The ugly Hoklo

From todays Taipei Times taipeitimes.com/News/editori … 2003358173

[quote]Playing the `ethnic division’ card

By David Min 敏洪奎

Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007, Page 8

Advertising Public debate in Taiwan has taken on a strange tone in recent years. Some topics that clearly have nothing to do with ethnicity and are only related to certain individuals or parties are repeatedly described as “creating ethnic divisions.”
Examples of this include the debate over who was responsible for the 228 Incident, the question of the Chinese Nationalist Party’s (KMT) stolen assets and the recent effort to do away with certain reminders of dictator Chiang Kai-shek’s (蔣介石) rule.

In addition, pan-blue politicians and academics closed ranks recently to criticize Legislative Speaker Wang Jin-pyng (王金平) for questioning whether a small Mainlander elite should rule Taiwan. This highlighted how ridiculous the ethnic tensions claims have become.

Wang’s questions concerning whether it is appropriate for a small elite from an ethnic minority to govern over an ethnic majority were clearly directed at a small elite group of no more than a few dozen people.

He was definitely not talking about any entire ethnic group, yet he was still disparaged for his comments and accused of creating ethnic tensions.

Following this argument, criticizing any person or clique from any ethnic group could be said to create ethnic tensions.

Say that you don’t like the voice of some Aboriginal singer. Suddenly you’re creating ethnic divisions and “agitating ethnic conflict.”

Those responsible for the 228 Incident were a group of high-ranking, military and political leaders.

Even if some of the ordinary soldiers who carried out the massacre are still alive, there is little interest in tracking them down and taking them to court.

The Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) and pan-green groups do not argue that ordinary Mainlanders, either at the time of the incident or now, should bear responsibility for the incident.

How can politicians possibly claim the debate over what happened in the 228 Incident incites ethnic conflict?

Ironically, those who accuse others of creating ethnic divisions by discussing the 228 Incident seem to be implying that today’s Mainlanders are accomplices in the massacre.

Why else would they get so bent out of shape every time someone so much as bring up the question of who ordered the massacre?

As for the KMT’s stolen assets, they are all under the control of the party’s central leadership.

Average Mainlanders, even those who are KMT members, do not own any of those assets, not even a small share.

The Mainlanders who own small shops and noodle stands, the ones who are minor public officials or police, receive not the slightest benefit from those assets.

Even if the DPP government gets every last cent back, it will not affect the vast majority of Mainlanders. It is ridiculous to claim that a debate over retrieving stolen KMT assets will create ethnic rifts.

Even for Chiang’s descendants it must be difficult to deny that he had a dark side or that he never abused his power.

The vast majority of Taiwanese, regardless of ethnicity, have a realistic view of Chiang. Chiang is not an idol worshiped by all Mainlanders, so saying that removing Chiang statues incites ethnic conflict is an obvious distortion of the truth.

Mainlanders remember how inept governance by Chiang and his family ruined China, how he turned China into a military state and how his actions eventually forced millions of soldiers into fleeing to Taiwan and becoming a rootless generation.

The older generation of Mainlanders have passed down this knowledge to the younger Mainlanders. The movement to bring Chiang down off his pedestal may stir up strong emotions in the average Mainlander, but it does not stir up feelings of ethnic tensions.

Only two motives can explain why reasonable people would take issues that are clearly unrelated to ethnicity and say it is dangerous to debate them because they will stir up ethnic conflict.

First, amid the constant finger-pointing and arguing between political parties, politicians are perhaps inclined to blindly throw out any argument to defend themselves. Politicians may therefore be using ethnicity as a shield.

“Continue your attack against me,” they seem to threaten, “and you will be creating ethnic divisions and agitating ethnic conflict.”

Second, politicians may seek to stir up a sense of crisis and truly cause tension between different ethnic groups in order to secure fierce loyalty toward a single party or person.

In this case, their claims of ethnic tensions about to erupt constitute a scare tactic: “Can you really afford not to choose a certain president?”

If these are the true motives of politicians and academics who so eagerly accuse others of creating ethnic rifts, then this plan of theirs to kill two birds with one stone is neither enlightened nor moral. They are the ones who are trying to create ethnic rifts.

