The Ultimate Sacrifice: BS or something else?

Politics International Politics
#1

[quote=“jdsmith”]Now THIS is a faster:

Bobby Sands
65 days

Anyone doing these 24 hour fast or fasting relays for their “cause” shit all over his memory.[/quote]

Terrorists OK now are they? Oh, I’m sorry there was no terrorism before 9/11 was there? How remiss of me. Just “freedom fighters” funded from Boston collection boxes.

First IRA bloke: “Hey Paddy, How are you”
Second IRA bloke: “Great, and you?”
First: “Why are you carrying two buckets of shit”
Second: “Oh, well you see, my son’s getting out so I thought I’d do a bit of decorating”

Yeah, JD…fond memories.

I’ve got a temple to Bobby Sands memory but I always flush it after use.

BroonArmalite

#2

[quote=“BroonAle”][quote=“jdsmith”]Now THIS is a faster:

Bobby Sands
65 days

Anyone doing these 24 hour fast or fasting relays for their “cause” shit all over his memory.[/quote]

Terrorists OK now are they? Oh, I’m sorry there was no terrorism before 9/11 was there? How remiss of me. Just “freedom fighters” funded from Boston collection boxes.

First IRA bloke: “Hey Paddy, How are you”
Second IRA bloke: “Great, and you?”
First: “Why are you carrying two buckets of shit”
Second: “Oh, well you see, my son’s getting out so I thought I’d do a bit of decorating”

Yeah, JD…fond memories.

I’ve got a temple to Bobby Sands memory but I always flush it after use.

BroonArmalite[/quote]

This is quite true, that the IRA is/was a terrorist group…my point was a more general one though of dying for one’s cause and “dying” for one’s cause.

But I do regret that I did not make that more clear. I respect Bobby Sands for starving himself to death over principle as I respect the courage of the 911 pilots for flying straight into a fucking building at 400MPH.

However, I do not proclaim to be a follower of either one’s interests.

clear enough?

jds

#3

Say what you will, he was still an elected member of parliament.

Oh Christ, I can hear Lord Lucan thumping up behind me, and I’m sure he’s armed with a shoot to kill order.

HG

#4

[quote=“jdsmith”]I respect Bobby Sands for starving himself to death over principle as I respect the courage of the 911 pilots for flying straight into a fucking building at 400MPH.

jds[/quote]

Would you like a bigger shovel? Do you respect suicide bombers for the ‘courage’ of their convictions too? Have you designed your bumper stickers yet? T-shirt?

I make no bones about the fact that I often post crap just for a laugh but that, JD, was one of your least judicious posts… :loco:

BroonAsserts

#5

[quote=“BroonAle”][quote=“jdsmith”]I respect Bobby Sands for starving himself to death over principle as I respect the courage of the 911 pilots for flying straight into a fucking building at 400MPH.

jds[/quote]

Would you like a bigger shovel? Do you respect suicide bombers for the ‘courage’ of their convictions too? Have you designed your bumper stickers yet? T-shirt?

I make no bones about the fact that I often post crap just for a laugh but that, JD, was one of your least judicious posts… :loco:

BroonAsserts[/quote]

I imagine you have stronger feelings about it being a Brit than I do not being one. Bobby Sands being an IRA member causes little if any emotional reaction in me.

If I wish to look at individual acts from the human condition, then it is my choice; but I hope you can see that I am removing ALL political connections from MY POV…not theirs. To give or take one’s own life is not an easy task, and to do so NOT under the “control” of an outside source…well it says something about the level of one’s belief…

As for suicide bombers…what happens to them if they fail? Are they welcomed home or murdered for disobediance? And suicide bombers prey on noncombatants mostly and that is not cool with me. The IRA did too, however Bobby starving himself did not. I think you can see the difference.

Courage is courage; courage of one’s convictions, in BS’s case, starving himself to death does IMHO deserve a certain amount of respect, just as the monks who immolated themselves did during the Vietnam war. I doubt I could manage either of those things.

Again, I will admit that I do need a shovel as I let my lips flap too freely about Bobby. He was cast as a hero in the States at the time…I should have thought more about it.

My apologies for my stupidity and any offense it caused in your good self Broonale.

jdsumbits

#6

What a minute, I don’t understand where you get off posting stuff like this on July 4th, but I don’t respect mass-murderers and definitely not those who target American civilians.

  1. Harm to others: You respect the 911 pilots for their commitment to dying while murdering thousands of other human beings? Bobby Sands and his fellow hunger strikers didn’t kill anybody else when they starved themselves to death to protest their jail conditions and to embarrass a British government they saw as an occupying force within their nation. I cannot respect anybody who uses their own death as part of a deliberate effort to murder others, and I can’t imagine that you would either if you thought about it a bit more.

  2. Degree of difficulty of death: Sands and the others did so slowly over a period of many, many weeks with constant temptation and attempts at intervention. Once the planes were aimed in the right direction the 911 pilots died nearly instantaneously. Crushed in the nose of the plane, the 911 pilots had a much easier death than the majority of their victims in the Towers who roasted in intense heat and smoke so bad that hundreds jumped to their deaths.

  3. Slippery slope: If the deaths of mass-murderers during an attack on innocents is deemed heroic, then do you also consider the willingness of a mass-murderer to “die for his cause” also laudable? For example, Timothy McVeigh murdered some 160+ Americans in the Oklahoma City bombing. He was put on trial and sentenced to death, a punishment that he was supposedly ready and committed to receiving. Will he now get a equal berth in this pantheon of the brave that you’re creating?

New York’s my hometown, and I can’t see that huge scar in the downtown area without thinking of the people who were murdered there. I’m really surprised that you would consider the 911 pilots anywhere in the same league as Sands. Can you at least reconsider?

peace,

mofangongren

#7

Look, NY State is my home and NYC is as dear to me as it is to you.

As for posting this on the 4th…I had forgotten it. :blush: Not that it makes any difference.

I am talking about something very hard to describe…a human emotion, devoid of political meaning. The acceptance of one’s death with open arms.

Of course, and it should absolutely clear to you MFGR, that I feel the 911 pilots were murderers, and that Bobby Sand’s REASONING were totally different.

I respect that people can accept their own termination consciously, beforehand; it might be a better world if people did this before they were in a situation where they had to choose life or death.

I hope this is clear. I understand that this might seem quite contradictory to my often stated political beliefs; but to me, this goes beyond that, and does not call into judgement the reasoning for choosing death, only that it was done so willingly.

Peace to you sir as well, and happy 4th!

#8

My God…

For the first time ever (at least as far as I know)… I have to say that I actually agree with MFGR 100 percent on this…

Wow…

I have to sit down…

Feeling weak… dizzy… disoriented… haha

#9

[quote=“fred smith”]My God…

For the first time ever (at least as far as I know)… I have to say that I actually agree with MFGR 100 percent on this…

Wow…

I have to sit down…

Feeling weak… dizzy… disoriented… haha[/quote]

:slight_smile:

In the future I will keep my spiritual thoughts to myself to prevent this from happening.

#10

Mr. Smith, as your physician, I reccomend liberal applications of…
…repeat as needed.

#11

For the next few hours, it’s still the 4th of July in the United States. Perhaps it’s the Spirit of '76 that’s left us in agreement.

Happy 230th!

#12

[quote=“jdsmith”]
In the future I will keep my spiritual thoughts to myself to prevent this from happening.[/quote]

Bugger all spiritual about any part of your original assertion that Bobby Sands is somehow a hero. And then to state quite categorically that you ‘respect’ the 9/11 bombers for doing what they did because of the ‘courage of their convictions’ just has to be one of I.P’s worst thought out logical processes ever :loco: - worse even than my own (which are designed to irk Freda Schmidt). Worryingly, as you attempted to reason your way out of it, you seem to be serious. :loco:

So it seems that you have found your larger shovel.

You are saying that if a terrorist firmly believes in what they are doing, it is worthy of respect. :loco: let’s hear it for the Iraqi insurgents then! Let’s have some praise for the hunger strikers in Gulag Guantanamo! let’s hear praise for Abu Sayaf, Islamic Jihad, Jamaah Islamiya, more praise for the IRA! Go on…

Let’s have some respect for Abu Nidal, Osama bin Laden and all the rest of them!

After all, they seem to believe in what they are doing.

Let’s see you wear that “I respect Mohammed Atta because of the courage of his convictions” t-shirt and see how much your Homeland Security people agree with you next time you arrive at JFK.

At least you brought MFGR and Felch together…but that just illustrates the stupidity of your somewhat esoteric admiration for terrorists.

BroonAghast

#13

Now, I agree with Broon Ale 100 percent. This following my earlier agreement 100 percent with MFGR… If I agree with Bob 100 percent I am going to quit this forum for all eternity. As it is, must lie down, find psychiatrist’s number, find gun where are bullets…

#14

jdsmith,

you’re in good company: Bill Maher had his Politically Incorrect show canned because he suggested that the suicide pilots weren’t cowards. Traditionally, neither ‘heroic’ nor ‘noble’ necessarily meant ‘good’; particular virtues don’t make anyone virtuous.

Having escaped justice in this life, I hope these bastards get what they deserve in the next. In the here and now, a nod to their audaciousness in no way justifies their actions, and probably does us some good when it comes to outthinking the next set of loonies.

#15

You are incorrect. I said that I respect their consciously accepting their own demise; you are focused only on their reasoning and their politics, and I am not.

I have judged the political actions of all the people you have brought up in the past; I am talking about something totally different, and you only seem intent of seeing me backpeddle from a poorly stated post.

Well, I did, and I have clarified myself as well as I can. If you still disagree with me, ok. Won’t be the first time.

#16

That’s a quick trip to a private seaching room and a longer, unchallengeable stay on the “no flight” list. Of course, eventually there will also be lists for Amtrak and Greyhound as well to ensure potential Atta sympathizers don’t cause problems.

#17

You are incorrect. I said that I respect their consciously accepting their own demise; you are focused only on their reasoning and their politics, and I am not.

I have judged the political actions of all the people you have brought up in the past; I am talking about something totally different, and you only seem intent of seeing me backpeddle from a poorly stated post.

Well, I did, and I have clarified myself as well as I can. If you still disagree with me, ok. Won’t be the first time.[/quote]

Your continued attempts at rebuttal are no more than intellectual masturbation. You haven’t made any sense at all and your post requires a drastic re-think. Perhaps a Viennese cafe might be a good place to rethink it.

BroonAmericanAirlines

#18

You are incorrect. I said that I respect their consciously accepting their own demise; you are focused only on their reasoning and their politics, and I am not.

I have judged the political actions of all the people you have brought up in the past; I am talking about something totally different, and you only seem intent of seeing me backpeddle from a poorly stated post.

Well, I did, and I have clarified myself as well as I can. If you still disagree with me, ok. Won’t be the first time.[/quote]

Your continued attempts at rebuttal are no more than intellectual masturbation. You haven’t made any sense at all and your post requires a drastic re-think. Perhaps a Viennese cafe might be a good place to rethink it.

BroonAmericanAirlines[/quote]

And your refusal to see things from my POV only seems to strengthen your conviction that I too should demonize people who do things I don’t like.

#19

I think that you are mixing up Jdsmith with Jaboney, no?

#20

I think that you are mixing up Jdsmith with Jaboney, no?[/quote]

Doesn’t matter much does it? It’s a pot. Stir it! :wink: