Damn that Dr. Sun and his dream that Han Chinese vote. What the hell was he think? [/quote]
Sun obviously wasn’t thinking about only letting those who “love Taiwan” (i.e. be like Hoklo supremacists) vote. Maybe Sun should take some lessons from almondbiscuits, although Sun can never hope to rehabilitate his status as Founding Father. The Founding Father will be decided in a “love Taiwan” rhetorical match between the trinity of Chen Shui Bian the son, Lee Teng Hui the father, and Wang Ben Hu the holy weasel
zeug, many facts from the period between 1945-1949 help to understand why Chinese where called that:
the crops where being redirected to China, to help the war against communists, leaving very few to eat in the island (hence the “thieving”)
the soldiers who where sent first hand to Taiwan where not much of a prime… I think that CKS only thought of Taiwan as a strategic source for food, so he only sent some unprepared troops with very few equipment (maybe comparing to what the Japanese Imperial Army had, they where “inferior” and “dirty”).
[quote=“mr_boogie”]zeug, many facts from the period between 1945-1949 help to understand why Chinese where called that:
the crops where being redirected to China, to help the war against communists, leaving very few to eat in the island (hence the “thieving”)
the soldiers who where sent first hand to Taiwan where not much of a prime… I think that CKS only thought of Taiwan as a strategic source for food, so he only sent some unprepared troops with very few equipment (maybe comparing to what the Japanese Imperial Army had, they where “inferior” and “dirty”).[/quote]
And what did I say again?
You have yourself given the special circumstance in the 1945-1949 period that explains why such dehumanizing characterization of the Chinese people is in general wrong. Yet there are TI/ers who continue to spout all these characterizations as a bill of rationales for TI, and they still describe not only Chinese in the mainland, but also WSR in Taiwan, in this way.
Some segment of the Taiwanese population were anti-Japan. Some were pro-Japan. I surmise that it breaks down by age group, with the youth much more pro-Japan, precisely because of the later implementation of the Japanization campaign. There is a perfectly good explanation. The older people welcomed guang fu and promptly died off of old age. The youths grew up as Japanese and had serious identity issues and they passed on their anti-Chinese prejudices by associating the KMT’s faults as a governing party with an entire ethnicity.
You can search out Chinese TI blogs on the internet, if you’re looking for sentiment of pro-Japanese, anti-Chinese feeling towards 1945 KMT.
The question is really why do Hoklo supremist who promote TI still continued to use a false comparision of Japanese colonialization period to post 1945 KMT on Taiwan, as a motivator to their base?
It is this divisive politics within the Han on Taiwan, that prevents any real political progress to be made on Taiwan.
Shouldn’t TI leaders, especially those in the Hoklo Supremist camp, be seeking a broad base platform, instead of needling the issues of 228 and KMT worst than the Japanese lingo-ism.
[quote=“almondbiscuit”]Mick’s point 1: pg 58: “by most accounts, most Taiwanese welcomed the reinstitution of Chinese rule following the Japanese surrender”. this is really common knowledge for most twnese people - that guang fu was welcomed by the Taiwanese. prolly only discussed on english websites!
point (2) there was definitely many who enlisted to fight for japan - the indoctrination among a section of the youth - male youth - was successful. but what does this say about your claims of japan-pride among Taiwanese people today?
can you prove any evidence to link the two (i.e. deny the fact that Taiwanese welcomed retrocession) when historical evidence proves that Taiwanese were initially happy about the mainlanders returning?
more to the point, do you have any hard evidence that this eagerness to enlist proves that japanese-pride exists among Taiwanese de jure independence supporters and in fact, is the basis for hatred of Chinese imperialism? and that it exists even today? (i mean other than citing the President’s mother speaking in Japanese )[/quote]
Yes most (not all) accounts, most (not all) Taiwanese welcomed the reinstitution of Chinese rule. Lets not play the percentage game, zeugmite’s last few posts I think have been intelligent and to the point.
It's the DPP that wants to drag up the past and put emphasis on 228 and CKS. In doing so remember this,
Without WWII and the defeat of Japan by the allied forces (of which CKS was a part of), Taiwan would still be under Japanese rule.
Without CKS fighting the communists Taiwan would be a part of China now.
Either way, Chen shui Bian would not have been elected in free and democratic elections.
So , rename an airport, remove his stautes and call him a tyrant and this or that.
The fact remains, CKS is and will be an important person in the histroy of Taiwan.
CKS was also pivotal to the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Act in the USA, so Taiwan culture and language could be further oppressed as Taiwanese learn to post in fluent English.
Actually your disconnect is somewhat silly. Because shortly after retrocession the Chinese Civil war continued and drained more resources from Taiwan, which caused economic hardship on Taiwan.
Not to mention the USA was a less than supportive ally when they had no stomach to continue a prolong land campaign on the mainland after WWII.
This result of course in instability in the region, which could be illustrated as 228 in terms of Taiwan.
Shortly after 228 Formosan intellectual try to do a power grab with their written demands. LTH in this period joined the CCP, betting on the collapse of ROC already.
Aren’t these examples clear indications that Formosan of the time might have welcome the KMT initially, but when a power vacuum appeared, some were more eager than others to exploit it. Like the Japanese before them the KMT were more than happy to let the Japanese sympathizer leave the island. Like the Japanese the KMT had their white terror to ensure the esblishment of ROC on Taiwan.
So unlike your improper uses of the “Butterfly effect” in a historical context, one can actually do a comparative study of the KMT and Japanese rule on Taiwan to discern if the modern political lingo-ism used by the Green is historically accurate or some distorted version of history to motivate their base.
If you speak to the previous generation on the dissatisfaction with the KMT or WSR in general, it is that they perceive an unfair advantage was given to them in the new society they established on Taiwan. Some are real, some are pure fabrication.
However, unique in Taiwan politics is the continuation of the victimization in public discourse by a segment of the population that is no longer victims by any stretch of the imagination.
Just look at the behavior of CSB and family. Instead carrying their rise in society with dignity, it is pock full of incident where they claim to be victims. Poor baby missed dinner one night….
It’s hard to believe and see so many educated adults here spending all their time (days…., months, … or even decades later) delving on the past of what was happening then in Taiwan. Maybe they are satisfied to see their arguments and counter arguments being posted here and everywhere. But does it achieve anything?
If it’s from TI hardcore addicts, even if you accidently kill a stray dog in a car accident, they will continue to twist and turn as if there is a huge massacre being carried out.
It’s from neutral or pro-China alliance, what they are trying to explain is a bit of understanding from TI hardcores on the status of Taiwan, but unfortunately it’s unlikely there’ll ever be a compromise. With the present DPP government lacking in moral obligation to settle the Taiwan issue, it seems that nothing, short of a bloody war can really settle the issue once and for all.
Good grief, another typical AC post… Big freaking deal if they change the names on stamps, companies, airports or anything else. Yeah, it’s pretty much a waste of time but that’s all the legislature seems to do anyway. I thought the airport name change was very appropriate. I could care less about stamps. I’ve been to government sponsored sporting events here where several hundred participants had to bow to a portrait of CKS before the events begin. Give me a break… Who says there is nothing here that needs to be undone??? I personally wish they would also get rid of the name R.O.C. and call this place Taiwan, whether it is a part of China or not. It has nothing to do with independence. Of course, everybody wishes the DPP could accomplish something of substance along with these symbolic but trivial things, however that appears highly unlikely…
[quote=“Mick”] Without CKS fighting the communists Taiwan would be a part of China now. [/quote] Yeah, this is true. And without CKS Taiwan could very well be a member of the UN today.
[quote=“Mick”] The fact remains, CKS is and will be an important person in the histroy of Taiwan. [/quote] And good or bad, the same is true with A-Bian. And for both of them there will be those who view them as heroes and others who view them as villians.
[quote=“TaipeiDawg”][quote=“Mick”] Without CKS fighting the communists Taiwan would be a part of China now. [/quote] Yeah, this is true. And without CKS Taiwan could very well be a member of the UN today.
How does one view history properly when one decides that CKS is the same as a butterfly, as almondbiscuits does, to the incredulity of all? Whatever CSB did, good or bad, as far as I know nobody is trying to erase him from history. That’s what TI/ers want about CKS when they finished calling him an immoral dictator. They want to erase him. They want to erase the history of Taiwan’s connection to mainland China, hence CKS was a butterfly, hence China did “nothing” in World War II, hence Taiwan was “never” a part of China, and most shameless of all, hence Taiwanese history “began” 400 years ago, which is patently false whether you are Taiwan-centered or China-centered, but apparently not if you are Hoklo-centered.
As I pointed out… the retrocession did happen in a very bad way. And, honestly speaking, had the Japanese discovered oil in Manchuria, and there would be no need to attack the US - which would make a lot of difference in the world we know today.
And I personally believe that what the DPP wants is to put the real CKS into history… not to ban him…
OMG bowing to a portrait of CKS and forced to speak mandarin. Then having a handle that is ghetto English. Is there no justice to be had on Taiwan?
I wish TI leadership would do something better with my tax dollars. God only know how revolting it must be to have to look at a picture of CKS when money changes hand on the island.
The reason why it really is a total waste of ROC time and money is because, when the KMT get back in power, guess what going to happen, a complete reversal of what the DPP accomplished.
Won’t that even be a better use of my tax dollars…
What can be easily done by one political party can be easily undone by the next political party.
I especially enjoy reading the news where the ROC postal union actually rejected the change, but for whatever reason the DPP appointed heads of postal system suddenly changed the meeting date and time to discuss these changes.
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