Sorry, I don’t quite understand. Am I been not clear? Sorry for that, or could you please kindly explain again. Thank you for your patience.
It is what it is. A good metaphor. In Guhyasamaja, in the section related to entering into union with a consort, it is said that if the consort
is an action seal, a live consort, visualizing deities on her body becomes an actual body mandala practice. But if one is entering into union with a visualized consort, it does not. (Dalai Lama XIV, The Union of Bliss and Emptiness, Snow Lion Publications, New York, 1988, p.73-74.)
Blurred and juggle with terms is what we don’t need here. We are talking about the essence of Tantric and the main idea of it is sex here, no matter students choose to just read, talk, and visualized, it’s all about sex. Not playing chess or studying art.
No, there is no authentic tibetan buddhist teacher doing such things, just as the millions of westerner baby tantrikas are not doing such things. You are simply mistaken.
There may be fakes doing weird things, I don’t know.
Sorry, I don’t quite understand. Am I been not clear? Sorry for that, or could you please kindly explain again. Thank you for your patience.[/quote]
Since most practitioners are not realized, most of the words you read about what happens during empowerments are metaphoric, not literal. For example semen or blood are classic metaphors that mean something else for non-realized practitioners.
[quote=“triceratopses”]It is what it is. A good metaphor. In Guhyasamaja, in the section related to entering into union with a consort, it is said that if the consort
is an action seal, a live consort, visualizing deities on her body becomes an actual body mandala practice. But if one is entering into union with a visualized consort, it does not. (Dalai Lama XIV, The Union of Bliss and Emptiness, Snow Lion Publications, New York, 1988, p.73-74.)[/quote]
This doesn’t have anything to do with establishing whether its a good metaphor or not. It is not a good metaphor for the reasons I stated. I could easily rip apart your practice if I were to examine it and pretend it is a whole, and dismiss the your entire practice because I found one part not up to standard. However to do so would be idiotic. You are allowed to have very good parts of practice and bad parts, without the bad diminishing the good. It is the opposite of the collection of water in a pool analogy.
Again, consort practice is 1 small part. The vast majority has nothing to do with consort practice, the vast majority of it is sadhana, music and ritual dance, how to draw mandalas, as well as the 100s of hours of samadhi it takes to visualize 100+ deity mandalas. You could spend 10 lifetimes studying tantra and still not reach anything to do with consort practice. Your group seems obsessed with sex.
I think it is simply a matter of education. Compared to me, you know nothing on the topic, and yet you still want to impose your view as superior or correct to mine.
Yes, tantra can be misused for desirous sex. Its real purpose is to be used by those who have full renunciation, having realized emptiness directly, to make use of certain energy winds in their body. I’m not lying to you are trying to trick you, that is what it is supposed to be used for.
the Tantric Vajra Vehicle defines “fully qualified masters” as “those who have the ability to bestow a consecration.” However, the nature and essence of the “consecration” bestowed to the disciples is undefined and unspecified.
The four major sects of fake Tibetan “Buddhism” all practice the Vajrayāna. After a student has cultivated for some time, her guru would pick the right opportunity to “bestow a consecration” by “personally transmitting the supreme dharma,” which involves engaging in Couple-Practice Tantra between the master and the student. The ability for a master to “give the secret empowerment” as such is said to make him a good guru.
This standard of a “good” vajra master has no basis in the Buddha Dharma of course. In terms of Buddhist morality, a guru or master who “bestows a consecration” to a disciple by taking her to bed has broken the precept against sexual misconduct. Even if the guru has not taken any real Buddhist ordinations, due to the wrongful nature of the action, he will still have to suffer the retribution in future lifetimes as a consequence of karmic cause-and-effect.
According to the Buddha Dharma, this wrongdoing is a severe one as it has fulfilled all three conditions - “intention,” “expedient device,” and “execution” - of a major transgression. “Intention” refers to the fact that the master deliberately desires and has generated the thought to commit the act; “expedient device” means that the master has made plans to have a sexual relationship with the disciple; “execution” means that the master has carried out his plan successfully.
