The Holocaust

[BiggusDickus]

@tando

why Jewish victims are treated specially compared to Romani victims? Maybe more Jewish victims than Romani victims, but they may be said to be comparable. They are Jewish victims and “the others”, though. Because Jews are more organized?

They had a State behind them. It made Ben-Gurion’s negotiating position considerably stronger.

[the_bear]

Roma do not organize and avoid confrontation with authorities. They expect to be persecuted where ever they go. That’s what it means to be Roma. They are a unique people.

Prohasar man opre pirende - sa muro djiben semas opre chengende

[Andrew0409]

There is a general distrust and even hatred of Romani people Even today. I don’t think they have any desire to have their own state. Jews generally do, Israel is there God given homeland in their belief.

[Andrew0409]

@the_bear

They expect to be persecuted where ever they go.

It seems some of that is on them, my understanding is they tend to turn to petty crime for profit. Although I have very limited experience with Roma people and it’s mostly what I’ve been told from other people in Europe.

[tando]

So, the persecutions to them are not racial but policing.

[Andrew0409]

@tando

So, the persecutions to them are not racial but policing.

No it’s definitely racial/ethnic. (Not sure how to define Romani people) They are definitely looked down upon and discriminated against. They tend to keep to themselves and don’t allow outsiders into their lives. They also are usually nomadic. They have a stereotype of being carnival people living in camps in the outskirts of cities. Also fortune tellers. Which is the few Roma people I came across. They sometimes ask if you want your fortune read when you’re around Europe. The other major stereotype for them is pickpockets and thieves.

[the_bear]

They live on the margins of society as nomads often do. While some petty crime goes on this is exaggerated in the media and by authorities as Roma make handy scapegoats.

[Andrew0409]

I suspect the petty crime is also an exaggeration of the extent of the issue. I’ve never actually seen or encountered any pickpockets and yet I’m always told by Europeans to watch out for them wherever I go. The only kind of these crimes I actually seen or heard of in Italy at least, is from other Italians especially the youth, or Africans, also Albanians. Never actually heard of any gypsies doing anything.

[DrewC]

Can @tempogain split this Holocaust discussion off into a separate thread? It’s worth having, but probably not here.

[the_bear]

Good call.

Go the Black Caps!

[Gain]

@the_bear

I just want to point out Dawud is correct in his assertion that “The Holocaust” generally refers only to the slaughter of European Jews by the Nazis, it’s also known as the Shoah. There are some who argue the definition should include Gypsies, Gays etc, but that is a minority position.

This is my understanding as well. The Holocaust = the Shoah.

@Dawud

To commemorate “the Holocaust” is to elevate Jewish deaths (and thus present-day Jewish political clout which insists on such commemoration) over other groups, including present-day Palestinians who are the victims of present-day Jews.

And I want to point out that the Holocaust stands out to you because you guys are from regions that were involved in the Holocaust. It doesn’t stand out to me, for example, beyond the fact that it’s more famous for its sheer scale.

The same goes for Stalin and Mao. Of course they are less discussed in the West because one happened in Russia and one in China. They would of course be more relevant in countries that used to be/still are in Russia and China’s spheres of influence.

[Andrew0409]

Maybe it’s different in Europe. But schools don’t do a good job at all teaching about the holocaust or the 2nd world war in general in the US. Nearly all of my knowledge is from personal reading, videos, etc.

[geajvop]

@the_bear

They live on the margins of society as nomads often do. While some petty crime goes on this is exaggerated in the media and by authorities as Roma make handy scapegoats

The Hero in my ahem ‘pocket novel’ - ahem cough cough - is an Irish Traveler-Italian Roma Gypsy. I know that sounds made up but its actually true. He is an absolute legend too.

The Pecker Dunne Part 1

[crusher]

@bojack

The Holocaust stand out is because one, it happened in the geographic heart of Western civilization, a tradition defined by changes in Judeo-Christian ethics. It happened in the heart of the old Holy Roman Empire, and as an integral part of the outcome of WWII marked perhaps the last major fork in the development of the West.

Two, it happened in relatively modern times. The slaughter of those who were political enemies of the Nazis reached it peak roughly 75 years ago (Mao’s crimes were more recent, however).

Last of all, it differs from Mao’s or Stalin’s crimes because the Nazis only industrialized the slaughter of Jews after it became clear to Hitler that the war was lost. Neither Stalin nor Mao slaughtered political enemies in their millions because it was the equivalent of an enraged, frustrated father kicking to death the most powerless member of his family, but that’s exactly what Hitler did.

The Holocaust was perverse on multiple levels, which is a big reason why this teacher’s denial is beyond offensive.

"Scorched Earth " policy Hitler called it. He also wished for the total annihilation of all his own people ,infrastructure , economy and absolutely everything.He believed his own people should also suffer a total annhilation, as in his opinion it was their lack of an “Iron will” that Germany lost WW2.

[the_bear]

@crusher

He also wished for the total annihilation of all his own people

Yeah, you’ll need to provide some corroborating evidence for that. First I’ve heard of it.

[crusher]

@the_bear

@crusher

He also wished for the total annihilation of all his own people

Yeah, you’ll need to provide some corroborating evidence for that. First I’ve heard of it.

Then you know little about WW2.

[geajvop]

@the_bear

First I’ve heard of it.

I was going to make a smart quip and say ‘have you heard of WWII’? but @crusher beat me to it. The whole thing hardly bears thinking about really though does it

[shiadoa]

@geajvop

The whole thing hardly bears thinking about really though

I see what you did there

[geajvop]

I actually didn’t do that at all, in the woods.

(there was something about bears pooping in the woods earlier,which is also something that doesnt bear thinking about)

Also I am sore with you cause your snipe on my pocket novel got more likes than my pocket novel

I outed myshelf as a romani traveller idiot and homophobe, and for next to zero likes

[shiadoa]

@geajvop

Also I am sore with you cause your snipe on my pocket novel got more likes than my pocket novel

Takes years to hone those sniping skills