Great with pita bread.[/quote]
Which is of course stolen from hungry orphans.[/quote]
Makes it all the sweeter.
Really? Okay, I’ll try to find some more. And I don’t think these reports are unverifiable. You could probably go there yourself and ask people what happened. Too bad the mainstream news reporters don’t do that. The Italian journalist who made The Hidden Massacre found Fallujah residents saying the exact same things that Manning said. That film and her reports were all over the news in Europe, and it forced the US and British government to basically admit publicly that white phosphorus was used in Fallujah, although many think the “strangely burned bodies” she showed in the film were not burned bodies at all, but rather decomposed bodies. I’m not sure if that debate has been sorted out yet or not, but regardless of that, it is pretty clear that the city was largely leveled, house by house, and hundreds upon hundreds of residents were essentially declared combatants and shot in cold blood. Plenty of American soldiers admit to that much.
Which claims by the two American journalists do you dispute? I don’t want to discuss the Italian one on this thread. Besides, there is an older thread about that film.
I still haven’t seen Manning’s short film. If anyone happens to find it, please post a link. I look a bit harder soon.
And none of the journalists make any claims as outrageous as BBQing Iraqi babies. That’s ridiculous. What claims do you think were invented?
No. Call me whatever you like. May I inquire as to why you chose Stalin as a handle?
Not half as ridiculous as you asking us to believe that US soldiers shot two unarmed children under a bed and were stupid enough to leave one of them to tell the tale. 
Those that fail to see how wrong that Fallujah and the whole sham war on terror is concerning, it reminds me a lot of the Neo Nazi’s in Germany who claim that the Holocaust never happened.
Its becoming harder to see any real difference between Saddam and Dubya, apart from the fact that one is still getting away with genocide.
Perhaps they need top look at Al Jazeera’s viewpoint from time to time, it largely differs from Cheney News Network CNN
Suppression and or control of the media, courtesy the US and its crook friends.
[quote=“The Specialist”]It reminds me a lot of the Neo Nazi’s in Germany who claim that the Holocaust never happened.
Its becoming harder to see any real difference between Saddam and Dubya, apart from the fact that one is still getting away with genocide.
Perhaps they need top look at Al Jazeera’s viewpoint from time to time, it largely differs from Cheney News Network CNN
Suppression and or control of the media, courtesy the US and its crook friends.[/quote]
Keep digging your hole. Your credibility lessens with each spadeful you shovel out. But please, less of the thinly veiled neo-Nazi slurs. Its offensive and borderline against the rules.
If slurs are what they’re intended to be. Maybe I really DO remind you of a neo Nazi, in which case you’re even dumber than your posts give you credit for.
On your toes everyone; Sandman has special credibility discernment powers.
It reminds me of the neo-cons, who resort to empty ridicule when faced with facts.
For me. Sorry, I meant “credibility for me.” Everyone else is of course free to interpret what you write and what you link to as they see fit – either rumour and smearing, or reports that have no need to be substantiated because they’re so obviously produced by unbiased and completely objective reporters seeking only truth, or a bit of both. 
This isn’t Fallujah, but it is a recent report from the Sunday Times.
[quote]The Sunday Times March 26, 2006
[b]Iraqis killed by US troops
[quote=“dearpeter”]
Is that verifiable or credible enough?[/quote]
Hala Jaber??? You’re kidding, right?
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“dearpeter”]
Is that verifiable or credible enough?[/quote]
Hala Jaber??? You’re kidding, right?[/quote]
Just to make sure its completely and unequivocally unbiased.
Huh? Anyone with an Arab name is unqualified to report on Iraq? I thought there were supposed to be plenty of Iraqis in favor of the American presence.
Does it work this way? Any Iraqi that says the Americans are well-behaved and things are going smoothly is a straight shooter, but any Iraqi that says otherwise is biased and likely to spread lies.
Anyway, although I expect the Sunday Times has fairly high editorial standards and is unlikely to run a story unless they believe it to be fair and accurate, I will concede that the above report is not airtight. I’ll find something better.
(It’s just a fact of life that us dirty liberals need to work harder.)
Of course not. But when its a damning piece on US presence and alleged US atrocities, it sure causes MY eyebrows to rise.
Keep on keeping on Peter. You post 'em, I’ll read 'em, at least if I haven’t seen them before. I look at the Times most days, so I already saw that one the other day.
Thing is, I’m just not ready to blindly believe what I read in the papers – right OR left. What galls me most is those who believe only one side exclusively. Are there atrocities being committed in Iraq? Name a war – any war – that hasn’t had atrocities on BOTH sides. It’s WAR, for christ’s sake.
Who are more atrocious though? The insurgents who hide in villages with their women and children or the soldiers who have to fight their way into those villages to get the insurgents out?
I envy you your black-and-white world. It must make things so easy for you.
I agree with your reasoning. I don’t trust the papers fully either. It’s damn hard to form any solid opinions on what’s going on in the world today. I certainly don’t have a black and white view of things.
But, I disagree that Iraq is a war. Did the US even declare war? I think it is much more accurately called an invasion.
And I think insurgents will hide wherever they think they will survive. In the case of Fallujah, I agree with Jamail and Manning that there were probably very few insurgents inside when the city was attacked. They were given advance warning, and being insurgents, that is, mercenary/militant types, they would likely find some way of saving their own skins. By the time Fallujah happened, they would be unlikely to think that hiding amongst innocent civilians would help them much.
But the real question is, why does the US think it can somehow get rid of these insurgents? To quote Dahr Jamail again, “According to a recent poll commissioned by the British military, 82% of Iraqis want all occupation forces removed from their country, less than 1% feel occupation forces have improved security, and 45% openly admitted to feeling that attacks against US forces are justified. This is quite similar to what I’ve seen during my 8 months in Iraq as well, aside from the fact that I found a larger percentage (greater than 45%) of Iraqis in support of the Iraqi resistance.”
And I totally agree with his reasoning when he says:
[quote][size=75]Most fighters know when the U.S. is going to launch a new offensive, so they take off. It
There is nothing wrong with using WP as it was used in Fallujah.
So, what’s your point?
That point was that the Italian filmmaker’s reporting, although flawed, was not categorically written off as unbelievable. She had primary footage from Fallujah, so people paid attention, and even the governments of the US and UK admitted things (i.e. white phosphorus) based on her work.
What kind of a world would we live in if we refuse to believe everything in the media? Even Fox News stories have a fair amount of truth in them. I have yet to see any reports demonstrating the the US did not go into Fallujah in a very heavy-handed way. I think the record is quite clear that US forces used nearly their maximum amount of force against a largely civilian target in a ground assult. That was kind of a new thing for the Americans, and the consensus around the world seems to be that it was almost obscene in its arbitrariness. Surely the US decision-makers could have expected a chorus of critics to cry ‘war crimes!’ after such an action.
And their only justification was that “there were hardened insurgents in there.” There was no possibility that such an assult would bring the war to a close thus preventing future violence. Instead, this assault gave the insurgents (and critics around the world) a powerful rallying cry, which was what I was trying to argue earlier on this thread.
One of the ditto-heads said somewhere above that we are just hearing from liberal mouthpieces in the media and not from actual Iraqi people. Well, here’s an actal Iraqi: Faiza Al-Araji, one of 5 Iraqi women visiting the US to plea for US withdrawal (2 others were denied visas, ironically because they had no remaining family members in Iraq-- as their entire families had been killed by US bombing!?!), on the current situation in Iraq:
[quote]I can make a kind of debate. I’m ready to have a debate with the American leaders, to sit with them in front of the American people. I want to hear from them, and I will give them the answers for everything they are talking about, because we have the real story on the ground. After three years of evaluation, I think Iraqis have the right to talk about the evolution of the war, not the American leaders, because we are who are suffering here and we are – we lost the money of Iraq, we lost the souls of Iraqis, we lost the souls of loved ones in Iraq. We have – our kids have been kidnapped. Our neighbors have been killed. We lost everything. But what about the leaders? They are sitting in their chairs, and they have the power. And they did nothing for the Iraqi people to help the Iraqi people. I’m not telling this from my mind. It is facts on the ground.
…the life is horrible for Iraqis now. Iraq now is the hell. It is the land of hell. There is nothing. There’s no electricity. There
And by the way Tigerman, the whole “the way WP was used in Fallujah” argument was already fought and won a long time ago. I’ve reminded you once before and I’ll remind you again:
Us: the US forces used WP directly on enemy combatants in Fallujah!
The Pentagon: no we didn’t! We used it for illumination!
You: no they didn’t! They used it for illumination!
The Pentagon: uh, well, actually we did use it directly on them…but it’s not a chemical weapon!
You: uh, well, actually… blah blah blah… but it’s not a chemical weapon!
Us: According to the Geneva Convention articles on chemical weapons, chemical agents which are used in a way that causes harm directly by their chemical properties (not indirectly, as in the case of gunpowder, in which case the chemical properties cause harm by way of a bullet) are considered chemical weapons and outlawed.
You: Uh, yeah, well those terrorists are really bad guys! They deserve it! Look what they did to those journalists! (Implied: Screw international law! The end justifies the means! War is hell! Deal with it!)
Us: Um, do we dare make a Hitler comparison regarding your rationale? Nah, better not… we’ll be snidely derided for it!
Yes, that really is the point and we can leave it at that. Seriously flawed would be most accurate.
Yeah. Much better to just take the drip-feed news from the embedded reporters at face value and doubt all other reports.
Well, a year on and the N.W.O. experiment that is Fallujah is still ongoing. Here’s an update on this creative approach to building a multi-tier society.
[quote]Fallujah’s Restoration is Far From Reality
By Dahr Jamail and Ali Fadhil, IPS News. Posted July 3, 2006.
One and a half years after the November 2004 U.S. military assault on Fallujah, residents tell of ongoing suffering, lack of jobs, little reconstruction and continuing violence.
The U.S. military launched Operation Phantom Fury against the city of Fallujah–destroying an estimated 70 percent of the buildings, homes and shops, and killing between 4,000 and 6,000 people, according to the Fallujah-based non-governmental organisation the Study Centre for Human Rights and Democracy (SCHRD).
IPS found that the city remains under draconian biometric security, with retina scans, fingerprinting and X-raying required for anyone entering the city. Fallujah remains an island: not even the residents of the surrounding towns and villages like Karma, Habbaniya, Khalidiya, which fall under Fallujah’s administrative jurisdiction, are allowed in.
Security badges are required for anyone wishing to enter the city. To obtain a badge, one has to be a Fallujah native from a certain class. That is, if one is from Fallujah and a government official, a high-class badge of grade G will be issued. Journalists with an X-grade badge will be allowed. Then there are B for businessmen and C for those who have contracts with U.S. military in the city. Last are the R-grade badges, which will not be admitted through the main checkpoint at the west side of the city, and must seek entrance through “second class” checkpoints elsewhere.
Having entered the city through the main checkpoint, the first thing visible is the destroyed homes in the Al-Askari district. Virtually every home in this area has been completely destroyed or seriously damaged.
Rest of story is here.[/quote]
So I guess everyone in Fallujah was a terrorist, so we need to keep treating them like cattle.