The Kalachakra Tantra that the 14th Dalai Lama practices is a form of Tantric Vajrayāna too, also known as the Highest Yoga Tantra. It is proclaimed that one can correspond to “the unsurpassed dharma” through the cultivation of the Kalachakra Tantra and consequently attain Buddhahood in a single lifetime. This so-called speedy tantric path to Buddhahood is not only groundless in the Buddha Dharma but also its transmission constitutes the most grievous transgression of deception in the three realms and results in karmic retribution in the Avici hell. This consequence applies to all the other dharma-kings, living tulkus, and rinpoches as well, since even if they do not cultivate the Kalachakra Tantra per se, their practice is nonetheless the sexual Couple-Practice under a different name.
[quote=“iwonder”]the Tantric Vajra Vehicle defines “fully qualified masters” as “those who have the ability to bestow a consecration.” However, the nature and essence of the “consecration” bestowed to the disciples is undefined and unspecified.
The four major sects of fake Tibetan “Buddhism” all practice the Vajrayāna. After a student has cultivated for some time, her guru would pick the right opportunity to “bestow a consecration” by “personally transmitting the supreme dharma,” which involves engaging in Couple-Practice Tantra between the master and the student. The ability for a master to “give the secret empowerment” as such is said to make him a good guru.
This standard of a “good” vajra master has no basis in the Buddha Dharma of course. In terms of Buddhist morality, a guru or master who “bestows a consecration” to a disciple by taking her to bed has broken the precept against sexual misconduct. Even if the guru has not taken any real Buddhist ordinations, due to the wrongful nature of the action, he will still have to suffer the retribution in future lifetimes as a consequence of karmic cause-and-effect.[/quote]
Everything is so mistaken I don’t know where to begin.
Suffice to say, the millions of people being given tantric empowerments are not having sex with the person giving them the empowerment. :roflmao:
Also according to your theory it appears that only women tantrikas can achieve full buddhahood, since it is only they who can practice with the empowerment giver who is typically male. :roflmao:
On a serious note, you don’t accept the tantras as authentic texts taught by the Buddha. This is similar to Theravadins who do not accept the validity of Mahayana texts as being taught by the Buddha. There is a lot of scholarship on the topic you should study it. Tantras were around a long time before tibetan buddhism, being practiced and passed down by many high indian mahayana masters. Maybe you do not accept them either eg. Nagarjuna and his teacher, all of Nagarjuna’s students, Bhavaviveka, Naropa, Buddhapalita, 100s more. They were all the main mahayana lamas and they were all the studying at Nalanda, Vikramshila, etc, the main monastic universities of ancient india.
Sigh… triceratopses, it looks you are having short memory problem.
Do I have to again remind you of your own mentioned: consort practitioners prefer to use girls age between 12 to 20 … etc., etc., Should you save yourself from your really silly laughing to nuts ?!
Throughout the so call, Tantra Buddhism, because their content were contrary to the strict Precepts of Buddhas teachings, it is really impossible for them to be enlightened in the 8th sense. In fact, the whole scope of Tantrism does not leave the conscious mind. Just a big crazy game in their conscious mind – – – to see, hear, aware and understand.
Since When Nagarjuna and his students became Mahayana " Lamas" ?? Ha ha ha ha!! Here we go again, the typical tricks of Tibaten Tantrism’s counterfeiting, faking into Buddhism Bodhi Way.
Exactly, you’ve borrowed my words and feelings when I first saw your earnest posts and writings!
Do you truly know the origin of your religion?
It’s from India alright.
If one studies into the doctrinal connotation and ritual manifestation, it is even more evident that Tibetan “Buddhism” essentially derives from[color=#0000FF] Hindu Shaktism.[/color] In the Brahman culture of ancient India, sex and religion were tightly connected.
[quote=“triceratopses”]Suffice to say, the millions of people being given tantric empowerments are not having sex with the person giving them the empowerment. :roflmao:
Also according to your theory it appears that only women tantrikas can achieve full buddhahood, since it is only they who can practice with the empowerment giver who is typically male. :roflmao: [/quote]
Come on, you should have known better if you had practiced it as you stated.
There are public and secret initiations unless you’re not invited by your guru
Million participators are for the public show of course.
Please do not blur the subject, gender is not the issue to Buddhahood here, it’s about the sexual practice itself.
A German expert, Victor Trimondi, specialized in TB
trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-06.htm KALACHAKRA: THE PUBLIC AND THE SECRET INITIATIONS “The ritual consists of a public part and a secret part, staged by the participants [color=#0000FF]behind closed doors[/color].[color=#0000FF] Pupils with little prior knowledge or even people with none may participate in the public initiations.[/color] In contrast, [color=#0000FF]the secret initiations are only accessible for the chosen few….[/color]”
This is an extra post, I still need to deal with your early posts.
Thank you.
[quote=“iwonder”]Sigh… triceratopses, it looks you are having short memory problem.
Do I have to again remind you of your own mentioned: consort practitioners prefer to use girls age between 12 to 20 … etc., etc., Should you save yourself from your really silly laughing to nuts ?! [/quote]
What does that have to do with anything you said and the absurdities they lead to?
[quote]Throughout the so call, Tantra Buddhism, because their content were contrary to the strict Precepts of Buddhas teachings, it is really impossible for them to be enlightened in the 8th sense. In fact, the whole scope of Tantrism does not leave the conscious mind. Just a big crazy game in their conscious mind – – – to see, hear, aware and understand.
Since When Nagarjuna and his students became Mahayana " Lamas" ?? Ha ha ha ha!! Here we go again, the typical tricks of Tibaten Tantrism’s counterfeiting, faking into Buddhism Bodhi Way.[/quote]
Noone cares what you think and I really don’t care what your inept ideas of nirvana and buddhahood may be. There is no point making assertions unless you provide reasoning. You tried to earlier it seems you have given up.
I called Nagarjuna etc “high indian mahayana masters”, they practiced tantra heavily particular Guhyasamaja.
As I explained earlier their aims and explanations are completely dissimilar. By definition they cannot be the same thing or have much to do with each other.
You might as well argue that the arhats around at the time of the Buddha were actually Hindus, since they both practice samadhi.
Unless you have something substantial to prove your point, you should stop asserting it senselessly.
[quote=“Buddhism”]Come on, you should have known better if you had practiced it as you stated.
There are public and secret initiations unless you’re not invited by your guru
Million participators are for the public show of course.
Please do not blur the subject, gender is not the issue to Buddhahood here, it’s about the sexual practice itself.[/quote]
I am not talking about the mass public demonstrations, those are considered blessings not empowerments. I am talking about the millions of sincere practitioners who have undertaken privately the highest form of empowerments in private retreats with their close teacher–none of them have committed any of the acts that were previously stated.
Yes you seem very obsessed with talking about sex, whereas in reality consort practice is 1 small part that extremely rare individuals partake in for specific reasons. As long as you continue to assert that it is somehow common place or central in any way, rather than just being an extremely rare and minor part, you will be explicitly lying and deceiving people with some negative motivation in mind.
So come now, amidst the 1000s of amazing tibetan commentaries on emptiness renunciation bodhichitta and pramana, please come and obsess about sex sex sex sex sex sex sex sex. It illustrates clearly what is most meaningful to you.
Plenty of mass public demonstrations are in fact empowerments. They are abhiseka and establish are karmic link with the attendees and guru which renders them disciples and enables them to begin certain tantric practices.
[quote=“Confuzius”]Plenty of mass public demonstrations are in fact empowerments. They are abhiseka and establish are karmic link with the attendees and guru which renders them disciples and enables them to begin certain tantric practices.
that’s just a fact.[/quote]
Depends on the practice… some are specifically blessings called empowerments by most people eg. Vajrayogini some are actual empowerments like Kalachakra. However when the Dalai Lama gives mass empowerments of for example Kalachakra to 1000s of people at a time, where local politicians and business people attend for political reasons, you cannot really call it an empowerment since most of the people there don’t have any idea what is happening, or what to do afterwards. It functions much more like a blessing which as you said the purpose of the event is to create a strong karmic link in the future, not to actually educate them and enable them to practice anything.
An empowerment establishes a link between the bestower and receiver, enabling the latter to perform tantric practices.
You may think there is little value to it, but your assessment is 10000% irrelevant. These mass empowerments have been performed for over a thousand years.
there are other, higher levels of empowerment, but to not call these massive ones empowerments would be to change the meaning and function of the sanskrit term abhiseka based on…um, your own opinion.
No, perhaps you don’t understand how vows etc works. The teacher can say and do whatever they are saying and doing, that is only part of the process. The other part is the student must be fit to actually form the vows etc in their own minds. Obviously the latter does not happen in mass “empowerments”, only the teacher is playing his/her role.
In this way it is not an actual empowerment, just as the giving of bodhisattva vows is not actually a giving of bodhisattva vows when the vows do not form in the student’s mind. Nevertheless the student’s mind is blessed to some degree just for at least hearing the words involved with the generation of bodhichitta and bodhisattva vows.
A Chinese song named “Ｓｉｓｉｔｅｒ Ｄｒｕｍ＂ describing a Tibet little girl looking for her missing muter elder sister for years in vain. Day by day, nothing positive but only distant heavy deep sound of the drum came from the boundless sky. Years later, the little girl came to the age of her elder sister, finally she knew that her sister died because of during the practice or ceremony of empowerment, they need instruments made of corps. Best is from a virgin female.
The sound was from the drum using her elder sister’s skin, peeled off by instrument producer.
Tantric practice seems quite like little girl. Kalu Rinpoche picked 13-14 years old girl as sex mate every years.
Buddha was an apostle of peace and universal love, averse to bloodshed and forbidding the taking of human and animal life. He repudiated all outward ceremonies and offerings, preaching salvation through efforts of the mind and perfection of heart.
what satanists do?
People who using euphemistic language in favor of nobody but themselves is quite strange. I just wondering why Dalai Lama and his entourages don’t use their skin to produce a drum, they are enlighted, it should be more powerful. But be sure that peel their skin off alive like the little girl, instead of stop breathing.
[quote=“zeusma”]Years later, the little girl came to the age of her elder sister, finally she knew that her sister died because of during the practice or ceremony of empowerment, they need instruments made of corps. Best is from a virgin female.
The sound was from the drum using her elder sister’s skin, peeled off by instrument producer.
Tantric practice seems quite like little girl. Kalu Rinpoche picked 13-14 years old girl as sex mate every years.[/quote]
[quote=“iwonder”] Sigh… triceratopses, it looks you are having short memory problem.
Do I have to again remind you of your own mentioned: consort practitioners prefer to use girls age between 12 to 20 … etc., etc., Should you save yourself from your really silly laughing to nuts ?! .[/quote]
One can tell by people experience when a typical deceitful treacherous person, being caught from doing bad things,
his/her first reaction is always as such: laugh, laugh, laugh, ugly laugh … in order to disguise the desperado’s panic and true color.
[quote=“iwonder”]One can tell by people experience when a typical deceitful treacherous person, being caught from doing bad things,
his/her first reaction is always as such: laugh, laugh, laugh, ugly laugh … in order to disguise the desperado’s panic and true color.[/quote]
You’re quite delusional. I simply find it funny that zeusma implies that tantrikas including myself murder children to make use of their skin for instruments, and yet s/he remains with unbanned status. Some of the mods in this place are a little… something. :roflmao:
Also you forgot that your quote was totally offtopic in the first place… you are not very good at this.
I respect everyone in this forum who are knowledgeable especially you, please do not take this personally. Respection is what Buddha teachs us ( 禮敬一切眾 生), this is also, I believe, comply with most poeple the very basic behavior to be a decent person, isn’t it?
I am not accusing you " murder", niether raping on minors as I stated before, the fact I like to share is :
Under the law of inversion in Trantra, the low was from now on inverted into the high. Bad deeds instantly change into good deeds.
How can tenet of Trantra goes so much contradiction to humanist system of values.
This is the behavior of tantrikas, this is what you’ve stated. You slur me and my hard-working friends directly.
[quote]Under the law of inversion in Trantra, the low was from now on inverted into the high. Bad deeds instantly change into good deeds.
How can tenet of Trantra goes so much contradiction to humanist system of values.[/quote]
It’s a difficult topic, and it’s not unique to vajrayana, it is also part of standard mahayana madhyamaka prasangika emptiness: the fact that things possess no findable characteristics that delineates them or establishes them as what they are.
Most people will want to say that feces possesses findable characteristics that make the feces harmful to humans, due to the causes and conditions that produced it.
The whole point of prasangika and the endless logical proofs they give tries to show that no such findable characteristics exist anywhere in the world. This is not to say that feces is not harmful to most people. Things exist and function as well as depend on causes, but they do so only through being established by mental labelling. But, this needs to be studied very closely.