Recently, Taiwan’s “good fortune” has been a popular phrase for certain politicians.

If everyone could approach important issues honestly and stop using people’s emotions as a tool by stirring up a sense of crisis, that would indeed be Taiwan’s good fortune.

David Min is a political commentator based in Taipei.

Translated by Marc Langer

[/quote]

For such a non topic that some posters have implied this subject to be it is covered almost daily in the newspapers. I wonder for those commenting on this subject to what extent you agree with David Min’s analysis. Totally, partially or not at all?

David min has some very good points.

The average WSR will not suffer one bit, if the KMT is stripped of its ill-gotten gains.

The average WSR will not suffer one bit, if the statues of peanut go. (Most are gone already)

The average WSR will not suffer one bit, if a commission is set down ot look into 2-28 and the human rights abuses during martial law.

However, some - especially old leaders will suffer, so they are using the ethnic card, IE claiming that the 3 actions above will be directed against all WSR.

David Min point is a hyperbole on the issue. Wang Jin Ping comment was not restricted to just the WSR that are in leadership position in the KMT. It was a general comment target to all of Taiwan to further argument the reason why he, a BSR, should become president.

The 228 issue is also an incorrect analysis. Because why is the holiday not focused on civic duty of all ROC citizens paying taxes. It was a BSR that broke the law in the first place. The point of the holiday is political in the sense of blaming the WSR and the KMT party. If it were truly a non-ethnic holiday then the lawbreaker that started the problem would have also been the focus as a primary cause of 228.

Once again all the points that David brings up are to weaken the KMT, one of the few parties on Taiwan that allows WSR a political voice on Taiwan.

By suggesting taking away KMT money and allowing a holiday that blames the KMT solely for 228, marginalizes all WSR on Taiwan. What he is suggesting is the disenfranchisement of WSR on Taiwan.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]

By suggesting taking away KMT money and allowing a holiday that blames the KMT solely for 228, marginalizes all WSR on Taiwan. What he is suggesting is the disenfranchisement of WSR on Taiwan.[/quote]

:loco:

So WSR = KMT? That’s some…interesting…logic. Nice loophole you invented there - every time someone criticizes the KMT, you can blame the accuser of racism against WSR.

Disassociating the two major parties from particular ethnic groups would be a good idea for this island. Maybe someday it’ll happen, but not anytime soon.

Quentin,

I think you need to revisit my original post. I’m complaining about a KMT member making racist comments.

David’s argument doesn’t address this issue of sub-ethnic tension, instead he goes off on a tangent on justifying why the DPP should continue it strategy of weakening the KMT outside the normal practice of fielding politicians seeking public office. It is an interesting opinion, but his argument is not compelling for the simple reason he’s addressing a larger topic but only touching upon a few facets of the issue.

He paints an incorrect picture that if the KMT is weakened that the average WSR won’t be affected.

However, you already concurred with my position, since you don’t believe the DPP is going to select a WSR as a standard bearer for the presidency, is my original rebuttal to David’s comment incorrect that the KMT is a the only party willing to give WSR a political voice?

I didn’t say the KMT = WSR, since LTH and Wang Jin Ping had/have a political voice in the KMT.

The thread is about the Hoklo desire to disenfranchise WSR in Taiwan politics. Since Hoklo both in the KMT and DPP believe WSR should no longer seek the highest office in ROC.

At this point nobody can legally disenfranchise anyone- so relax ac.-martial law was lifted in 87. It is a war of words, not of guns. I know you want to reduce ethnic tensions- so I know you’ll agree with me that a thorough investigation into those responsible for ordering killings and detention re 228 be brought to justice. the hangings at nuremburg come to mind. then part of the ‘ill gotten assents’ stolen by certain individuals in the KMT should go into a compensation fund for old retired soldiers and the families of victims of 228/the white terror. if these groups already get money and you all think it’s adequate, dump all the money into the general treasury.

What will reduce ‘ethnic tensions’ is finding out exactly who is really blame-worthy and punishing them. then the other groups will see justice in action and start to believe in fairness. it is those blame-worthy people who will do whatever they can to switch or dilute the focus away from themselves.

some of your statements, ac, are so obviously off that i think this has either degenerated into a game for you, or you are hoping to appeal to the uninformed. my feeling is that it’s the former.

v,

I don’t see the relevance of 228 or ill gotten KMT gains here.
Just like 228 has very little to do with CSB various scandals. 228 is not a catch all to Taiwan politics.

I’m talking about a KMT member using racist rhetoric in Taiwan politics. A Holo has basically stated that no minority member of ROC has the right to higher office in ROC.

That would be akin to a White presidential candidate stating that no Blacks, women, or minority member should hold office over the majority. How long would a White candidate last in the USA after making such a bold statement?

[quote=“ac_dropout”]

I don’t see the relevance of 228 or ill gotten KMT gains here.
Just like 228 has very little to do with CSB various scandals. 228 is not a catch all to Taiwan politics.[/quote]

So you don’t see the relevance of the original sin of the KMT against the Taiwanese in relation to ethnic tensions?

I gather that you are very dim.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]
I’m talking about a KMT member using racist rhetoric in Taiwan politics. A Holo has basically stated that no minority member of ROC has the right to higher office in ROC. [/quote]

You have not read Mr. Wang’s remarks, if you had read them and actually understood them, you would reply differently.

He was not talking about a minority as such, more of a small elite, trying to manipulate things to their own gain.

[quote=“ac_dropout”]v,

I don’t see the relevance of 228 or ill gotten KMT gains here.
Just like 228 has very little to do with CSB various scandals. 228 is not a catch all to Taiwan politics.

I’m talking about a KMT member using racist rhetoric in Taiwan politics. A Holo has basically stated that no minority member of ROC has the right to higher office in ROC.

That would be akin to a White presidential candidate stating that no Blacks, women, or minority member should hold office over the majority. How long would a White candidate last in the USA after making such a bold statement?[/quote]

Since we are comparing to the US, a candidate such as Ma, who is not a natural born citizen of Taiwan would be ineligible for the office of president anyway.

[quote=“Mick”][quote=“ac_dropout”]v,

I don’t see the relevance of 228 or ill gotten KMT gains here.
Just like 228 has very little to do with CSB various scandals. 228 is not a catch all to Taiwan politics.

I’m talking about a KMT member using racist rhetoric in Taiwan politics. A Holo has basically stated that no minority member of ROC has the right to higher office in ROC.

That would be akin to a White presidential candidate stating that no Blacks, women, or minority member should hold office over the majority. How long would a White candidate last in the USA after making such a bold statement?[/quote]

Since we are comparing to the US, a candidate such as Ma, who is not a natural born citizen of Taiwan would be ineligible for the office of president anyway.[/quote]
Only in the fantasy country known as ROT. In ROC, Ma is eligilble for presidency.

Not to mention there are certain factions of US politics that have been actively debating the meaning of “natural born US citizen” since a certain movie star seems promising as a candidate in the future…and a few individuals that started off as Canadians in US government.

But it would be interesting to see the Hoklo majority on Taiwan try to legislate only BSR would be allow to seek the highest office in the land. Because what of ROC citizen from Matsu and Jinmen, who are outside of Taiwan province.

The disturbing thing about the comment is that even within the BSR population, Hakka and aboriginals are minorities.

Wasn’t Ma born in HK? So… he is British, no? (although he doesn’t go “oh, bollocks” everywhere, neither he has the britcom humour people so much like on the right side of the pond… (pond=Atlantic ocean)…)

Of course, after that comment, I can remember one quote from Blackadder: "Oh, God, God, God! What on earth was I drinking last night? My head feels like there’s a Frenchman living in it. "… (no offence to French…).

For Ma, after his affair-wida-candy-jar been discovered, he thought: "Oh no! What a mad blundering, incredibly handsome young nincompoop I’ve been! " and “I’m doomed! Doomed as the dodo!”…

Or, to my dear friend AC, "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through. " (also from Blackadder)…