unless you are talking about the native people.
The Han people living in Taiwan either speak 國語 or 閩南。
You could get away with saying ‘Taiwanese Mandarin’ or ‘Taiwanese Minnan’
But there really isn’t any Taiwanese langauge spoken by the majority Han in Taiwan.
Get real.
There is 台語, of course, which is known as “Taiwanese”. It is based on Quanzhou Minnan, but with influences from Japanese and with differences in vocabulary and accent that have developed over the centuries.
[quote=“salparadise”]
Get real.[/quote]
Not a linguist, are you son? 
What’s the quote about the only difference between languages and dialects is borders?
Amoy
Amoy Dialect
Ban-lam
Ban-lam-gi
Ban-lam-gu
Fujianese
Fukienese
Hagu
Hokkien
Hoklo
Holo
Ho-lo-oe
Minnan
Minnanhua
Minnanyu
Southern Fujianese
Southern Min
Tai-gi
Tai-gu
Tai-oan-oe
Taiwan Minnan
Taiwanese
Taiwanese Dialect
Taiwanese Language
Taiwanese Minnan
Taiwanhua
Taiyu
Pick one based on your political bias…
Nobody says “閩南” - it’s 閩南語 or 閩南話. Besides, if you’re sitting on the other side of the political fence, then you would say “the Han people living in Taiwan either speak 華語, 台語 or 客家話”.
Do I smell the unpleasant waft of Chinese nationalism?
My suspicion exactly.
The term 台語 is just a way for all those “Taiwanese” to differentiate themselves from other Chinese in my opinion.
“No! We’re real Taiwanese. You’re just Chinese.” Blah, blah… It’s Ming Nan Yu, like it or not in my opinion.
If one is to argue that 台語 is a language unto itself then we must also have Amercanese, Canadish, Singaporeanishese, and so on and so forth.
Mandarin would also then be Taiwanese by the same standards and all local languages would have to be considered…well…erm…something else.
[quote=“sulavaca”]The term 台語 is just a way for all those “Taiwanese” to differentiate themselves from other Chinese in my opinion.
“No! We’re real Taiwanese. You’re just Chinese.” Blah, blah… It’s Ming Nan Yu, like it or not in my opinion.[/quote]
It is different; I used to work with a bunch of genuine Min Nan-ers. politick it all you like, but recognise that that’s all it is.
[quote=“sulavaca”]If one is to argue that 台語 is a language unto itself then we must also have Amercanese, Canadish, Singaporeanishese, and so on and so forth.
Mandarin would also then be Taiwanese by the same standards and all local languages would have to be considered…well…erm…something else.[/quote]
Not analogous.
Well when I think that I don’t believe in such styled analogies in reference to “race” as every individual in the world is different, on this level I might agree. Are you saying that as each individual on the planet has their own unique perspective on their mother tongue, then each individual should have a different name to describe the language they speak?
If there are to be borders restricting definitions, then the term “Taiwanese” has crossed one in my opinion for its most recent route is not of the island known as Taiwan. I don’t know for how long a language must be used within a border area or how much of it must be different as a percentage to that of its heritage, but there are still enough people in Taiwan who call it Edit: Minnanyu, so I imagine there are not yet enough of a majority for it to be considered an individual language of individual heritage.
Can I say you speak a North American language because you use the word “bunch” in regards to a group of people?
EDIT: Come to think of it people that shout it at each other on a daily basis can call it what they like. I’m not really bothered. Its not as if things here must follow much of a sense of logic anyway.
It’s never ever logical, just as no language is ‘logical’. Migration patterns, stuff like that never produce clean linguistic/naming borders. It’s silly for people to make political issues of it.
Yeah, why not call the Mandarin spoken in Taiwan, Taiwanese? It is spoken by the people living in Taiwan, the Taiwanese people, and it has a lot of differences to the Mandarin spoken in Beijing, Shanghai, or other places where Chinese people live. I like that idea.
Or how about taking all the people that were born in Taiwan, disregarding where their parents where born or whether they are called Waishengren, Taiwanren, Hakka or Aborigines, and see what language they speak most of the time. And lets call that language Taiwanese.
Yeah, why not call the Mandarin spoken in Taiwan, Taiwanese? It is spoken by the people living in Taiwan, the Taiwanese people, and it has a lot of differences to the Mandarin spoken in Beijing, Shanghai, or other places where Chinese people live. I like that idea.
Or how about taking all the people that were born in Taiwan, disregarding where their parents where born or whether they are called Waishengren, Taiwanren, Hakka or Aborigines, and see what language they speak most of the time. And lets call that language Taiwanese.[/quote]
Because that would be a political, artificial imposition of ideology on an organic non-political phenomenon.
Yeah, why not call the Mandarin spoken in Taiwan, Taiwanese? It is spoken by the people living in Taiwan, the Taiwanese people, and it has a lot of differences to the Mandarin spoken in Beijing, Shanghai, or other places where Chinese people live. I like that idea.
Or how about taking all the people that were born in Taiwan, disregarding where their parents where born or whether they are called Waishengren, Taiwanren, Hakka or Aborigines, and see what language they speak most of the time. And lets call that language Taiwanese.[/quote]
I fear that all this logic is going to upset someone at some point. Without logic then people will still have a means to shout at each other and call each other names you see and what else do we have on local television that’s as worth watching?
Perhaps there could be an international body, paid for by the world’s taxes, which decides what to call the languages everybody speaks. It could also arbitrate on important issues such as spelling, transliteration of non-phonemic languages and any other disputes.
‘I refuse to have my language called ‘Welsh’ because it is a derogatory Saxon word! Rar! They have oppress my peeeeeple!’
Tell that to A-Huang (that’s 阿方).
When I’m on a train and hear older men yelling into their cell phones or near a construction area and I hear young guys yelling at each other with red binlang juice flying from their stained teeth, I’m certain they are speaking what they believe is Taiwanese.
I find myself wondering about the draw of this speech.
Most of my younger colleagues and contacts admit they don’t speak Taiwanese very well, and when they do, it’s only to their elders. Although, some of the younger guys speak it to each other as if they are part of a secret brotherhood.
While the official language (school, government, and media) is Mandarin (the most spoken language in the world), and while the surest way to bolster your pocket book is to have a good grasp of English (second most spoken language in the world), I am puzzled as to the point of perpetuating the “Taiwanese” language.
I can understand the sense of camaraderie and community that may stem from it. But does this come at a price?
Knowing firsthand that certain English accents in the US and the UK are seen as “uneducated” or “ignorant”, does the same hold true for a “Taiwanese” Mandarin accent?
A child raised in Taiwan to learn Mandarin and English would be able to communicate with the entire industrialized world as adults, as Mandarin and English are the “lingua franca” in the East and West, respectively. On paper, this seems like an incredible advantage for the future Taiwanese government and business leaders. If these same children were raised with “Taiwanese” in the home, would they be at a disadvantage?
Though leaning towards “YES”, I can’t pretend to have the answer. I’m only saying these questions have been on my mind since moving here.
You can’t perpetuate your native language. You are born to it. Any attempt to promote or suppress someone’s native language is generally doomed because it assumes an authority that has an incredibly high level of controll over every aspect of people’s lives. It is also completely fascistic.
I have a northern English accent, although not really from a low prestige area/socio-economic background. What’s the solution to people who think I am low-class and uneducated because of that? My alternatives are to adopt a more prestigious accent, or to buck the stereotype that I’m a car-thief, a drug dealer or a single mother on benefits. Which do you think anyone with a shred of self respect would choose? Similarly, Taiwanese, Hakka, Ayatal, whatever, speakers should absolutely not accept that their native language, in their own country where they vote and pay taxes, is less prestigious in any way. Of course there’s an obvious argument for the promotion of a lingua franca such as Mandarin, and there may be debate over which that language is by various factions, but for people whose language was mainstream on the rock before 1949, they absolutely shouldn’t accept any crap about their language being not ‘useful’.
Fluent foreign languages do open doors, but English is not going to happen, any time soon, for the majority of Taiwanese people, so to divert teaching and cultural resources to that, for the benefit of particular elites, would be wrong. There’s no way to replace Taiwanese with English, in addition.
I do see your points, kaiwen338, but respectfully, I think you are mistaken in them.
(ooh, you’ve made me want to dig out my Taiwanese learning CDs now! Down with the lingo of the oppressive capitalist running dogs! (Mandarin) )
[quote=“salparadise”]unless you are talking about the native people.
The Han people living in Taiwan either speak 國語 or 閩南。
You could get away with saying ‘Taiwanese Mandarin’ or ‘Taiwanese Minnan’
But there really isn’t any Taiwanese langauge spoken by the majority Han in Taiwan.
Get real.[/quote]
That’s what people call it here, it’s not exactly a huge stretch of the imagination to see how it makes sense. You might as well say there is no Japanese language spoken by the majority in Japan because other languages exist there, etc etc. Making such an argument is a pretty good marker for intent to repress the language or people in question, it seems to me. A name, in itself, is just a name.
[quote=“kaiwen338”]
When I’m on a train and hear older men yelling into their cell phones or near a construction area and I hear young guys yelling at each other with red binlang juice flying from their stained teeth, I’m certain they are speaking what they believe is Taiwanese.
I find myself wondering about the draw of this speech.[/quote]
You’re making a logical fallacy here. True, young guys yelling spitting binlang are likely to be speaking taiwanese, and such behavior is not attractive. However it does not follow–and is not true–that all taiwanese speakers exhibit such behavior–that’s actually pretty insulting btw. Also, it need not be said that unattractive behavior in taiwan is not exclusive to taiwanese speakers. I hope that answers some of those questions of yours better than some of the other faulty conclusions you drew based on your own personal perceptions.
Sounds more to me like someone’s upset because he can’t speak it.
Buttercup and Tempo Gain, thanks for the comments.
I was not trying to be offensive or draw hasty conclusions. Just verbalizing some thoughts to get feedback from esteemed Forumosans to lead to better understanding and perception on my part.
Ironlady, I speak more Taiwanese than you might know. :discodance: Kao Yao!
[quote=“kaiwen338”]Buttercup and Tempo Gain, thanks for the comments.
I was not trying to be offensive or draw hasty conclusions. Just verbalizing some thoughts to get feedback from esteemed Forumosans to lead to better understanding and perception on my part.
Ironlady, I speak more Taiwanese than you might know. :discodance: Kao Yao![/quote]
You have to ask yourself who is perpetuating the idea that Taiwanese is ‘low-class’ and Mandarin is ‘high-class’ and why they are doing that. Does it sound logical to you, or does it sound like a kind of insidious racism/snobbery/tribalistic jingoism that is perpetuated for far from noble reasons?