[quote=“Dangermouse”]The ones who hate George Bush generally keep their traps shut. The pro Bush folk don’t and have quite large mouths. An example of this can be seen quite clearly on this forum.[/quote]Bullshit.
[quote=“Dangermouse”]Oh. I’m so offended.[/quote]No need.[quote=“Dangermouse”]I think there is a simmering hatred there somewhere. Switching on the TV every now and then to see a burning Star Spangled Banner is enough proof to me; the internet clearly shows there are plenty of people who hate America just from the plethora of websites available.[/quote]Yeah…and these nut bags get al of the media attention. Whats a country to do. Its media is against it…
[quote=“Dangermouse”]Yes indeed. In your view.[/quote]Proven media bias.[quote=“Dangermouse”]No, I don’t think so. As I said, I don’t hate America per se, I just feel the need to balance out all the right wing loonies out there who believe America can do no wrong. Believe all you like.[/quote]Along with the Yeti, Sasquatch and “Nessie” these creatures have yet to be proven a reality.
Disclaimer: I personally believe in the existence of Sasquatch and Nessie. The Yeti…I’m still decideing on that one.[quote=“Dangermouse”]Well, I wouldn’t remember this and you are clearly alot older than I am so you will be able to easily recall such times. I do know that my friend’s Grandmother still spits on Japanese cars though, but that’s another story.[/quote]Can’t help you here. I’ve owned too many Nippon products to claim a bias. But I do not trust Nipponese Gov’t or business people to be fair. Forewarned is forearmed.[quote=“Dangermouse”]Perhaps.[/quote]Well said[quote=“Dangermouse”] Many would say different. And I’m not saying America deserves this, but again, perhaps it needs a wake up call. It is only in the view of the west that this is a dysfunction; I’m sure it is quite normal to the fellows in the region who have an axe to grind with you.[/quote]I think you’re really on our side. Just let go…you’ll feel better.[quote=“Dangermouse”]If you are reffering to the British Government here, I would say that you’re falling down somewhat as, as far as I can see, my government is Pro US and perhaps our tiny population is being brianwashed in the opposite way to the way you declare.[/quote]We like the Brits. Always have and always will.[quote=“Dangermouse”]
Hang on there Fred - The Japanese were awful during the war and treated people very, very badly. I think this remark is rather poor considering what the Japanese got up to. People hated (and still do hate) the Japanese for what they did, not jsut for what the history books say. Consider what went on during the war here in Taiwan not 15 miles from where you are sitting in Taipei. The Japanese were bastards and they still don’t have the gumption to apologise.[quote]Still a problem.[quote=“Dangermouse”]No Fred - the difference is that a): The things that Japan did over 50 years ago and are not happening today.
b): As things are happening now, people have the chance to make a stand judging by what is happening (from their perspective) for themselves.[/quote]No, its not the “people standing for themselves”, its one radical minority group with weapons and foreign support after another trying to impose their facist regime on an unarmed and impotent populace after another.[quote=“Dangermouse”]So why doesn’t it?[/quote] We do. Thats why people get so continually pissed-off at us. We like to see things thru with the original plan.[quote=“Dangermouse”]What country is going to do this when it is easier just to Kow tow? I’m sure that if possible, many countries would like to band together and rise up against the US should they have the resources, military power and logistics and money to do so. Perhaps they will in the future. I’m sure China, N Korea or the Middle east would like to do something should they suddely have the power bestowed upon them.
Unfortunately (fortunately actually) they havn’t. That’s why we have the postion we find ourselves in now - terrorism and under-the-table wars.
[/quote]Not really. The proof is in the fact that most, if not all free countries, realize the advantage they have being an ally, or at least a non-hostile, to the USA and her allies.[quote=“Dangermouse”]Research some European and Canadian white papers Fred. Then tell me all about the pressure other countries were put under by America to dismantle arms, discontinue military projects and generally be forced to accept Americas “protection umbrella.”[/quote]Look at what the reality of the situation was/is. Academic output rarely equals an unbiased view or conclusion on world events. Agendas are only magnified in the world of “publish or perish.”[quote=“Dangermouse”]Well go on then.
Infact - while we are on the subject of military projects and protection umbrellas and all, care to have a look at the Cold War years and tell me how much Europe asd a whole was sold short by the US? Perhaps you can total up the number of home grown European arms projects that were cancelled due to US pressure? How about the famous example of when the US government pressured the UK to cancel a bomber project it so desperately needed - and then turn round and offer F 111’s in it’s place which were nowhere near up to the job advertised.
I’m sure we could also talk about some missile projects here, too.
OK. So you don’t want to talk about this.
How about we talk about some recent projects like the Joint Strike Fighter program instead, of which many countries are taking part in. Let’s say, for example, that America doesn’t want to take part in the agreed technology sharing and R+D process, keeping all it’s ideas to itself but skimming off everybody elses technology.[/quote]Euro Fighter…need I actually mention EADS and British technologies contribution to this group?[quote=“Dangermouse”]Let’s say that the UK, again pissed off with Americas disgusting “business” attitude, threatens to cancel it’s share in the project - something extremely expensive in terms of billions of pounds (Our billion, not your billion).
Oh, and then the US scrapped the contracted engine designed specifically for the aircraft by Rolls Royce which meant a huge loss of billions British companies connected with RR in the UK. We were not even consulted. So much for the “Joint” in the title.
Again we can see that the US is alienating itself. Not only this, but you are forcing countries which work alongside the US in defence sectors to re-think and work with other countries. America is forcing, at present day, the UK to work more closely with France and Germany because the US is not keeping its side of the bargain on a number of military projects - yet again.
Let’s say that British technology and French technology gets all mixed together and ends up as planes, missiles and tanks. France wants to sell to China. Germany wants to sell to China.
You see what’s happening? America screws other countries and then moans when it finds itself alienated and because agreements weren’t kept.[/quote]I believe the keyword here is “Agreements”…as in contractual agreements. GB signed these. Contracts are meant to be honored. Don’t blame others if the tide changes.[quote=“Dangermouse”] These screwed countries don’t want to listen to America. These countries then want to sell to other questionable countries because they lost out, and yet the US is moaning even though it is one of the main causes of the problems it finds itself in.[/quote]Not really. Politics and the arms trade is a fluid substance. You’ve(Britain) have been surfing this longer than we (USA) have.[quote=“Dangermouse”]Since going alone is not a financial option, Britain would look elsewhere for defense development cooperation - to European industry, and to EU-led programs to create both a common European defense industry and a European force independent of NATO or the USA. A British military that is more and more interoperable with its European partners, and less and less common with the USA, and also not fostering ties at the weapons program level because cooperation is curtailed… is a Britain that will find itself, slowly but surely pulled away from its special defense relationship with the USA. This will, of course, have ripple effects on its foreign policy. Especially given that broken promises and a breakdown of cooperation would be what led to this whole situation in the first place.
Now these are the kind of things that newspapers and TV news don’t generally report on. Defence journals do, though. I suggest you start reading some - Jane’s is a good place to start.[/quote]My bread & butter. Along with quite a few other “trade journals” and sunscription web sites. Sorry, nothing in these supports your theories. Not saying you are wrong in your facts. Just saying that your anger is mis-placed. The playing field is much leveler than you are making out. And private industry is doing very well in defense nabufacturing work.[quote=“Dangermouse”]Infact, pick up any business magazine and you can see where the US has ripped of another country one way or another. (Hint - HP sauce takeover - March 2006)[/quote]Please…are you using “brown sauce” as a POI in this?[quote=“Dangermouse”]Perhaps you are starting to notice where much of this resentment comes from? Many people losing their jobs or having their lives affected due to contracts being cancelled, companies being short changed or agreements not being kept. Yes Fred, this is middle England bar room talk. Maybe you can start to see that your initial views about people hating America because it is successful, although true in some cases, are largely unfounded.[/quote]Technology changes, manufacturing changes. This affects all, world wide. Those who adapt to these changes prosper. Those who develop new technology to go with the changing fields do well. You know this.
Sorry, in the scale of events these issues are minor at best. Britain has profitted greatly thanks to its technological alliance with the US, its affiliated defense group companies and the greater levels of technological expertise it has developed from this alliance. This has enabled Britain, and British companies, to today have a wide ranging position of equality with defense groups world-wide. And the trans-national alliances currently existing are demonstrating that British companies, specifically in the aeronautical, electronic and defense segment, are in now way playing 2nd fiddle to any other member of this world grouping.[quote=“Dangermouse”]
I’m very familar with the lend-lease program. However, let’s look at pre lend lease. Perhaps you can tell me who said these fine words:
“We’ve milked the British cash cow for all it is worth….”
Or perhaps you don’t want to. Up to you.
Perhaps you can tell me how much of the lend-lease program ended up at the bottom of the sea because US ships refused to intercept submarines operating in the area. Perhaps you can also tell me how it had to be generally British ships which bought over supplies, not American, therefore using up valuable shipping resources which could have been used better to help when the Home Fleet was being bombed. Lend-Lease was a bit of a farse in the early days, according to some accounts.[/quote]Irrelevant. Look up the US Merchant arine and their actions and [b]casualty rate[quote=“Dangermouse”]ss the Atlantic prior to and during WWII[quote=“Dangermouse”]OK, the UK started the offensive against Germany when it withdrew it’s plans to invade Britain after the Battle of Britain was won. It directed much of it’s efforts to the Russian front. I’d be interested to hear your version of events. I’ve heard that the Americans are very good at re-writing history.[/quote]No need to re-write. [quote=“Dangermouse”]A few faults Fred:
Contrary to popular American opinion, British people do not spend all evening in the pub talking about America and it’s virtues/faults. In fact, even Cricket takes precedence. Then it’s marbles and then, right down the list after conversations about new developments in the velcro industry, basket weaving and cheese rolling, there may - if there is time before last orders - be a conversation about America.
And then it’s usually about Disneyland.[/quote]You really do need to be more selective in who you socialize with.[quote=“Dangermouse”]I’m supporting views from information that I have gathered myself - and while I have alot of good things to say about America, on this forum in particular I like to contradict the pro American feel. It’s just too overbearing to stand sometimes.[/quote]Hoo hum…and this is not?[quote=“Dangermouse”]
Multiple engine designs. Radar technology, IFF, Aircraft carrier design to the present day, Aerodynamics, shell technology, labour and intellectual property - you name it - you’ve taken it. HUD displays in recent times. See above for present day tactics. The UK gave you the rights to manufacture the Harrier as the AV8B, and then you went and sold it to other countries thus undercutting our market. The US even stole the technology that enabled it to break the sound barrier. So yes, it is a gripe.[/quote]The Harrier has just been removed from service. It performed well during its time and Britain sold it world-wide. Along with support trchnology. The game was played according to everyones rules.[quote=“Dangermouse”]Anyway, I don’t think I know which one you are talking about. Maybe I havn’t mentioned it. Perhaps we can add it to the list, eh?[/quote]
[quote=“fred smith”]Since then, your subway has been bombed by Muslim terrorists[/quote][quote=“Dangermouse”]Probably because of our staunch friendship with the US.[/quote]They didn’t mention this as a motivating reason. Why should you?
[quote=“Dangermouse”]Like I said, I don’t “Hate” America. Perhaps you should speak to the majority of muslims and see if they think their hatred of America is irrational?[/quote]I do not think you do wither. But I do think that you are placing a lot of blame where it does not belong.[quote=“Dangermouse”]You know, in the West, communities usually have a say in how they are policed. If you want to put yourself in this position, deal with the position you find yourself in and deal with the criticism accordingly.[quote=“Dangermouse”] stage. Facing almost instantaneous real-time video and internet reportage. With slight regard for truth and context.[quote=“Dangermouse”]It’s not what you do, but how you do them. America is clearly not leading by example.[/quote] Yes we are.[quote=“Dangermouse”] You want the to be at the top, you deal with the baggage and responsibility that comes with it.[/quote]We are. And doing so with the assistance of our allies.[quote=“Dangermouse”] We did for nearly 3 centuries. I would have thought you’d be able to appreciate your position a little more, considering you could have learned valuable lessons from the mistakes of the British Empire.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]Taught in all of our Command schools of all of our Military groups. Fine lessons learned.
Pardon me for jumping into this. It was/is a fine inter-change and I do hope I have contributed.
Carry on now.
). For many underdeveloped countries there is a pot of gold waiting for them along with movie stars on every corner. Both assessments are equally absurd but it comes with the territory.
