend a friend of mine who wasn’t from one of those countries to come to Taiwan and try to teach.

Having said that, I wouldn’t recommend a mate from England to do the same either. Although for different, non-legal, reasons :laughing:

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Good point, and well said! So it’s kind of a pickle. I wish I could say I knew what to do about it, but I don’t.

I think it’s good we had/are having this discussion, though.[/quote]

Exactly. We are going in circles because this problem has existed before and keeps on going. I am the first one to recommend to any person who does not have the passport from one of the 7, even if they have lived in the States/UK/etc. all their lives, in spite of degrees, experience and relevant studies, NOT to try to teach or teach even through the loops. It comes to bite you when you least expect it. You lose more than you win, in every aspect -taxes, residence, etc. And most importantly, you will never be treated the same as the people from the 7. Call it racist, call it prejudiced, call it anything but it is a fact of working here. If you don’t like it, go elsewhere to work.

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[quote=“tomthorne”]Fair enough. I, like most of us, don’t really know. We regularly get questions from people outside the 7 nations asking if they can teach and it’s difficult to know what is the “right” answer to give. All I know for sure is if it were a mate of mine I would definitely say no. Absolutely no way would I recommend a friend of mine who wasn’t from one of those countries to come to Taiwan and try to teach.

Having said that, I wouldn’t recommend a mate from England to do the same either. Although for different, non-legal, reasons :laughing:[/quote]

I hear you. When a former classmate of mine mentioned coming over here as a possibility, I tried to lead him away from the idea by indirect dribs and drabs. With another former classmate, I think I just didn’t respond. I let the silence speak for me.

It’s not that I think it’s terrible. I just think it might not be for everybody.

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You have mates?? :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

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[quote=“tomthorne”]I am not a statistician, but I have a feeling that statistical significance should come into play here. Three, possible, examples of people outside the 7 nations working legally would probably be put down to chance. Would they not?

To even mildly suggest that people should base their careers based on these odds seems to me to be irresponsible.[/quote]

Human beings don’t understand odds very well though old chap. Example:
You are on a game show. The host shows you three doors. Behind one of the doors is a pot of gold coins. Behind the other two doors are goats. You must pick one of the doors, and behind that will be your prize.
What are your chances of picking the gold coins in this scenario? One in three, yes.

So let’s say you pick door number one. The host of the show – let’s call him “superking,” – says “Fine. But before we open door number one, let me open door number three.” Behind door number three is a goat.“Would you like to change the number of the door you chose?” asks superking. Should you? Does it make a difference?

Although it appeals to us to deal with issues like this in terms of, ‘what are the chances,’ the problem is that working out the chances is really very complicated.

And the apocalypse never happened. What a rip off.

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As is the silence regarding the apparently racist thinking underlying the 7 countries policy.

Am I the only one that feels ashamed that the country I consider my home appears to have a unofficial policy that, from a global perspective, effectively discriminates between English teachers based on the color of their skin?

How else can the “7 country” policy be explained???

[/quote]

Thinking about this a bit more today, actually a large chunk of SA’s population wouldn’t fit in to this explanation, as well as the USA and the UK to a considerable extent. Less sure about the other four. Maybe a more complicated explanation could be made, “classist” for want of a better word than “racist”?

Haven’t got around to phoning the buxiban people yet. Maybe tomorrow, they should be working.

[quote=“superking”][quote=“bigduke6”]So, how many of you would come to Taiwan to teach English, without a passport from the 7 countries mentioned?

Obviously the assumption is that you don’t have an APRC or JFRV.[/quote]

That is a strange question because we can only answer that as members of The Fantastical Seven of Ten and as such our decisions are biased by use having already lived in Taiwan. “Imagine you, as an Englishman, were actually born in Bermuda and had never experienced living in Taiwan, and you had read this thread and wanted to teach English in Taiwan, would you consider it to be a viable option for you, based on what you have read over the last 10 pages?” It’s too hard mate. And it will reveal nothing. We already know who stands where on this matter and really sweet sod all has changed as a result of our finger tapping.

[/quote]

I think I’d draw the correct conclusion that I’d better independently make sure before committing to anything.

Anyway, we’re trying. It does seem to be true that this information is not exactly readily available.

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Noob here, but here’s my 2 cents… Ever since I got into the buxiban game, I’ve got racism, sexism, ethnic discrimination, and ageism. As of last Saturday, religious discrimination. And now my nationality? I say cool! :bravo:

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Welcome to (one of the many faces of) Taiwan.

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[quote=“superking”][quote=“tomthorne”]I am not a statistician, but I have a feeling that statistical significance should come into play here. Three, possible, examples of people outside the 7 nations working legally would probably be put down to chance. Would they not?

To even mildly suggest that people should base their careers based on these odds seems to me to be irresponsible.[/quote]

Human beings don’t understand odds very well though old chap. Example:
You are on a game show. The host shows you three doors. Behind one of the doors is a pot of gold coins. Behind the other two doors are goats. You must pick one of the doors, and behind that will be your prize.
What are your chances of picking the gold coins in this scenario? One in three, yes.

So let’s say you pick door number one. The host of the show – let’s call him “superking,” – says “Fine. But before we open door number one, let me open door number three.” Behind door number three is a goat.“Would you like to change the number of the door you chose?” asks superking. Should you? Does it make a difference?

[/quote]

Why would I choose another door when I’ve already won one of the two top prizes? :loco: Or, do I get to keep both goats if I get lucky again?

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As is the silence regarding the apparently racist thinking underlying the 7 countries policy.

Am I the only one that feels ashamed that the country I consider my home appears to have a unofficial policy that, from a global perspective, effectively discriminates between English teachers based on the color of their skin?

How else can the “7 country” policy be explained???

[/quote]

Thinking about this a bit more today, actually a large chunk of SA’s population wouldn’t fit in to this explanation, as well as the USA and the UK to a considerable extent. Less sure about the other four. Maybe a more complicated explanation could be made, “classist” for want of a better word than “racist”?

Haven’t got around to phoning the buxiban people yet. Maybe tomorrow, they should be working.

[quote=“superking”][quote=“bigduke6”]So, how many of you would come to Taiwan to teach English, without a passport from the 7 countries mentioned?

Obviously the assumption is that you don’t have an APRC or JFRV.[/quote]

That is a strange question because we can only answer that as members of The Fantastical Seven of Ten and as such our decisions are biased by use having already lived in Taiwan. “Imagine you, as an Englishman, were actually born in Bermuda and had never experienced living in Taiwan, and you had read this thread and wanted to teach English in Taiwan, would you consider it to be a viable option for you, based on what you have read over the last 10 pages?” It’s too hard mate. And it will reveal nothing. We already know who stands where on this matter and really sweet sod all has changed as a result of our finger tapping.

[/quote]

I think I’d draw the correct conclusion that I’d better independently make sure before committing to anything.

Anyway, we’re trying. It does seem to be true that this information is not exactly readily available.[/quote]

The previous SA gov recognised Taiwan diplomatically until the ANC took over in 94.
I believe the 7 country rule came in around the early 90’s, so that could be one reason for SA included?

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You beat me to the punch on that one!

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[quote=“bigduke6”]The previous SA gov recognised Taiwan diplomatically until the ANC took over in 94.
I believe the 7 country rule came in around the early 90’s, so that could be one reason for SA included?[/quote]

Good point.

Then again, what about Belize, where English is not only the official language, but the language spoken by the majority of citizens?

Then there’s countries like Swaziland and several Oceanic states, where English is the official language (though like SA, it is not the native language of the majority of citizens).

It’s hard to see how the skin color of the majority of English native speakers in a particular country is not the crucial factor. (Though perhaps not being a tiny state helps too.)

BTW, I wonder whether there once was an official list, but for various reasons it is now unofficial, yet still applied by certain bureaucrats.

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[quote=“adikarmika”][quote=“bigduke6”]The previous SA gov recognised Taiwan diplomatically until the ANC took over in 94.
I believe the 7 country rule came in around the early 90’s, so that could be one reason for SA included?[/quote]

Good point.

Then again, what about Belize, where English is not only the official language, but the language spoken by the majority of citizens?

Then there’s countries like Swaziland and several Oceanic states, where English is the official language (though like SA, it is not the native language of the majority of citizens).

It’s hard to see how the skin color of the majority of English native speakers in a particular country is not the crucial factor. (Though perhaps not being a tiny state helps too.)

BTW, I wonder whether there once was an official list, but for various reasons it is now unofficial, yet still applied by certain bureaucrats.[/quote]

Being a tiny state is an interesting one. New Zealand and Ireland have both small populations and small land areas.

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The link between the 7 (10) countries is the British Isles. I think we all know that. :discodance:

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Three… (edit: i wrote that before coming across the other endorsements)

BTW, i also admire your patience in the face of arguments of the “don’t confuse me with facts” variety. :wink:

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Three… (edit: i wrote that before coming across the other endorsements)[/quote]

Thanks! :slight_smile: That’s three people, so that’s 30¢ commission I’ve made off this thread so far!

[quote=“yuli”]BTW, i also admire your patience. . . .[/quote] Thanks again. It’s not one of my natural traits, I assure you, but both my patience and my concentration tend to increase when I’m doing something other than what I’m supposed to be doing, as in the case of most of the posts I’ve written in this thread. :laughing:

Merry Christmas, yuli! :slight_smile: