… I do not believe it is common sense to make any such judgments when you have absolutely no knowledge of the people involved in a situation.[/quote]
Neither do I. Is common sense the best approach? Let’s say we’re talking about only Taiwanese and Taiwan. Do you love or hate it? Neither? Would you sway in the direction that you’d like to keep Taiwan the same or change it a bit? Should we be applying Taiwanese or American common sense, or something else?
Yes the girl is important. Yes, I want the girl to be helped. I have already given my suggestion to Dr_Zoidberg in this thread, and applauded certain suggestions by others.[/quote]
Ok. Let me ask you. Do you care enough to give another suggestion or to explore this topic further? 
I am saying it is typical for pubescent girls to exhibit emotional behaviour inappropriate to the situation, and not have any particular reason for it (as she says she does not). This is perfectly natural, and extremely common. It is of course a difficulty for a teacher in a class situation, but it does not need wild speculation about long term domestic abuse and object fixation.
[/quote]
Inappropriate. I see. Why choose this word over any other? Why not say special, unique, singular, curious…
[quote=“Fortigurn”]
Yes, that is a very rational observation also. This may or may not be a part of the issue, we would need to know the girl concerned.[/quote]
Surely we could find out more without knowing the girl. Let’s say crying is the way this girl knows how to get her case back. Why is it that she knows this method rather than any other like yelling?
[quote=“Namahottie”]
IMO girls here are not trained to be vocal about their needs and for her to request it would be stand apart from the crowd. No one wants to do that. I have had quite a few girls who are like that. I just allow them to cry and try to talk to them later. But in the end I’m not their mom, who is cementing the ideas of what a woman should be. Teaching in Taiwan isn’t like teaching at home. You have to understand their perspective on things in order to get the result you want.[/quote]
And what is the result you want? Interested in raising kids to be like the Taiwanese you say today? Probably not. Interested in helping them become like you? What would you like kids to become?
You could say I am interested in kids becoming free. For that to happen, it may be necessary to outlaw forced schooling or the bind between parent and child.
Yes, that is a very rational observation also. This may or may not be a part of the issue, we would need to know the girl concerned.[/quote]
Surely, without knowing the girl, we can be more definitive.
I’m glad we agree on something.
Yes.
Yes the girl is important. Yes, I want the girl to be helped. I have already given my suggestion to Dr_Zoidberg in this thread, and applauded certain suggestions by others.[/quote]
Ok. Let me ask you. Do you care enough to give another suggestion or to explore this topic further? [/quote]
Whether or not I give another suggestion, or choose to explore this topic further, is not an indication of how much I care. It is a logical fallacy to assert this (non sequitur).
Because in this situation, that behaviour is inappropriate. It is comprehensible, understandable, forgiveable, natural, and even predictable, but it is not appropriate to the situation.
There you go speculating again. I choose not to join you.
I’m glad we agree on something.
Yes.[/quote]
Then apply some common sense. Whatever you choose, how do you think it would affect the girl? Do you have an ideal, goal, direction, principle, or method you’d recommend for raising children or girls?
What do you think of girls or women? What do you think of women everywhere? In China? Do you place any significant in some movies by Zhang Yimou? Do you believe he was attempting to express some quality of Chinese women? Do you believe it has anything to do with resistance and Chinese virtues?
What do you think of Chinese common sense? Do you want to change it in anyway?
Of course.
[quote=“Fortigurn”]Because in this situation, that behaviour is inappropriate. It is comprehensible, understandable, forgiveable, natural, and even predictable, but it is not appropriate to the situation.
[/quote]
Good to hear you saying it’s understandable, comprehensible, and forgiveable.
Why would you first say that behavior is inappropriate instead of first saying it is understandable?
Fortigurn, how about this. What do you have to say about this?
Um, Gary, all this throwing about of psychological jargon and attempting to enter into debates over philosophy (e.g. Bertrand Russell, nominalism, reductionism) seems to me to be way way :offtopic:
Suggesting the girl may possibly have deep-seated trauma behind this was fair. It could be the reason. Fortigurn’s reply that your suggestion was guess work was also fair. And his suggestion that she’s a girl going through puberty with all the complex psychological processes related to this period of time makes pretty good sense.
Why keep trying to make it a debate of philosophy? You want to discuss philosophy, why not start a relevant thread in the OT forum?
I’ve made my suggestion: Dr. Z should make it a point to reinforce that he cares for the student first, and then explain that his actions towards her was not because he didn’t care for her, but because he is trying to help her and everyone else in class learn.
If the girl is suffering from trauma as a result of abuse as you suggestion, what course of action would you suggest Dr. Z take? How would you handle things in light of your position?
There was the suggestion that the girl was going thru puberty. And I believe I was the one insisting puberty is a complex psychological process. And one worth investigating.
Most people when they hear, she’s going thru puberty. How are they going to react? Do people tend to think it’s biological? Is there not a tendacy in current studies of evolution and biology to believe that it is in our genes?
Within this one act of the girl crying so much is at stake. Culture, beliefs, and education are a few of the things in question. Chinese, Taiwanese, or human. How important is all of this stuff to all of you? Do you consider yourself a humanist? Any better word? Well then, why not be philosophical. Are we not asking what is going on with that girl? This question what is. Is that not the question of philosophy itself?
And where did psychology come from?
So I do think about this stuff everyday. And I’m willing to spend the rest of my life on questions like this. What’s going on with this girl? Are you willing to put in the time?
That was what I intended to do from the beginning, except the girl keeps running out of the school as soon as class ends, so there has yet to be an opportunity for me to speak with her outside of class.
The laoban has spoken to her a few times, but to no affect. The girl is obviously feeding on all the attention she is getting, and wants to milk it for all it’s worth.
Don’t let her run out. Excuse people from the class in small groups, and leave her to talk to you. Perhaps you can hand back papers and have people leave when they get their paper.
Maybe give everyone a little “bribe” just before you dismiss class to influence things a little. I like to give out those Andes mints after kids take a particularly long test. If you get them at Wellcome, or better yet, one of those “Welfare” discount grocery stores, it doesn’t cost much.
A person can’t be too disagreeable after you just gave them some chocolate.
Basically I’m saying set a positive tone as the class leaves so that it won’t seem ominous that you make her stay behind.
Best of luck to you. Hopefully giving her some positive attention will help your class and perhaps even give her something she desperately needs in her life.
I have. Common sense does not include tacitly accusing her parents of years of child abuse.
[quote]Good to hear you saying it’s understandable, comprehensible, and forgiveable.
Why would you first say that behavior is inappropriate instead of first saying it is understandable?[/quote]
Because it is inappropriate. If you had read my posts, you would have seen that the first thing I said was that it is understandable.
Yes and yes. I lived for 18 years with a girl (my sister), and worked for 3 years at a girls school. That’s my experiential justification.
Fortigurn, how about this. What do you have to say about this?[/quote]
I already had my say, three times. I’m sorry if you missed it.
I see. I’d recommend some reading in the philosophy of science. Recent stuff in epistemology is good too. Feminist epistemology is also well worth looking into. Then get back to me in a few years.
Welp.
This is to the women reading this. I’m surprised few women have said much. Let me ask this of you: do you think any of your emotions or behavior can be reduced to mere biology and hormones? If you aren’t aware, there’s even debate about whether PMS is biological. Look into it.
Think of any time you might have experienced similar feelings. Why not say something?
I understand there’s a huge gap in how men and women understand each other. Maybe in pre-agrarian clans, it was a bit different. Then again, matriarchy was very common then.
While you continue to share your feelings only with other women, the gap is going to remain.
Now, I broke out my Positive Discipline book just for you, Dr_Zoidberg, because the minute I read your post, it seemed to me like you’ve got a bad case of manipulative crying on your hands.
The main idea behind the Positive Discipline series is that bad behavior stems from four major mistaken goals: attention, power, revenge, and helplessness.
Now, applying what I know about positive discipline, here are some suggestions for dealing with these things…
If she’s seeking attention, then the best thing to do is walk over when she is crying, touch her shoulder and give her a tissue. Then if you need to, ask that she stay after school and tell her that you’re concerned about her feeling upset. Let her talk. If she denies it, then tell her what you’ve noticed in her behavior, “Susie, you might not feel that there’s a problem, but I’ve noticed that you are avoiding me in class and look sad. What is going on?” (don’t ask “why” as it seems accusative and invites excuses rather than an assessment of the situation). Offer to bring the class in on it to discuss how to resolve the problem. If she agrees, the students are pretty well-tuned to how they would feel in her shoes and they’re probably sick of it too. If she doesn’t then tell her that you assume this means she has worked out how to resolve it herself and that you will not be seeing her outbursts any more.
If she’s seeking power, give her a limited choice so she feels like she has control over the situation and so you can still resolve her problem - “Susie, I see you’re upset. Would you like to tell me about it now or wait until after school.”
If she’s seeking revenge, then call her on it. “I know you must still be upset with me over taking your pencil box away. Do you have any ideas what we can do the next time to make sure something doesn’t distract you from class?”
If she’s feeling helpless because she doesn’t think she’s a good student and being punished makes her feel even worse, let her know that what you did is a classroom rule and that you have confidence that she has learned from her mistake and will do better next time.
The book also suggests that getting the students together and talking about when they cry and how they deal with it and how they can help others who are crying. You could even give them situations like, “Your friend thought they were going to get a high score on a test, but they didn’t so they start crying. What would you say to them to help them feel better?”
You might even go over the rule for confiscating things and to see if they understand why you feel its important enough to make a special rule about it and perhaps see if they can think of a consequence that works for all of you. My students have had some suggestions that worked better than the ones I had thought up for doing things in the classroom. You’d be surprised at how much more they follow rules that they have a hand in discussing and establishing.
Thanks very much for your help ImaniOU. I’ll be sure to apply it the next time I have that class (Friday), and in future should such a situation arises again.
FYI: I saw her at the school today, and she seemed back to normal.
Now the psycho teen bitch from Hell is begging her parents not to send her to this school because of the horrible way the foreign teacher treats her. :loco:
I was told to talk with her. Of course, she doesn’t speak English and I don’t speak Chinese, so I had to arrange with the CT for the three of us to sit down together.
Last night the three of us do just that. The CT, far from interpreting what I’m saying for the girl, left shortly after I started speaking. I called him back, but he just ignored me and kept going.
I later ran into the little rat-weasle CT as we were both leaving. “So, do you think she understood anything I said?” I asked.
“No,” he said.
“THAT’S WHY I WANTED YOU THERE!” I said angrily.
“Oh, it’s ok,” says flaky, “just tell me what you said and I’ll tell her.”
WHAT A FUCKING IDIOT!
I think your real problem is the CT. After all the dust settles, he’s the one you’ll still have to be working with.
I won’t argue with that. The previous CT was good, and I can’t imagine this shit carrying on beyond the first night if she hadn’t left.
This guy’s a flaky, effeminate 19 year old who could almost pass for a Thai lady-boy. And to make matters worse, he doesn’t listen.
[quote=“Dr_Zoidberg”]I won’t argue with that. The previous CT was good, and I can’t imagine this shit carrying on beyond the first night if she hadn’t left.
This guy’s a flaky, effeminate 19 year old who could almost pass for a Thai lady-boy. And to make matters worse, he doesn’t listen.[/quote]
Your CT is flaky and doesn’t listen? Why is your boss hiring people like this? Have you considered looking for a better job in a better school?