The U.S. 2008 Primary Candidate Election Thread

Chewycorns, “the waitress philanderer” is now making a stand against telecom immunity on the floor of the Senate. As if sexual shinanigans were anything to define a candidate by in this day and age - I have a webpage or two with a list of rather horny Republicans in office if you’d like to press THIS particular issue!

Anyway, to my point:

Whose Stimulus Makes the Grade

[quote]George W. Bush: B-minus. The president gets extra credit for signaling flexibility on his roughly $145 billion package and for not insisting on extending his tax cuts, which made no sense as stimulus and would have doomed its chance of passing.

A tax rebate – the White House has floated $800 per individual – is a good approach. Bush loses points, however, for excluding those without income tax liability, even if they pay hefty payroll taxes. Points off, also, for failing to extend unemployment benefits. In efficiency and fairness, both are exactly backward. As Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke explained, “If you’re somebody who lives paycheck to paycheck, you’re more likely to spend that extra dollar.”

Bush says tax incentives for business investment must be a significant part of the package. But such breaks didn’t have nearly the positive effect anticipated after they were adopted from 2001 to 2003; the Congressional Budget Office found the impact of those provisions to be “relatively modest”; Moody’s Economy.com put it at 27 cents for every dollar spent.

Barack Obama: A-minus. I criticized his previous tax plan, but Obama is at the head of the class with an intelligently designed, $120 billion stimulus plan. He would speed a $250 tax credit to most workers, followed by another $250, triggered automatically, if the economy continues on its sour path. Obama would direct a similar rebate to low- and middle-income seniors, who are also apt to spend and could get checks quickly. One demerit: Obama omits any increase in food stamp benefits, which Moody’s estimates would have the greatest bang for the buck, $1.73 for every dollar spent.

John Edwards: B-minus. Edwards gets points for handing in his paper early – in December, he issued a $25 billion stimulus proposal (plus $75 billion more if needed), including important help to states to avoid cutting Medicaid rolls. But like Hillary Clinton (see below), he would spend too much money on programs – investing in “green collar” jobs, for instance – with too long a lag time to make them an effective stimulus. Edwards’s grade goes down because he also hasn’t explained how the $75 billion would be spent.

Hillary Clinton: C-plus. Clinton, too, raised the issue early, then turned in a faulty first draft with a $70 billion stimulus plan that didn’t provide much immediate stimulation. It included a $25 billion increase in the program to help low-income Americans with heating costs – an excessive amount (the current program is under $3 billion) that probably wouldn’t kick in until next winter. Even worse was her housing plan, including a five-year freeze on subprime mortgage rates that could produce higher interest rates and reduce liquidity.

Four days later, Clinton said she would immediately implement a $40 billion tax rebate plan she had put in reserve in her first draft. Fine, but overall, the Obama plan devotes a far greater percentage to spending that is more likely to jump-start the economy.

John McCain: D-plus. The senator should have his plan sent back with “Did you read this assignment?” scrawled in red ink. There’s a respectable argument that stimulus isn’t needed, wouldn’t be effective and could be counterproductive. But the normally straight-talking McCain doesn’t make it. Instead, he proposes permanent tax cuts – cutting corporate rates, increasing investment breaks, eliminating the alternative minimum tax – masquerading as a stimulus plan.

Mitt Romney: D. Romney’s plan is way too big ($233 billion) and badly constructed (most of the stimulus goes to business breaks, his individual tax credits don’t go to those who need them most, and his huge, long-term tax cuts would harm growth if not paid for). You don’t have to be a Harvard Business School grad to understand that encouraging savings is not stimulative.

Mike Huckabee: D-minus. Huckabee understands economic anxiety better than economic principles. The only way his sketchy proposal could stimulate the economy is by scaring Americans into consuming now, before his Fair Tax takes effect.

Rudy Giuliani: Incomplete. His position is too internally contradictory to grade. The former New York mayor told ABC’s George Stephanopolous that “permanent reductions have a bigger impact in stimulating an economy,” then said of the Bush plan, which has no permanent cuts, “If it stays where it is, it’s a good idea.” [/quote]

Greatest Washington experience? The Neil Kinnock wannabe, the waitress sandwich philanderer, and the philanderer? You can’t compare those clowns with Clinton. In my opinion, experience in government does matter.[/quote]

If experience matters, I don’t see why comparisons aren’t appropriate. For the record:

  1. Joe Biden has served in the US Senate for 35 years, from 1973 to present.

  2. Chris Dodd served in the US House of Representatives for 6 years, from 1975 to 1981, and has been serving in the US Senate from 1981 to present, for a total of 33 years to date in the US Congress.

  3. Bill Richardson worked for Republican Congressman Bradford Morse from Massachusetts, then as a staff member for Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and on congressional relations for the State Department under Henry Kissinger. He later served in the US House of Representatives for 14 years, and was appointed the US Ambassador to the United Nations by Bill Clinton in 1997. He served as US Secretary of Energy from 1998 to 2001, and has been the Governor of New Mexico since 2002.

I’d say all three have significant experience in the public service.

Dennis Kucinich is out now.

Pity…I liked seeing pictures of his wife.

Jackie and Dunlap Talk To Elizabeth Kucinich…she has some kind of accent…may be a Brit…not too sure.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Dennis Kucinich is out now.

Pity…I liked seeing pictures of his wife.

Jackie and Dunlap Talk To Elizabeth Kucinich…she has some kind of accent…may be a Brit…not too sure.[/quote]

He’s been out since the Iowa Caucus. In fact, I got yelled at by some old foggie in Chi-town for not supporting him. Hummp! I’m for the GOP this year.

Mc Cain’s moma cappin’ dat GOP ass

:laughing:

[quote=“gao_bo_han”]
If experience matters, I don’t see why comparisons aren’t appropriate. For the record:

  1. Joe Biden has served in the US Senate for 35 years, from 1973 to present.

  2. Chris Dodd served in the US House of Representatives for 6 years, from 1975 to 1981, and has been serving in the US Senate from 1981 to present, for a total of 33 years to date in the US Congress.

  3. Bill Richardson worked for Republican Congressman Bradford Morse from Massachusetts, then as a staff member for Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and on congressional relations for the State Department under Henry Kissinger. He later served in the US House of Representatives for 14 years, and was appointed the US Ambassador to the United Nations by Bill Clinton in 1997. He served as US Secretary of Energy from 1998 to 2001, and has been the Governor of New Mexico since 2002.

I’d say all three have significant experience in the public service.[/quote]

Gao_bo_han,

Go back and read my message. I refer to those three as clowns and claim that Obama has no experience. And, correct, me if I’m wrong, the above-mentioned three (excluding Obama) are second-tier candidates are they not? Furthermore, all of them have some history of clown-like behavior IMHO. For all their combined years in the Senate, they sure don’t seem like they have a lot of common sense.

I mean Mr. Biden, despite his years of experience in the Senate, plagiarized a speech from former UK Labor leader and current EU bureaucrat Neil Kinnock in 1987, and started out his presidential campaign this time with a nightmarish gaffe, describing Barack Obama as the first mainstream African-American politician that is “clean” and “articulate.” :unamused: By saying this, he sort of implied that most African American politicians are not clean and articulate. In my opinion, that is quite “race” unfriendly, is it not? Not something one would expect from such an experienced Senator in a party that supposedly values diversity. Then again, some Senate Democrats have never been that enlightened about race, have they? Robert Byrd, for example, said:

Furthermore, in a previous post you asked about neoconservatives. I mentioned you should read “Henry M. Jackson --A Life in Politics,” about Senator Scoop Jackson (D) from Washington State. If you decide to read that fine book, do read page 177 , which discusses Jackson’s enemies within his own party. One of the people Jackson despised was (Bill Clinton mentor) Senator William J. Fulbright of Arkansas, whom Jackson saw as a reactionary on economic and social issues and a “dove” on foreign policy. Jackson, one of the strongest supporters of Israel to ever serve in the Senate, also disliked Fulbright’s anti-Semitism:

[quote=“Senator William J. Fulbright, Senator from 1945 to 1974, on a trip to Poland while an Oxford student in 1928”]

The squalid, filthy Jewish villages in Poland. Truly our animals are better fed, cleaner, and probably as intelligent [/quote]

Chris Dodd? I wouldn’t let my daughter near the man. Clown-like behaviour? Yes sir.

[quote=“Hartford Courant”]

Dodd and Kennedy were also reported to have made a ‘human sandwich’ with a waitress at La Brasserie, another Capitol Hill restaurant. The report had it that Kennedy threw the woman on Dodd, who was slumped in a chair, and then jumped on top of her. She was said to have run screaming from the room." [/quote]

Bill Richardson? Didn’t have that spectacular a time as Energy Sec, did he? :laughing:

And in 1991, I said I would never want to teach kindergarteners because they were creepy little brats.

Good thing we’ve got Chewycorns here to prove that no one ever changes so you can use things they said over sixty years ago to prove what kind of person they are today.

[quote=“ImaniOU”]And in 1991, I said I would never want to teach kindergarteners because they were creepy little brats.

Good thing we’ve got Chewycorns here to prove that no one ever changes so you can use things they said over sixty years ago to prove what kind of person they are today.[/quote]

Biden copied Kinnock’ speech after serving in the Senate for 14 years (he was 45 years old in 1987) and said those things about Obama after serving almost 35 years (he was 65 years old in 2007) :unamused: .

