“us”
“depriving us”
This “us” must be the Colonial citizens…did it say ANYTHING about depriving the French of their rights?
The gents in Gitmo aren’t US citizens, are they?
[quote=“jdsmith”]“us”
“depriving us”
This “us” must be the Colonial citizens…did it say ANYTHING about depriving the French of their rights?
The gents in Gitmo aren’t US citizens, are they?[/quote]
Also from the Declaration of Independence:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
The fact that anyone around the world even believes in basic human rights, rule of law and fair play even for those you hate or at war with to a large extent comes from the British tradition of good governance. The irony is that those who sought independence such as the Americans did so by using a tradition of rights and rule of law and fair play inherited from their British cousins. We must pay tribute to the British for everything that they have bequeathed us. Would you rather have a nation based on the German tradition? French tradition? Italian tradition? Spanish tradition instead. Thank God for the British. If they want to come back and “recolonize” the US, I might be willing to consider it, especially if Margaret Thatcher is willing to run for president. 
Dangermouse I find your situation that Americans acting they way they are highly peculiar because it is not in our culture to shoot off the mouth about politics and religion especially to people we just met. This is considered extremely rude and would be completely unacceptable most situations especially in business one. I’m only speculating, but are the people you are meeting “the 1st time overseas English teacher types”? Also I’m curious to understand what your idea of “we are the best attitude” is because I know how the littlest thing can light someone up who is a bit insecure. The other day all I said to someone was my kid goes to the American School and the lady starting going off about how the European School is much better, smaller class’s blah blah blah.
If you also think people in countries like yourself do not suffer from an inferiority complex you are in denial. Why do people hate Manchester United or the New York Yankees? Why do people hate Bill Gates? Why do people hate McDonalds or Coca-Cola? Why wouldn’t the same logic be applied to countries? I’m very aware of my countries position in the world and I’m also aware of your countries position. I find people from your neck of the woods to be much more nationalistic, more conscious on buying products from the England, and much quicker on the flag waving. Ironically I was most worried about bumping into these types of Americans living overseas but hasn’t been the case so far but I would have to imagine if I was close to a U.S. Military Base it would be different.
[quote=“spook”][quote=“jdsmith”]“us”
“depriving us”
This “us” must be the Colonial citizens…did it say ANYTHING about depriving the French of their rights?
The gents in Gitmo aren’t US citizens, are they?[/quote]
Also from the Declaration of Independence:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”[/quote]
Wait, so the US D of I should be spread over the peoples of the world, but US political and economic influence should not? US laws should apply to all non-US citizens, but when others’ laws “violate” our laws, we should not do anything to interfere with them?
hmmm
To meditate on this spook, I’m going to place my head in my rectum…how do you do it? 
[quote]Why do people hate Manchester United or the
New York Yankees
? [/quote]
Envy baby! Envy!
And the "If you can’t beat them BUY them attitude!
whoohoo
GO Yanks!!!
Feel free to give me an example.
[quote=“navillus”][quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote]But I feel very free in cursing them for being biased, racist, corrupt policemen.[/quote]Consider the company this puts you in.[/quote]Feel free to give me an example.[/quote]We’ve met. You’re an intelligent man. You connect those dots… 
As an American, statements like this make me cringe. Don’t you think that’s a wee bit over the top? America is not the world.
Well… let’s see…people who don’t like biased, racist, corrupt policemen. That puts me in the company of most of the civilised world. Excluding, of course, the policemen themselves and those who stand to gain from their corrupt actions.
As an American, statements like this make me cringe. Don’t you think that’s a wee bit over the top? America is not the world.[/quote]
I agree.
Now if it were :To hate the YANKEES…
I’d have to agree.
The ones who hate George Bush generally keep their traps shut. The pro Bush folk don’t and have quite large mouths. An example of this can be seen quite clearly on this forum.
[quote]Just to make you feel justified in your views though I would be happy to confirm that I think that your country is shit…
[/quote]
Oh. I’m so offended.
I think there is a simmering hatred there somewhere. Switching on the TV every now and then to see a burning Star Spangled Banner is enough proof to me; the internet clearly shows there are plenty of people who hate America just from the plethora of websites available.
[quote]Most of it is juvenile posturing in my view.
[/quote]
Yes indeed. In your view.
No, I don’t think so. As I said, I don’t hate America per se, I just feel the need to balance out all the right wing loonies out there who believe America can do no wrong. Believe all you like.
Well, I wouldn’t remember this and you are clearly alot older than I am so you will be able to easily recall such times. I do know that my friend’s Grandmother still spits on Japanese cars though, but that’s another story.
Perhaps.
Many would say different. And I’m not saying America deserves this, but again, perhaps it needs a wake up call. It is only in the view of the west that this is a dysfunction; I’m sure it is quite normal to the fellows in the region who have an axe to grind with you.
[quote]They hate America because they have been brainwashed into doing so by governments that are keen to deflect criticism for their own inept failings.
[/quote]
If you are reffering to the British Government here, I would say that you’re falling down somewhat as, as far as I can see, my government is Pro US and perhaps our tiny population is being brianwashed in the opposite way to the way you declare.
[quote]Witness how well Hitler was able to instill this hatred into Germans. Witness how many Taiwanese, Koreans and Chinese “hate” Japanese because of what their history books have taught them.
[/quote]
Hang on there Fred - The Japanese were awful during the war and treated people very, very badly. I think this remark is rather poor considering what the Japanese got up to. People hated (and still do hate) the Japanese for what they did, not jsut for what the history books say. Consider what went on during the war here in Taiwan not 15 miles from where you are sitting in Taipei. The Japanese were bastards and they still don’t have the gumption to apologise.
No Fred - the difference is that a): The things that Japan did over 50 years ago and are not happening today.
b): As things are happening now, people have the chance to make a stand judging by what is happening (from their perspective) for themselves.
So why doesn’t it?
What country is going to do this when it is easier just to Kow tow? I’m sure that if possible, many countries would like to band together and rise up against the US should they have the resources, military power and logistics and money to do so. Perhaps they will in the future. I’m sure China, N Korea or the Middle east would like to do something should they suddely have the power bestowed upon them.
Unfortunately (fortunately actually) they havn’t. That’s why we have the postion we find ourselves in now - terrorism and under-the-table wars.
Research some European and Canadian white papers Fred. Then tell me all about the pressure other countries were put under by America to dismantle arms, discontinue military projects and generally be forced to accept Americas “protection umbrella.”
Well go on then.
Infact - while we are on the subject of military projects and protection umbrellas and all, care to have a look at the Cold War years and tell me how much Europe asd a whole was sold short by the US? Perhaps you can total up the number of home grown European arms projects that were cancelled due to US pressure? How about the famous example of when the US government pressured the UK to cancel a bomber project it so desperately needed - and then turn round and offer F 111’s in it’s place which were nowhere near up to the job advertised.
I’m sure we could also talk about some missile projects here, too.
OK. So you don’t want to talk about this.
How about we talk about some recent projects like the Joint Strike Fighter program instead, of which many countries are taking part in. Let’s say, for example, that America doesn’t want to take part in the agreed technology sharing and R+D process, keeping all it’s ideas to itself but skimming off everybody elses technology.
Let’s say that the UK, again pissed off with Americas disgusting “business” attitude, threatens to cancel it’s share in the project - something extremely expensive in terms of billions of pounds (Our billion, not your billion).
Oh, and then the US scrapped the contracted engine designed specifically for the aircraft by Rolls Royce which meant a huge loss of billions British companies connected with RR in the UK. We were not even consulted. So much for the “Joint” in the title.
Again we can see that the US is alienating itself. Not only this, but you are forcing countries which work alongside the US in defence sectors to re-think and work with other countries. America is forcing, at present day, the UK to work more closely with France and Germany because the US is not keeping its side of the bargain on a number of military projects - yet again.
Let’s say that British technology and French technology gets all mixed together and ends up as planes, missiles and tanks. France wants to sell to China. Germany wants to sell to China.
You see what’s happening? America screws other countries and then moans when it finds itself alienated and because agreements weren’t kept. These screwed countries don’t want to listen to America. These countries then want to sell to other questionable countries because they lost out, and yet the US is moaning even though it is one of the main causes of the problems it finds itself in.
Since going alone is not a financial option, Britain would look elsewhere for defense development cooperation - to European industry, and to EU-led programs to create both a common European defense industry and a European force independent of NATO or the USA. A British military that is more and more interoperable with its European partners, and less and less common with the USA, and also not fostering ties at the weapons program level because cooperation is curtailed… is a Britain that will find itself, slowly but surely pulled away from its special defense relationship with the USA. This will, of course, have ripple effects on its foreign policy. Especially given that broken promises and a breakdown of cooperation would be what led to this whole situation in the first place.
Now these are the kind of things that newspapers and TV news don’t generally report on. Defence journals do, though. I suggest you start reading some - Jane’s is a good place to start.
Infact, pick up any business magazine and you can see where the US has ripped of another country one way or another. (Hint - HP sauce takeover - March 2006)
Perhaps you are starting to notice where much of this resentment comes from? Many people losing their jobs or having their lives affected due to contracts being cancelled, companies being short changed or agreements not being kept. Yes Fred, this is middle England bar room talk. Maybe you can start to see that your initial views about people hating America because it is successful, although true in some cases, are largely unfounded.
[quote]Which policies do you hate? Please specify which ones you hate and why so we can address your “concerns.”
[/quote]
See above.
[quote]Would you like to examine the records of the Lend Lease program? In the meantime, I will humbly wait your evidence to support such an assertion.
[/quote]
I’m very familar with the lend-lease program. However, let’s look at pre lend lease. Perhaps you can tell me who said these fine words:
“We’ve milked the British cash cow for all it is worth….”
Or perhaps you don’t want to. Up to you.
Perhaps you can tell me how much of the lend-lease program ended up at the bottom of the sea because US ships refused to intercept submarines operating in the area. Perhaps you can also tell me how it had to be generally British ships which bought over supplies, not American, therefore using up valuable shipping resources which could have been used better to help when the Home Fleet was being bombed. Lend-Lease was a bit of a farse in the early days, according to some accounts.
OK, the UK started the offensive against Germany when it withdrew it’s plans to invade Britain after the Battle of Britain was won. It directed much of it’s efforts to the Russian front. I’d be interested to hear your version of events. I’ve heard that the Americans are very good at re-writing history.
A few faults Fred:
Contrary to popular American opinion, British people do not spend all evening in the pub talking about America and it’s virtues/faults. In fact, even Cricket takes precedence. Then it’s marbles and then, right down the list after conversations about new developments in the velcro industry, basket weaving and cheese rolling, there may - if there is time before last orders - be a conversation about America.
And then it’s usually about Disneyland.
I’m supporting views from information that I have gathered myself - and while I have alot of good things to say about America, on this forum in particular I like to contradict the pro American feel. It’s just too overbearing to stand sometimes.
Why don’t you? You seem to be an expert on all things arms-wise.
[quote]Oh, is that how you view the invasion of Poland? and then… nothing… until the following summer when Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium and France were invaded? and then? Retreat?
[/quote]
Care to tell me about the BEF in France, Fred? Even pre war?
Care to tell me how the hell one is supposed to go on the offensive after the whole damn country has been knocked out trying to defend itself on it’s own?
Multiple engine designs. Radar technology, IFF, Aircraft carrier design to the present day, Aerodynamics, shell technology, labour and intellectual property - you name it - you’ve taken it. HUD displays in recent times. See above for present day tactics. The UK gave you the rights to manufacture the Harrier as the AV8B, and then you went and sold it to other countries thus undercutting our market. The US even stole the technology that enabled it to break the sound barrier. So yes, it is a gripe.
Anyway, I don’t think I know which one you are talking about. Maybe I havn’t mentioned it. Perhaps we can add it to the list, eh?
Probably because of our staunch friendship with the US.
Not surprising considering who their main arms dealer was.
Perhaps I do - but not with people who only like to talk about how good the US is or how bad Europe is, not mentioning any names, Fred.
Smith.
Like I said, I don’t “Hate” America. Perhaps you should speak to the majority of muslims and see if they think their hatred of America is irrational?
Whatever.
I don’t really care who thinks they are the worlds police. It could be Easter Island for all I care. The only thing that I would like to see is that they are not so obviously hypocritical, corrupt and offen malicious in their self interest.
[quote]So you are saying that we are OBLIGATED to act every single time any single person or nation demands that we do so?
[/quote]
You know, in the West, communities usually have a say in how they are policed. If you want to put yourself in this position, deal with the position you find yourself in and deal with the criticism accordingly.
It’s not what you do, but how you do them. America is clearly not leading by example. You want the to be at the top, you deal with the baggage and responsibility that comes with it. We did for nearly 3 centuries. I would have thought you’d be able to appreciate your position a little more, considering you could have learned valuable lessons from the mistakes of the British Empire.
I’ll take that as an insult, if you don’t mind.
Don’t forget to find me the man for that quote, Fred, that’s all the proof you need. I look forward to it.
Wrong. We’re not allowed to be nationalistic. We can’t even wave our flag in public. In contrast, your flag is hanging in every school, government office, public square and in about every 5 cuts in a movie.
French Fries?
Take a look at how many French and German cars there on the road. How much Italian fashion there is on the streets and how much foreign food is in the supermarket and then tell me we always buy our own stuff.
Ha! You make me laugh.
Go ahead and close a military base in the UK. There is no industry surrounding any of the airbases in the UK. Infact, it costs us to keep them open - after all, it is our logistical support that allows you to stay there, our radar, our air to air and ground tankers that help refuel your planes and our army and military police that stop you from being bombed by terrorists. IT COSTS US BILLIONS. You get a pretty good deal in Britain without any of the wrap that comes with being in Germany. We’re nice to you.
The Americans took over HP SAUCE!?!?!?!
If that’s not a casus belli I don’t know what is!
Now if it was Marmite…but I think that’s classified under WMD, and should certainly be banned by the Geneva Accords.
And then moved the factory out of the UK even though they promised they wouldn’t - infact, it was a major part of the contract signing that the factory would stay in the UK.
I’m just waiting for the Marmite bomb on the London underground. Imagine what the the death toll would be
Dangermouse:
You are the one making the assertions, put up or shut up.
Second, how is it that the US is able to get so many important military projects “cancelled” and yet not stop all of the amazing aerospace, nuclear, high-speed rail engineering from making such incredible developments in Europe? How successful have we been at preventing link ups between European companies and governments to work on these projects? Do you think that Europe lags behind the US in terms of technological development?
All the rest is rehash. I can find any number of quotes from any number of people to prove a few points but do you honestly think that the US intended to put Britain into the poor house? If so, wouldn’t it have been even better not to fight the war against Germany but to let Germany take over Britain so we could help ourselves to the Empire? I mean that is certainly what the Japanese, Belgians, French and British did with the German “empire” during World War I. No?
Why is it that time and time and time and time and time again, one of the top priorities usually pushed by the US is to increase European defense spending? AND we have gone over this before and I posted several links in which the EU admitted that during the Cold War, it was able to concentrate on economic and social development because it was not investing in defensive systems since the US was handling this? Do a search on this forum first and then let me know only if you cannot find the thread. Much of this has already been discussed to death.
I think that as is typical of many anti-Americans, you are a bit short on the facts and a bit long on the opinion and just as with so many others of your ilk, you make assertions, refuse to support them with facts or links and then when pressed demand that I prove your assertions are wrong rather than you prove that they are right. Why is that?
Anyway, like I said, this has been discussed before. Feel free to do a search. Ditto to anyone else that is interested and if you cannot find all the information that I posted, I will attempt to do so and report here myself. Until then…
So I guess we should be grateful that you allow us to defend you? Thankfully, such nonsense is never heard British government officials. They know that they have a good deal and the US is also lucky to have such a good ally, but I seriously doubt that Britain is in any way suffering from its defensive relationship with the US.
I have issues with what you are saying not with Britain as an ally. I value the British relationship as I do our relationship with the French and Germans and the Eastern Europeans.
Face the music, Fred. You just can’t admit that the US is wrong in many areas and it treats other countries badly.
[quote]Second, how is it that the US is able to get so many important military projects “cancelled” and yet not stop all of the amazing aerospace, nuclear, high-speed rail engineering from making such incredible developments in Europe?
[/quote]
In Europe, Fred. Most, if not all projects where European countries have worked together with the Unioted States have failed because of US malpractice. Look at the history Fred. The proof speaks for itself.
Links between European countries have thrived because America is alienating itself across most industries. I speak for Britain here, which has been shafted by the US since the 50’s on many occasion - it has no choice than to work with European countries and that’s not really what we want - or what America really wants either.
However, lets consider Airbus - I can think of a few occasions where the US has been less than amicable concerning this company, especially with orders and cancellations at the last minute. Speak to many Americans or have a look at the posts made by many Americans in many business or technology forums and see how Airbus gets slated for no real reason. Have a look in the open forum here infact, and see for yourself.
Unfortunately you were too late. Too much trade to lose out on. And let’s not forget, Germany had already backed off - like I said.
And when we do we get it pushed back in our face. Why, of all times during the Cold War did you pressure European nations to cut home grown projects?
Ahh…I know why…so we would turn to the US and buy your questionable gear.
Think about it, Fred. Why, after years of pressure to cut arms should Europe suddenly agree to increase defence spending? Why?
I would say that putting pressure on European countries (and, infact, Canada) not to develop arms during the Cold War was enough reason to spend the surplus on social development, don’t you?
Obviously, the US was handling it.
Do a search on some UK white papers Fred, and tell mje what you come up with. I’m sure you’ll be surprised at what you find (albeit that I’m sure you know about them already).
As I said, I’m not Anti American - please withdraw your comment.
White papers, Fred. Industrial; reports, fred. Current defence situations, Fred. Go and read them.l If you can’t be bothered to do your own research, then perhaps you shouldn’t be in the discussion.
My ilk - please explain.
I’ve given you a few quotes - see above.
I’m sorry Fred, I thought you had a habit of doing that.
Unfortunately I spend more time sifting through books and magazines than reading online where the information recieved is often more of opinion then fact. I don’t spend much time online and unlike you, don’t have hot buttons to all the relevant sites and statistics. It’s taken me half an hour just to write this last post.
But feel free to take a look at all the billions of dollars wasted during the Cold war and after on futile arms projects, technolgy transfers and broken promises, much to Americas gain but Europes loss. The information is all there Fred. You know where to find it. You kow it exists.
Are you defending us or using us as a springboard for your operations in Europe and the Middle East?
I’m just conteracting Ralphy’s post that seems to point towards the fact that UK industry somehow gains from the presence of US bases in the UK: it doesn’t.
No - we probably break even - and I happen to agree with you. You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours. Just goes to show that you don’t get something for nothing. However, the way you go on one would draw the conclusion that the US is the loser in all this - it clearly isn’t. We all have benefits.
Sorry I am off but I will be back Friday assuming that there is no typhoon. Remind me to answer your assertions regarding US policy and our efforts to “prevent” weapons development. I can also repost the links detailing how even NATO (European) governments admitted to ignoring military development because they could rely on the US to defend them during the Cold War and even now, I would argue to a large extent that is still true. But later. Must run. Ciao.
fred