Goddman! No quote funtion or anything else. So. You don’t want a sprog. Your wife does. Well, I was in your basic position a few years back, and yet, and yet, there he was. larger than life and twice as needy. Guess what? That little wee tiny half-caste is the BESTthing that ever hapened to me. Can you even BEGIN to imagine waking up in the morning to a little fellow saying (shouting) "Daddy! Daddy! " Maybe you can. I can’t anymore. AND it is heaven on earth, I shit you not.
Go for it.
[quote=“Charlie Phillips”]…but what business is it of neighbors, colleagues and even my students who constantly make comments about it?[/quote]I believe most people unconsciously live according to a small number of socially-defined ‘scripts’ (for lack of a better word). Preset life plans, if you will.
At any particular stage, there are a discrete number of commonly enacted options: go to school, get a job, buy a car, marry, have kids, what have you. Your choices will often differ from your associates’, but so long as those choices are familiar, they’re acceptable.
Throw folks a knuckleball, do something utterly foreign to their expectations and experience, and you’re in trouble. That suggests the assumptions which have framed and shaped their lives were flawed: who knows what they might have missed? It suggests that the value of those things in which they’ve invested isn’t assured: and who knows, they could be sitting on a sub-prime ‘values’ bubble. Such heresy is disturbing; hence the interest in getting you back on the straight and narrow.
Social scripts have absolutely nothing to do with my feelings of parenthood. I just couldn’t be happier because of the joy of having a child. I’m sure most parents feel the same way.
On the other hand, I acknowledge that some who lack children may feel social pressure to have a child but that doesn’t take away from the fact that for most people a child brings immense joy into their lives (along with the occassional frustrations, which so far have been miniscule in our case) totally separate and apart from any social scripts.
Been thinking about this. No one knows him here, ( I assume) and we are all giving him the best advice that we can come up with. It’s objective and well meaning. Perfect!
As a father of two young kids, I tend to agree with the other parents here who say having kids is something you will not regret because chances are you will love the experience. That being said, I don’t think that you should necessarily go that route. What may be true for us may not be true for others and not everyone is destined to be a good parent. I can understand the OP’s concerns about the loss of freedom after having a child. This is definitely true and can lead to a lessened quality of life unless the joys of having a child offset this effect, which is not guaranteed. Besides the loss of freedom (and money), you will have lots of other things to think (or worry) about that come with being a parent. Just the burden of being responsible for the well-being of another person for many years should not be underestimated, IMHO. You will worry about your child’s health, safety, happiness, financial security, education, future, etc. All these aspects could put a dent in your quality of life which may cause you regret in the long run.
The OP is admittedly in a dilemma, but I think it is not the worst of dilemmas because he is still in control of events. The opposite dilemma of having kids that you love but being in conflict with your wife (many such cases have emerged in this forum) is much much worse because unlike divorcing when you are childless, divorce while having a child is always a lose-lose situation, IMHO.
Also, while you may think you are selfish not to want children because you don’t want to sacrifice your free time, you should know that people have children mostly for selfish reasons too. Whatever reasons you may have for wanting a child, chances are it is for a selfish reason, because you are hoping it will make YOU feel better, not society as a whole. And if we’re brutally honest, putting another human being on this overpopulated planet will probably not serve it (in fact, both the planet and the person) well (as a relatively recent parent myself, I’m quite aware of that aspect).
Anyway, it’s hard to give defnite advice, because as others here have said, it all boils down to whether your marriage is more important to you than your freedom to do the things you want to do (being an artist, etc). If both are equally important to you, you have a true dilemma. I wish you good luck.
@ Tempo Gain and Jaboney: QFT
I find it insensitive, though, for people to pry. For relative strangers to ask ‘Do you have children?’ is a fair enough question, but to then go on and ask ‘when are you going to have children?’ is presumptive and worse ‘Why don’t you have children?’ is downright fracking rude.
I feel like breaking down in tears and telling them I lost my block and tackle in the first gulf war or something.
My wife and I are in our forties, so it’s getting a bit late for us. I know I’m missing something important, but thems the breaks.
Where’e the fucking quote function. Anyways, something about being an “artist” and that having an effect on your decision to spawn. EYE’m an aritiste! I play both the saxerphone unt der ukerlele. The kid has turned out to be just another (somewhat shorter in stature) Muddy Basin Rambler. Aint no goddamn THANG!
Charlie, fair enough about the prying, but people likely did that to you before you were married too, right? “When are you getting married?” “Do you have a serious girl, yet?” And I bet you didn’t let that factor into actually deciding to marry. That stuff’s just noise, man. Filter it out and do what’s right for you.
[quote=“GC Rider”]As a father of two young kids, I tend to agree with the other parents here who say having kids is something you will not regret because chances are you will love the experience. That being said, I don’t think that you should necessarily go that route. What may be true for us may not be true for others and not everyone is destined to be a good parent. I can understand the OP’s concerns about the loss of freedom after having a child. This is definitely true and can lead to a lessened quality of life unless the joys of having a child offset this effect, which is not guaranteed. Besides the loss of freedom (and money), you will have lots of other things to think (or worry) about that come with being a parent. Just the burden of being responsible for the well-being of another person for many years should not be underestimated, IMHO. You will worry about your child’s health, safety, happiness, financial security, education, future, etc. All these aspects could put a dent in your quality of life which may cause you regret in the long run.
The OP is admittedly in a dilemma, but I think it is not the worst of dilemmas because he is still in control of events. The opposite dilemma of having kids that you love but being in conflict with your wife (many such cases have emerged in this forum) is much much worse because unlike divorcing when you are childless, divorce while having a child is always a lose-lose situation, IMHO.
Also, while you may think you are selfish not to want children because you don’t want to sacrifice your free time, you should know that people have children mostly for selfish reasons too. Whatever reasons you may have for wanting a child, chances are it is for a selfish reason, because you are hoping it will make YOU feel better, not society as a whole. And if we’re brutally honest, putting another human being on this overpopulated planet will probably not serve it (in fact, both the planet and the person) well (as a relatively recent parent myself, I’m quite aware of that aspect).
Anyway, it’s hard to give defnite advice, because as others here have said, it all boils down to whether your marriage is more important to you than your freedom to do the things you want to do (being an artist, etc). If both are equally important to you, you have a true dilemma. I wish you good luck.[/quote]
I wanted to say this but you’ve said for me and better.
I only wanted to add that, like Housecat, I also wanted 6 kids at the age of 16. I only managed 3 in the end and they’re all my pride and joy (literally). However I also empathise with your feelings that you (OP) want to pursue your dream and do the thing that defines you. When I was 16 I also wanted to be a writer, and now, 30 years later I’m still not being that person. Of course, lots of other things have got in the way as well as having children, not least my own self-doubt, but it wouldn’t be fair to sit here and say don’t worry, everything will be fine, you’ll love your kid’s socks off. You probably will love your kid’s socks off, but there’s no doubt that they do occupy an awful lot of headspace and even when they’re out of sight it’s still hard to get them out of your head.
However, as a woman with a strong maternal urge, I think it’s also probably fair to say that if your wife wants to have children that feeling won’t go away. It will only get stronger and perhaps become all-consuming. So you need to be fair to her in your decision. Either have a child or let her go. I think it would be nearly impossible for feelings not to fester if she sacrifices her need for a baby in order to stay with you.
One final thing, if you do have a child, have two. They’re less work because they play with each other. If you have one you have to be the playmate or resign yourself to the fact that they’ll watch TV, play computer games all day. Maybe you’ll have twins anyway.
Thank you so much for your thoughts. As divea said, none of you know me so I appreciate the sincerity of your comments and the time they took to write.
The general consensus on whether or not to have a child seems to be in favour of having a child, provided we can provide a loving home, which is the one thing that we can.
It makes sense that I owe having a child to my wife because it would be more traumatic for her not to have one that it would be if we did. Sandman, Dragonbones, Jaboney, Mother Theresa, baberenglish, Headhoncho II, BigJohn, Toasty – all these men present the same basic truth, that having a child is such a joy it eclipses any loss of freedom and inconvenience.
Housecat, when my wife and I speak about having a child, she echoed exactly your sentiments about giving me the space I need to do my art in peace and quiet, and that I just need to make time for it in my day. It is kind of her but I just don’t see that happening. I would not be able to hole myself in my study after work. I would be with my child, and after that I would be too tired to anything else. My private joy would shift from being an artist to a parent. I admire that fact that sandman can do both, as I am sure many other highly creative people can as well, but not me. I can only do one thing well at a time and I am easily exhausted. It takes me quite a while to unwind and get my mind in gear just after a school day. Raising a child carries an enormous weight of responsibility and commitment, to do it alone makes it doubly so. I commend you on being a brave single mum, and I am happy that the joy your children bring you make up for the unfortunate breakdown in the relationship with your husband.
Charlie Phillips, the pressure to conform to social mores and have a child is certainly there, but instead of it being the reason my wife wants to have a child it serves as a validation. Perhaps I should just stop all my fussing and have a child for the simple reason (as Battery 9 says) that it would make my wife happy. She is the person I love most in this world after all.
For a while, your private joy may have to shift from art to parenting, but if you work at rearranging your schedule and priorities (I gave up TV pretty much completely, for instance, in order to make room for things I want), eventually you should be able to work your art back into your life. You may be able to use that as a shared activity with your child once he or she reaches a certain age. I’m not a parent yet; our little Tochtli should arrive at any time, so perhaps my advice will change after a few years, but my feeling is that after a few years, you’ll be able to get your kid involved in some activities that will give you a little time to do what you want.
[quote=“silverspoon”] I would not be able to hole myself in my study after work. I would be with my child, and after that I would be too tired to anything else. My private joy would shift from being an artist to a parent. I admire that fact that sandman can do both, as I am sure many other highly creative people can as well, but not me. I can only do one thing well at a time and I am easily exhausted. It takes me quite a while to unwind and get my mind in gear just after a school day. [/quote]Quick follow up: when I suggested that you change you job so that you’re not exhausted by spending all day teaching kids, you replied that you are heavily invested in teaching. I expressed myself poorly. What I meant was that you could find a different teaching role: don’t teach kids. Or, don’t teach kids in an exhausting environment. I’ve taught high school, loved it, and gotten a real charge out of it; I’ve taught high school, loathed it, and been wiped out at the end of each day. Ditto bushibans. At the moment, I only teach privately, love the classes, and at the end of a 12 hour day (half spent editing) go home with lots of positive energy for my family.
It sounds like you’re already wiped out at the end of the day. So, why not set aside the parenthood question for the moment and address that. Can you retool your employment situation so that you’re in better shape in your off-hours? If so, you’ll have more energy for your art. You’ll have more energy for your wife. Do that and you’ll have a better idea of how much you could actually contribute to raising a rug rat. 
[quote=“Charlie Phillips”]
I find it insensitive, though, for people to pry. For relative strangers to ask ‘Do you have children?’ is a fair enough question, but to then go on and ask ‘when are you going to have children?’ is presumptive and worse ‘Why don’t you have children?’ is downright fracking rude.
I feel like breaking down in tears and telling them I lost my block and tackle in the first gulf war or something.
My wife and I are in our forties, so it’s getting a bit late for us. I know I’m missing something important, but thems the breaks.[/quote]
I understand that completely. Now, I get that with dogs, I like them and all that, just that in our current phase in life, we don’t have the luxury of adopting one and yet all the dog lovers (okay a lot of them) will be on my case and then a friend on FB posted this, (who is childless and really wants babies )
[quote]Do you feel loved? No? Then adopt a dog! Ask those who got a dog if you are not convinced.[/quote] :loco: :loco: Now I am tempted to write “Adopt an Orphan” on her wall but that’d be tooo insensitive.
I have people on FB who have adopted children and if they were to post sth. like that, they would get a lot of flak for it.
But that’s society, they will keep offering solutions to make your life fuller and happier. 
Ignoramus!
Thanks for that, Spoon, but the point was that I’ve wanted children my entire life–but was willing to childless if I had to do it alone. As much as I wanted kids, I did NOT want to be a single mom. Yet, though I ended up doing this alone anyway, I’m SO glad that I have my son! I’m glad that something happened in my life to override my own logic and best intentions.
You’re never ready to be a parent, you know. Even when you’ve wanted a kid your entire life. And there’s grace. There’s so much grace that comes with this kind of relationship.
You do what feels right for you and your wife. And if you decide that that means becomming a daddy, you’ll be okay. You might not be able to walk away from parenthood the way you think you could walk away from your marriage, but you might not want to, either.
And then life gets in the way, don’t it? And you suddenly realize late one night with puke all over your front that you wouldn’t have it ANY other way. Well, maybe not everybody. All I know is that as an “artist” I had all those same misgivings that the oeriginal poster has. And they have proven, in my case at least, to be utterly, utterly crap. I can STILL do all the things I did before. WIth the additional benefits of all the joys of being a daddy. Just takes a bit more forward planning, that’s all. They’re wanting us to go play some featival in Montreal later this year, but I don’t think I can swing it. Oh, well. No biggie. Some folk festival on the other side of the world or being away from my boy for three weeks? No CONTEST!
Let me take the other side, even though some of you might throw some rocks at me, and you might think I’m being a bitch.
Please, please DO NOT have children. EVER.
Children deserve a dad who loves them with his whole person, without reservation, and without prescribed hours when they are permitted to bother him.
Children deserve a dad who is not seething with resentment about the time, money, and energy they take. They do not understand time or money, and they are pure energy, so they do not understand that you are tired.
Your wife deserves a true partner in parenting. She does not deserve to be a single parent living in a house with another adult. That is much harder than being a single parent, alone.
Your families deserve a loving father to their grandchildren, nieces/nephews, cousins. Because if you are not there for your wife and your kids, your extended family likely will try to pick up the slack.
You’re selfish. That’s fine. Don’t subject your children to the soul-crushing experience of being lightly loved, or loved when it’s convenient, or being seen as a duty.
(And yes, I’m a parent. I have a son in his 20s, a teenage stepdaughter, a pre-teen daughter, and a toddler son. I was also a single mother for six years. I love my children more than my own life and have wanted each of them more than you can even imagine.)
P.S. It is 100% possible to be a parent, an employee, AND an artist. When my daughter was 3, I was a single mom, I was working 60 hours a week at a highly-technical job, and I had two ceramic masks in a juried show (1st place and 4th place). My daughter happily played at my feet for hours while I worked on my clay projects. I did my stained glass projects after she was asleep because she couldn’t be around the lead came, but I have never given up my art because I had children. Being a parent means being flexible and making the important things happen despite the obstacles; you don’t seem much interested in either of these… really, please, don’t have kids).
Sandman wrote: “And you suddenly realize late one night with puke all over your front that you wouldn’t have it ANY other way. Well, maybe not everybody. All I know is that as an “artist” I had all those same misgivings that the original poster has.”
Puking up on oneself does lead to some soul searching. Anyway, I thought you had cut back on the bottle since the lad arrived.
As for being an “artist,” nay darling, you are an “artiste.”
But, on something slightly off-topic, the pursuit of art in this story raises an interesting question; when should the would-be writer, painter, musician or such, raise the red flag on his or her endeavors and honestly admit "Well, I’ve tried to make a go of it for ten years and not really got anywhere - It’s unlikely I’ll ever make a living from it or reach the level of perfection and recognition I desire,"and scale it back to a regular hobby?
There’s a fine line between pursuing your dreams and self-indulgent escapism.
[quote=“almas john”]
But, on something slightly off-topic, the pursuit of art raises in this story raises an interesting question; when should the would-be writer, painter, musician or such, raise the red flag on his or her endeavors and honestly admit "Well, I’ve tried to make a go of it for ten years and not really got anywhere - It’s unlikely I’ll ever make a living from it or reach the level of perfection and recognition I desire,"and scale it back to a regular hobby?
There’s a fine line between pursuing your dreams and self-indulgent escapism.[/quote]
Gladwell: Late Bloomers: Depends how you feel about Cezanne and his ilk, I suppose.
[quote=“bitter, battered and crushed”]But, on something slightly off-topic, the pursuit of art raises in this story raises an interesting question; when should the would-be writer, painter, musician or such, raise the red flag on his or her endeavors and honestly admit "Well, I’ve tried to make a go of it for ten years and not really got anywhere - It’s unlikely I’ll ever make a living from it or reach the level of perfection and recognition I desire,"and scale it back to a regular hobby?
There’s a fine line between pursuing your dreams and self-indulgent escapism.[/quote]
You have to “get somewhere?” You have to “make a living from it?” Well, colour me Britney Spears! I never heard that one as a marker! I like to make music, and I can. Therefore, it’s art, to me, at least. The making money thing doesn’t even enter the picture and never, ever has. Maybe I should call myself a dilletante, but I 'aint too good at the spelling of all them fancy monikers. I CAN spell “burned out boozehound” though! Get that fucking snake book finished!