Fulbright said those nasty things about Jews as a 23-year old Rhodes Scholar. Furthermore, his record as a Senator was quite anti-Israel. For example, check out the Foreign Relations Committee hearings (1963) he held on foreign lobbies. He also said “Israel controls the (US) senate”. :unamused: I’d venture to say he held the same view in 1974 as he did in 1928. Hell, I’d venture to say he carried these views until his death in the mid 1990s.

Byrd said those horrible things about African Americans as a 28 year old (1945), only 14 years before he became a Senator (1959) and eight years before he became a member of Congress (1953).

May I ask how old you were in 1991 (when you thought kindergarteners were creepy)? :In yours 60s? In your 20s? Didn’t think so. :smiley:

According to the wiki article on Biden, he had used Kinnock’s material several times in the past, and always given him credit. He failed to do so for one speech, which Dukakis’ political operatives used to effectively discredit Biden’s campaign.

You also wrote:

One racially insensitive gaffe is not enough to discredit a lifetime of service in the Senate. I have trouble believing you disagree.

Christ almighty man, Byrd wrote that in 1945, at a time when many white Americans of whatever party agreed with him. It’s pretty pathetic when Republicans roll out Byrd quotes as evidence of Democratic “racism.” Not that I’m calling you a Republican. You’re Canadian, no?

As for the anti-Semitic stuff from Fulbright, written in 1928, you’re really reaching here, aren’t you? Maybe you can dredge up some quotes from the 19th or 18th centuries next. It should be entertaining, but I think you’re going to have a heard time convincing anyone that the Democratic Party is full of a bunch of racists.

Not going to bother repeating the allegations. Which is what they are by the way, allegations. Serious allegations at that, because the woman in question was apparently not consenting. If that was the case, she should have called the police and pressed charges. Otherwise, what’s that Hitchens quote? What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence (or something like that).

Can’t argue with that.

I don’t understand how an adult could say such vile things about other human beings no matter what the prevailing attitudes were in the age they said them in and it not reflect at least somewhat on their character.

If you are raised to believe something that is echoed in the sentiments of the people around you, how could you be held responsible for such. It’s when people are exposed to other viewpoints that fit a healthier mindset (whatever that might be) and still refuse to even consider them.

It drove me crazy all the people who wore shirts that said, “No one’s born a racist.” No one’s born being able to speak any particular language either, but through their environment, they adopt a particular one (except for the ones with parents militantly insistent on having little polyglots who wind up not having any first languages and a whole string of third languages instead).

If someone has no choice but to listen to racist rhetoric for all of their formative years from everyone around them without any exposure to any other view, they will certainly be one.

I was raised in a church that taught me non-Protestants were bad people who turned away from God and were going to be punished for eternity for it. And for the first 14 years of my life, I believed them. Granted it’s not a 23-year-old Rhodes scholar espousing racial inferiority in non-whites, but until I was exposed to people from other backgrounds, that was the only message I got. Would that make me a horrible person for believing it, spook? If I hadn’t met people from other religions or belief systems, I might still be an adult who believed such.

If you are led to believe those who are different from you are inferior or ignorant, then how willing are you going to be to listen to them when they tell you your views are wrong?

Besides, isn’t it the expectation of a politician to espouse the views of the people who might vote them into an office? Isn’t that why most politicians flip-flop on their views depending on who’s listening?

Bill Clinton endorsed Barack Obama in 1992: youtube.com/watch?v=eMlrSG1xb5k

Where? I didn’t hear Obama’s name at all in that video clip.

When he said “We have got the courage to change. We need a new approach. The same old experience is not relevant. You can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience. My experience is rooted in the real lives of real people. And it will bring real results if we have the courage to change.”

That could have been written by Barack Obama.

Or they might share the same speech writers. Not unheard of in political circles.

Opps there it is–Obama is projected winner of SC Primary

Man this race, no pun intended since I’m not a Clinton, is getting to be fun… :laughing:

[quote=“reztrop”]When he said “We have got the courage to change. We need a new approach. The same old experience is not relevant. You can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience. My experience is rooted in the real lives of real people. And it will bring real results if we have the courage to change.”

That could have been written by Barack Obama.[/quote]

But you posted:

There’s a big difference between endorsing someone and “could have been written”…

I was being sarcastic. :slight_smile:

A real endorsement for Obama came from Caroline Kennedy today. :bravo:

Senator Edward Kennedy is endorsing Obama. Imagine what kind of message that sends to Hillary, especially coming from a veteran senator and Senate colleague with years of experience under his belt.

Ed Kennedy can endorse Blue Ribbon beer and the stock still ain’t gonna rise… :laughing: