not 2 weeks straight,but she did it again later the next week.
I guess she had it together enough not to assign blame.
Good luck!
It is hard not to take it personally.
[quote=“gary”][quote=“Fortigurn”][quote=“gary”]This girl has a long history you don’t know. Maybe her parents take stuff from her all the time. This act of taking away the pencilcase. What it means to her. What the pencilcase means to her. Who knows.
Whatever the case, it’s likely she feels much more isolation, rejection, pain, and abuse than the average Chinese kid.[/quote]
I don’t think there’s any necessity for these extrapolations. She’s a pubescent girl, which explains about 90% of her behaviour.[/quote]
I see. And voila, the average persons understanding of what is personality. 
I could almost cry.[/quote]
Gary, it’s really not worth speculating about deepseated psychological trauma as a result of allegedly abusive behaviour, and a supposedly battered and bruised psyche. This is all guesswork, and deeply disrespectul to both the girl and her parents.
A little bit of Ockham’s Razor and a little bit of common sense should both be applied first. Then we can move on to the more exotic and exciting ideas like past-life counselling.
[quote=“energy”]I’ve had the same problem without the taking away stuff. I just ask them a question about the lesson that she should and did know.
A minute later she was crying. I felt better when her friends were looking at her like ‘huh’. No one knew. A week later I asked her and she said she didnt know why either…she just felt like it.[/quote]
Important part in bold. This is a pubescent girl, and everything is normal. Nothing to see here, move along please.
[quote=“Fortigurn”]Gary, it’s really not worth speculating about deepseated psychological trauma as a result of allegedly abusive behaviour, and a supposedly battered and bruised psyche. This is all guesswork, and deeply disrespectul to both the girl and her parents.
A little bit of Ockham’s Razor and a little bit of common sense should both be applied first. Then we can move on to the more exotic and exciting ideas like past-life counselling.[/quote]
Hmm I’ve never been a fan of reductionism. Applying it to a person is not my idea of fun. We could try a exploration of Occam’s Razor in another thread. Ever really read Occam or any criticism from any philosopher?
Think about this. Let’s say you walk into the store and all of a sudden you see an orange. You pick it up. Why? This question could already fill books without end.
Why someone cry’s is infinitely more complex. It is not simple and cannot be reduced so easily.
Pubescence? Well, want to start a new topic about hormones and genetics? Bring it on.
I suppose I could ask, when a person crys, yells, or becomes violent. Do you care?
If you’re not at least minimally intelligent and qualify for Mensa, why suggest I don’t know anything? Disagree? Fine. That’s cool. I want you do that. Just show some intelligence.
Since the topic is about psychosis, at least we could start talking about what it means to be psychotic. We could start with Freud or anyone else.
But to dismiss this and treat a living person like nothing. Many of you complain about Taiwanese all the time. Ever start to consider the why? What makes people Chinese or Taiwanese? If you want to help Taiwanese to not be like they are, you could start by helping schools. Schools are helping to produce the people and behaviors you see everyday.
[quote=“gary”][quote=“Fortigurn”]Gary, it’s really not worth speculating about deepseated psychological trauma as a result of allegedly abusive behaviour, and a supposedly battered and bruised psyche. This is all guesswork, and deeply disrespectul to both the girl and her parents.
A little bit of Ockham’s Razor and a little bit of common sense should both be applied first. Then we can move on to the more exotic and exciting ideas like past-life counselling.[/quote]
Hmm I’ve never been a fan of reductionism. Applying it to a person is not my idea of fun.[/quote]
This is not reductionism. I was simply suggesting that there is a simpler and more likely cause for this than leaping to the conclusion that this child has suffered long term domestic abuse from both parents over the years, and treasures her pencil case to the point that its withdrawal causes her an emotional reaction.
Applying wild guesswork which borders on libel to people, is not my idea of fun.
Yes. I took two years of philosophy at university.
Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity. This paragraph is not relevant to the situation at hand. Why people cry is not necessarily ‘infinitely more complex’. It isn’t necessarily complex at all.
[quote=“Fortigurn”]This is not reductionism. I was simply suggesting that there is a simpler and more likely cause for this than leaping to the conclusion that this child has suffered long term domestic abuse from both parents over the years, and treasures her pencil case to the point that its withdrawal causes her an emotional reaction.
[/quote]
You’re aware that Occam’s Razor originated out of reductionism? Perhaps I am leaping a conclusion. Saying there is a simple reason is no less of a leap. Let’s try this, offer a theory of cognitive psychology you believe in. If it’s one that has Occam’s Razor as its foundation, name it. If it’s possible or necessary, make it up.
[quote=“Fortigurn”]Yes. I took two years of philosophy at university.
[/quote]
Ok. We can start with philosophy. That was one of my majors and I still read or think about it everyday.
Crying is also not necessarily simple though it seems like you want it to be. Any reason? 
You’re aware that Occam’s Razor originated out of reductionism?[/quote]
It did not. It was the intelligent observation of an astute mathematician and logician, who was also a devout Christian holding beliefs completely antithetical to philosophical reductionism. It is a methodological principle which was later extrapolated to different forms of reductionism. It was discovered in the 20th century that this principle is a fundamental principle by which the physics of the universe operate (all things take the path of least resistance).
[quote]Perhaps I am leaping a conclusion. Saying there is a simple reason is no less of a leap. Let’s try this, offer a theory of cognitive psychology you believe in. If it’s one that has Occam’s Razor as its foundation, name it. If it’s possible or necessary, make it up.
Ok. We can start with philosophy. That was one of my majors and I still read or think about it everyday.[/quote]
I’m not interested in a discussion of philosophy or psychology. I simply believe you shouldn’t leap to complex conclusions about the intimacies of other people’s lives when you have absolutely no idea of who they are and have never even met them. It’s a methodological fallacy which I would not expect of anyone who had taken either philosophy or psychology. Making such statements on a public forum is simply in bad taste, apart from anything else.
I did not say that crying is necessarily simple.
[quote=“Fortigurn”]It did not. It was the intelligent observation of an astute mathematician and logician, who was also a devout Christian holding beliefs completely antithetical to philosophical reductionism. It is a methodological principle which was later extrapolated to different forms of reductionism. It was discovered in the 20th century that this principle is a fundamental principle by which the physics of the universe operate (all things take the path of least resistance).
[/quote]
Fair enough. Occam or Occam’s razor is not necessarily reductionism. Would you say Occam is nominalist? What do you have to say about how nominalism or how it relates to this topic? Or would you say nominalism or Occam’s razor has nothing to with this topic?
[quote]Perhaps I am leaping a conclusion. Saying there is a simple reason is no less of a leap. Let’s try this, offer a theory of cognitive psychology you believe in. If it’s one that has Occam’s Razor as its foundation, name it. If it’s possible or necessary, make it up.
[quote=“Fortigurn”]I’m not interested in a discussion of philosophy or psychology. I simply believe you shouldn’t leap to complex conclusions about the intimacies of other people’s lives when you have absolutely no idea of who they are and have never even met them. It’s a methodological fallacy which I would not expect of anyone who had taken either philosophy or psychology. Making such statements on a public forum is simply in bad taste, apart from anything else.
[/quote]
I see. You said earlier “this is all guesswork, and deeply disrespectul to both the girl and her parents.” Perhaps you could tell me how common sense or mentioning Occam’s razor is any less disrespectful or guesswork?
I did not say that crying is necessarily simple.[/quote]
True. I am not necessarily against Occam’s Razor. If we are applying it, which direction should we go?
We could start with the question, why does a person cry.
What do you think of Bertrand Russel? Here’s a sentence from the Problem of China
[quote]
The worst failure of filial piety, however, is to remain without children, since ancestors
are supposed to suffer if they have no descendants to keep up their cult.
[/quote][/quote]
What do you think of this? Would you say filial piety is at play among parents and their children, teachers and their children? Would you eliminate it in the question of the crying child?
I am not interested in a discussion of nominalism. Occkham’s Razor applies to this topic insofar as its warning that entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity, is relevant to this topic.
Because it makes no such judgments about people’s characters or behaviour as you have made (basically accusing her parents of systematic long term child abuse).
The direction already indicated by at least three posters in this thread - this is behaviour to be expected from pubescent girls.
Extremely little.
I do not think of that. I have more important things to think about.
Because it makes no such judgments about people’s characters or behaviour as you have made (basically accusing her parents of systematic long term child abuse).
[/quote]
I see. So you believe common sense makes no such judgements about people’s characters or behaviors?
What do you think of Bertrand Russel? Here’s a sentence from the Problem of China
What do you think of this? Would you say filial piety is at play among parents and their children, teachers and their children? Would you eliminate it in the question of the crying child?
Extremely little.
I do not think of that. I have more important things to think about.[/quote]
I see. Ok, it seems like we should talk about puberty. A girl crying when her pencilcase is taken away, do you believe it’s more likely that a person suffers from abuse or they’re the happest girl in the world?
Tell me something about what you think is going on in her brain. If you want to mention neurotransmitters or anything you want, go for it.
A answer about whether you believe common sense makes no such judgements about people’s characters or behaviors would be nice too.
That is not what I said, but I do not believe it is common sense to make any such judgments when you have absolutely no knowledge of the people involved in a situation.
This is the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy (you suggest only two possible causes for a phenomenon which may have more than two causes).
She’s a pubescent girl. The rest is best left up to those who know her. I see no value in speculating.
I am assuming that those who are implying that L cries is because she is a teen, i.e. hormones and pmsing.
How about this. In this culture it isn’t uncommon for a girl to cry to get what she wants because the idea of a woman being very forthright and vocal about her personal space,feeling,and emotions is looked down upon. Perhaps she was just trying to get her pencil case back and the way she knows how to get what she wants is to cry. End of story.
Dr. Z, maybe it would be good to let her cry and when she does allow the class to give her attention for it. I know it’s a big time waster, but it seems like she is desiring attention, so just have everyone give it to her. She’s gonna get embarassed sooner or later as her classmates will grow sick of her antics.
Best of luck.
This is the logical fallacy of the false dichotomy (you suggest only two possible causes for a phenomenon which may have more than two causes).
[/quote]
Ok. Mention another cause. Or say something about causality.
[quote=“Fortigurn”]
She’s a pubescent girl. The rest is best left up to those who know her. I see no value in speculating.[/quote]
No value in speculating. No interest in talking about puberty?
How about this. Is this girl important? Do you want to help the girl or Dr_Zoidberg? What’s your suggestion?
[quote=“Namahottie”]How about this. In this culture it isn’t uncommon for a girl to cry to get what she wants because the idea of a woman being very forthright and vocal about her personal space,feeling,and emotions is looked down upon. Perhaps she was just trying to get her pencil case back and the way she knows how to get what she wants is to cry. End of story.
[/quote]
Ok. Why cry? Why not start by first saying, could you please return my pencilcase? Pick any other girl in the class and put her in the same situation. How would they react differently? How do you explain this difference of behavior?
I am saying it is typical for pubescent girls to exhibit emotional behaviour inappropriate to the situation, and not have any particular reason for it (as she says she does not). This is perfectly natural, and extremely common. It is of course a difficulty for a teacher in a class situation, but it does not need wild speculation about long term domestic abuse and object fixation.
Yes, that is a very rational observation also. This may or may not be a part of the issue, we would need to know the girl concerned.
[quote=“gary”][quote=“Namahottie”]How about this. In this culture it isn’t uncommon for a girl to cry to get what she wants because the idea of a woman being very forthright and vocal about her personal space,feeling,and emotions is looked down upon. Perhaps she was just trying to get her pencil case back and the way she knows how to get what she wants is to cry. End of story.
[/quote]
Ok. Why cry? Why not start by first saying, could you please return my pencilcase? Pick any other girl in the class and put her in the same situation. How would they react differently? How do you explain this difference of behavior?[/quote]
IMO girls here are not trained to be vocal about their needs and for her to request it would be stand apart from the crowd. No one wants to do that. I have had quite a few girls who are like that. I just allow them to cry and try to talk to them later. But in the end I’m not their mom, who is cementing the ideas of what a woman should be. Teaching in Taiwan isn’t like teaching at home. You have to understand their perspective on things in order to get the result you want.
I have mentioned another cause, a cause far more likely than years of domestic abuse.
No value in speculating, and no interest in discussing the psycho-physiology of puberty.
Yes the girl is important. Yes, I want the girl to be helped. I have already given my suggestion to Dr_Zoidberg in this thread, and applauded certain suggestions by others.