Maybe it is naive to believe that if der West got out of their countries, stopped rattling their cage, taking their land and killing their people that things would settle down again but it’s worth a try. Who knows?,Maybe things would go back to the way they were for centuries when westerners could walk the streets of any city in the Middle East in safety and Al Qaeda and Wahhabism were as inconceivable as America operating torture chanbers.
Did I?
Yes… Er… you do realize that the Fourth Crusade is not the Reconquista, don’t you?
I disagree. You are making the assertion so prove it.
Huh?[/quote]
yes, yes, yes, just because I mentioned Reconquista and Constantinople doesn’t mean Im saying these things happened in a flash, overnight. these events and shifts happen over centuries etc. jeez. stop quibbling.
Can you be more specific as to why you disagree? just saying you disagree doesn’t help me to rebut it.
[quote=“Jack Burton”][quote=“Ermintrude”]
I read it because I read newspapers, not because some flob pundit second-hands it to me.
[/quote]
wow, full of yourself, much? no wonder you and FS get put in the same category.[/quote]
You’ve only just noticed that? I genuinely am incredibly full of myself. Yet also humble about what I don’t know and can’t do. It’s a good way to operate, I think.
Response to yuli being slightly arch and condescending about people reading the frigging Guardian (left wing comic book) as if it denotes either intelligence or engagement with the world.
Look at the dick-waving up above about basic history … This is interesting for non-Euros, perhaps. I did it at school. I don’t want to be lectured about ‘reading sources’ if they are daily papers or google links for common knowledge.
And don’t be dissing no fred. At least he’d be fun to drink with.
Make up your mind will you before another boneheaded war breaks out.
You wrote:
I responded:
So based on the juxtaposition of these two sentences, one with reading comprehension capabilities would, one hopes, understand that “I disagree” is being made in reference to your “predicated on the immense translation projects of Greek to Arabic by scholars centered in Baghdad.” Hard to understand that connection?
I disagree that the Arab Golden Age was “all that” and I challenge the historical revisionists to prove that the Arab World was so crucial to the development of the Renaissance and technological innovation and free thinking in the West. I am not saying there were no contributions but I see these same lines trotted out again and again and I am saying… stop! prove it!
I suggest that these claims are made by those who are embarrassed by the great gap between quality of life and innovation in the West and the very proud Arab/Muslim world and that this claim is picked up by the usual sympathizers to the detriment of true understanding. Just because we all pretend you are not really fat does not make you thin nor does it make you healthy and not susceptible to diabetes, heart disease, stroke and the like. You aren’t doing anyone any favors by pretending otherwise. Honesty is the best policy and it is time that we started having uniform objective standards. I think that George W. put this well when he suggested, in a different context, that much of this whitewashing exhibits the “bigotry of low expectations.”
So since the Muslims/Arabs took the land from the Jews, Turkey and Syria and the Levant from the Greeks, etc… you think that these groups are justified in bombing/killing until they get their land back? What are you really saying? One group has a right to be angry and use violence and until it gets what it wants then… we cannot have peace? Should the Greeks insist that their most holy city Constantinople be returned to them? and that until that happens no dialogue between the West and Arab World can take place until this condition is met? Put the shoe on the other foot for a change and see how that fits…
And I strongly disagree that the US has/had “torture chambers.” I realize that there has been a lot of controversy about the three waterboarding cases, but I really cannot stomach comparing a technique that tens of thousands of US soldiers go through every year with the type of torture and killing that is meted out by real genuine torturers along the lines of Saddam and his goons. Big difference between THAT and sleep deprivation and uncomfortable postures. Surely, you can see that difference. And I fully appreciate that MANY disagree with and have very valid reasons for disapproving of US interrogation techniques that were used pre-2006.
[quote=“Ermintrude”]
And don’t be dissing no fred. At least he’d be fun to drink with.[/quote]
Erm, Fred deserves his dissing because of all the dissing he hands out. But I agree that he has “cocktail charisma”.
[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“Ermintrude”]
And don’t be dissing no fred. At least he’d be fun to drink with.[/quote]
Erm, Fred deserves his dissing because of all the dissing he hands out. But I agree that he has “cocktail charisma”.[/quote]
And intelligence. And good arguments.
[quote=“fred smith”]You wrote:
I responded:
So based on the juxtaposition of these two sentences, one with reading comprehension capabilities would, one hopes, understand that “I disagree” is being made in reference to your “predicated on the immense translation projects of Greek to Arabic by scholars centered in Baghdad.” Hard to understand that connection?
I disagree that the Arab Golden Age was “all that” and I challenge the historical revisionists to prove that the Arab World was so crucial to the development of the Renaissance and technological innovation and free thinking in the West. I am not saying there were no contributions but I see these same lines trotted out again and again and I am saying… stop! prove it!
I suggest that these claims are made by those who are embarrassed by the great gap between quality of life and innovation in the West and the very proud Arab/Muslim world and that this claim is picked up by the usual sympathizers to the detriment of true understanding. Just because we all pretend you are not really fat does not make you thin nor does it make you healthy and not susceptible to diabetes, heart disease, stroke and the like. You aren’t doing anyone any favors by pretending otherwise. Honesty is the best policy and it is time that we started having uniform objective standards. I think that George W. put this well when he suggested, in a different context, that much of this whitewashing exhibits the “bigotry of low expectations.”[/quote]
so you disagree the Golden Age was all that, and your argument consists of “no, that’s not true, your turn.” nice one. It’d be nice to see you back up your viewpoint with facts, arguments, patterns, trends that would suggest or lend credence to your “I disagree. Now you rebut.” I’ve posted quite a few paragraphs on name, events, patterns, etc. to bolster my argument. it’s hardly sufficient or perhaps disingenuous for you to merely “disgree” without further exposition. I say the ball is still in your court.
but let’s start here. it sounds like we disagree on the EXTENT of influence or how much we should credit the Arab world. But “so crucial” and “some contribution” are very subjective and vague delineations. On the other hand, I never said it was a “but for” argument. There are things like the European University as a institution, which provoked free inquiry and inquisitiveness (for its day and relatively speaking), which was unthinkable anywhere in the world, arab, chinese or any other high civilisation at that point. That said, I think it’s a silly exercise to now argue, was it 10% versus 40% crucial that the Arabs passed on their knowledge (and built on Greek knowledge) to the West to enable the Renaissance. I would end it at “significant”. Whether you think less or more really is of no consequence to anyone but your followers, I suppose.
and on not being so worried about violent Islam, I think Israel must have missed your cogent memo on that.
So since the Muslims/Arabs took the land from the Jews, Turkey and Syria and the Levant from the Greeks, etc… you think that these groups are justified in bombing/killing until they get their land back? What are you really saying? One group has a right to be angry and use violence and until it gets what it wants then… we cannot have peace? Should the Greeks insist that their most holy city Constantinople be returned to them? and that until that happens no dialogue between the West and Arab World can take place until this condition is met? Put the shoe on the other foot for a change and see how that fits…
And I strongly disagree that the US has/had “torture chambers.” I realize that there has been a lot of controversy about the three waterboarding cases, but I really cannot stomach comparing a technique that tens of thousands of US soldiers go through every year with the type of torture and killing that is meted out by real genuine torturers along the lines of Saddam and his goons. Big difference between THAT and sleep deprivation and uncomfortable postures. Surely, you can see that difference. And I fully appreciate that MANY disagree with and have very valid reasons for disapproving of US interrogation techniques that were used pre-2006.[/quote]
I believe that what happened in the Stone Age should stay in the Stone Age. That’s why I don’t advocate arming the Iroquois so they can take back their ancestral homeland by force but rather that they should accept life as 21st century citizens in a one state solution. On the other hand if your house were being “settled” by someone of Iroquois ancestry I would fully back your right to protect your property.
Be that as it may I’m going to put you down for ‘firmly thinks Coalition of Willing should keep digging.’
As far as whether the U.S. was torturing or just following orders goes we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that:
[quote]The Committee Study of the Central Intelligence Agency’s Detention and Interrogation Program is a report compiled by the bipartisan United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) about the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)'s Detention and Interrogation Program and its use of various forms of torture (“enhanced interrogation techniques” in U.S. government communiqués) on detainees between 2001 and 2006.
The 6,000-page report details actions by CIA officials and findings of the study of the Detention and Interrogation Program. On December 9, 2014—eight months after voting to release parts of the report—the SSCI released a 525-page portion that consisted of key findings and an executive summary of the full report. It took five years and $40 million to compile the report. The rest of it remains classified.
The report details actions by CIA officials, including torturing prisoners, providing misleading or false information about classified CIA programs to the media, impeding government oversight and internal criticism, and mismanaging of the program. It also revealed the existence of previously unknown detainees, that more detainees were subjected to harsher treatment than was previously disclosed, and that more forms of torture were used than previously disclosed. It concluded that torturing prisoners did not help acquire actionable intelligence or gain cooperation from detainees and that the program damaged the United States’ international standing.[/quote]
END ACT I
INTERLUDE: Joe Biden acting like a creep during the Senate swearing in ceremony last week. It starts off borderline but gets bad. On topic because…uh… the U.S. is a key proponent of anti-Islam rhetoric. Should someone like Biden be in the White House?
Some over-the-top gush from the usual gang of idiots:
npr.org/2015/01/07/375544058 … s-senators
What this thread needs now is mercy killing. Either that, or some monkey pictures.
[quote]Some over-the-top gush from the usual gang of idiots:
npr.org/2015/01/07/375544058 … s-senators[/quote]
Looks like a damage control piece, right? Anyone watching the vid thought it was way over the top.
So since the Muslims/Arabs took the land from the Jews, Turkey and Syria and the Levant from the Greeks, etc… you think that these groups are justified in bombing/killing until they get their land back? What are you really saying? One group has a right to be angry and use violence and until it gets what it wants then… we cannot have peace? Should the Greeks insist that their most holy city Constantinople be returned to them? and that until that happens no dialogue between the West and Arab World can take place until this condition is met? Put the shoe on the other foot for a change and see how that fits…
And I strongly disagree that the US has/had “torture chambers.” I realize that there has been a lot of controversy about the three waterboarding cases, but I really cannot stomach comparing a technique that tens of thousands of US soldiers go through every year with the type of torture and killing that is meted out by real genuine torturers along the lines of Saddam and his goons. Big difference between THAT and sleep deprivation and uncomfortable postures. Surely, you can see that difference. And I fully appreciate that MANY disagree with and have very valid reasons for disapproving of US interrogation techniques that were used pre-2006.[/quote]
I believe that what happened in the Stone Age should stay in the Stone Age. That’s why I don’t advocate arming the Iroquois so they can take back their ancestral homeland by force but rather that they should accept life as 21st century citizens in a one state solution. On the other hand if your house were being “settled” by someone of Iroquois ancestry I would fully back your right to protect your property.
Be that as it may I’m going to put you down for ‘firmly thinks Coalition of Willing should keep digging.’
As far as whether the U.S. was torturing or just following orders goes we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that:
[quote]The Committee Study of the Central Intelligence Agency’s Detention and Interrogation Program is a report compiled by the bipartisan United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) about the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)'s Detention and Interrogation Program and its use of various forms of torture (“enhanced interrogation techniques” in U.S. government communiqués) on detainees between 2001 and 2006.
The 6,000-page report details actions by CIA officials and findings of the study of the Detention and Interrogation Program. On December 9, 2014—eight months after voting to release parts of the report—the SSCI released a 525-page portion that consisted of key findings and an executive summary of the full report. It took five years and $40 million to compile the report. The rest of it remains classified.
The report details actions by CIA officials, including torturing prisoners, providing misleading or false information about classified CIA programs to the media, impeding government oversight and internal criticism, and mismanaging of the program. It also revealed the existence of previously unknown detainees, that more detainees were subjected to harsher treatment than was previously disclosed, and that more forms of torture were used than previously disclosed. It concluded that torturing prisoners did not help acquire actionable intelligence or gain cooperation from detainees and that the program damaged the United States’ international standing.[/quote][/quote]
Torture issue aside, I actually agree with Fred. whoa.
[quote=“Ermintrude”][quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“Ermintrude”]
And don’t be dissing no fred. At least he’d be fun to drink with.[/quote]
Erm, Fred deserves his dissing because of all the dissing he hands out. But I agree that he has “cocktail charisma”.[/quote]
And intelligence. And good arguments.[/quote]
Well, he’s clever but his arguments are all too often distorted by ideological bias. Note his conflation of the evils of communism vis a vis Lenin, Stalin and Mao with the supposed “leftism” of Warmists.
So since the Muslims/Arabs took the land from the Jews, Turkey and Syria and the Levant from the Greeks, etc… you think that these groups are justified in bombing/killing until they get their land back? What are you really saying? One group has a right to be angry and use violence and until it gets what it wants then… we cannot have peace? Should the Greeks insist that their most holy city Constantinople be returned to them? and that until that happens no dialogue between the West and Arab World can take place until this condition is met? Put the shoe on the other foot for a change and see how that fits…
And I strongly disagree that the US has/had “torture chambers.” I realize that there has been a lot of controversy about the three waterboarding cases, but I really cannot stomach comparing a technique that tens of thousands of US soldiers go through every year with the type of torture and killing that is meted out by real genuine torturers along the lines of Saddam and his goons. Big difference between THAT and sleep deprivation and uncomfortable postures. Surely, you can see that difference. And I fully appreciate that MANY disagree with and have very valid reasons for disapproving of US interrogation techniques that were used pre-2006.[/quote]
I believe that what happened in the Stone Age should stay in the Stone Age. That’s why I don’t advocate arming the Iroquois so they can take back their ancestral homeland by force but rather that they should accept life as 21st century citizens in a one state solution. On the other hand if your house were being “settled” by someone of Iroquois ancestry I would fully back your right to protect your property.
Be that as it may I’m going to put you down for ‘firmly thinks Coalition of Willing should keep digging.’
As far as whether the U.S. was torturing or just following orders goes we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that:
[quote]The Committee Study of the Central Intelligence Agency’s Detention and Interrogation Program is a report compiled by the bipartisan United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (SSCI) about the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)'s Detention and Interrogation Program and its use of various forms of torture (“enhanced interrogation techniques” in U.S. government communiqués) on detainees between 2001 and 2006.
The 6,000-page report details actions by CIA officials and findings of the study of the Detention and Interrogation Program. On December 9, 2014—eight months after voting to release parts of the report—the SSCI released a 525-page portion that consisted of key findings and an executive summary of the full report. It took five years and $40 million to compile the report. The rest of it remains classified.
The report details actions by CIA officials, including torturing prisoners, providing misleading or false information about classified CIA programs to the media, impeding government oversight and internal criticism, and mismanaging of the program. It also revealed the existence of previously unknown detainees, that more detainees were subjected to harsher treatment than was previously disclosed, and that more forms of torture were used than previously disclosed. It concluded that torturing prisoners did not help acquire actionable intelligence or gain cooperation from detainees and that the program damaged the United States’ international standing.[/quote][/quote]
Torture issue aside, I actually agree with Fred. whoa.[/quote]
Two votes for stay the course then and one for ‘what happened in the Stone Age should stay in the Stone Age.’
Since when is the Medieval period called the Stone Age?
Fred, if you see the Wikipedia page on Islamic Contributions th Medieval Europe, it’s clear that they were significant, especially in terms of maths and sciences. But I doubt they contributed to Renaissance art or humanism, aside fro reintroducing the West to Aristotle.
People in the stone age were actually quite advanced.
As for Islam, it was all downhill after they jettisoned Avicenna’s approach to theology.
Well, then, given that this is EXACTLY what I am saying, I guess that means that you agree with me. That is why I wish in vain that you really would READ and then respond. AGAIN, not discounting the achievements of the Islamic Civilization and, in fact, I am a great fan of much of it culturally and artistically speaking BUT, to me, much of this debate has been distorted by the Third Worldism of the 1960s and 1970s that sought to reshape the achievements of the non-Western world for political, ideological and philosophical reasons. THAT is my issue. To my way of thinking, the Persian aeshetic is the penultimate achievement of man. How much more pro- can you be than that?