A good life is all about love, or should be. Without love, nothing else matters. Living for the sake of personal fulfillment might give you pleasure in the superficial sense of the word, but I don’t think it will bring you joy. You don’t have to have children to have a fulfilling life, of course, but you shouldn’t focus too much on what makes YOU happy, because in the end, it’s a bit of an empty promise.
I had a great time in my twenties and thirties, and I enjoyed being sans children right up to the moment I started having them. My life now, though, is infinitely better because of my children, and although I’ve always thought my marriage was pretty good, having kids made that infinitely better as well.
[quote=“DiaFun”]Let me take the other side, even though some of you might throw some rocks at me, and you might think I’m being a bitch.
Please, please DO NOT have children. EVER.
Children deserve a dad who loves them with his whole person, without reservation, and without prescribed hours when they are permitted to bother him.
Children deserve a dad who is not seething with resentment about the time, money, and energy they take. They do not understand time or money, and they are pure energy, so they do not understand that you are tired.
Your wife deserves a true partner in parenting. She does not deserve to be a single parent living in a house with another adult. That is much harder than being a single parent, alone.
Your families deserve a loving father to their grandchildren, nieces/nephews, cousins. Because if you are not there for your wife and your kids, your extended family likely will try to pick up the slack.
You’re selfish. That’s fine. Don’t subject your children to the soul-crushing experience of being lightly loved, or loved when it’s convenient, or being seen as a duty.
(And yes, I’m a parent. I have a son in his 20s, a teenage stepdaughter, a pre-teen daughter, and a toddler son. I was also a single mother for six years. I love my children more than my own life and have wanted each of them more than you can even imagine.)
P.S. It is 100% possible to be a parent, an employee, AND an artist. When my daughter was 3, I was a single mom, I was working 60 hours a week at a highly-technical job, and I had two ceramic masks in a juried show (1st place and 4th place). My daughter happily played at my feet for hours while I worked on my clay projects. I did my stained glass projects after she was asleep because she couldn’t be around the lead came, but I have never given up my art because I had children. Being a parent means being flexible and making the important things happen despite the obstacles; you don’t seem much interested in either of these… really, please, don’t have kids).[/quote]
I couldnt agree more! If you have dreams you will pursue them no matter what and a child should not be treated/understood as an obstacle. If it is, as OP describes, just give yourself more time to become a dad.
If you can’t become a professional artist now (i.e. without kid and with all free time you have), don’t fool yourself that it will change after having a kid.
[quote=“silverspoon”]The reasons I don’t want children myself are both tangible and emotional. On a tangible level my biggest concern is not being able to provide for a child in the way that I would want. I know that you don’t have to spend a lot of money on things like education, but instead of that being a comfort it is a worry. I would hate to send my child to a state school. Our flat is too small. We could move in to a bigger house down the line, but that would mean a bigger mortgage and even greater financial pressure – again more of a worry than a comfort.
On an emotional level, I don’t want to give up my freedom. Knowing that I can do whatever I please when I get home from work keeps my life in balance. It scares me to lose that ability. Speaking of work, as a teacher I have my fill of kids during the day. I cannot imagine having to be Mr. Disciplinarian when I get home as well. I need a break from young people for at least half the day.
Most significantly, I don’t like the feeling of people being completely dependant on me. My wife depends on me a lot, as I do on her, but we are both perfectly capable of doing things for ourselves and being self sufficient, unlike kids.
Having a child is also too much of an emotional risk for me. If they mess up, they mess up my life too. What if my child is just not a nice person? Having a wife is also an emotional investment, but unlike a child, if she messes up, I have the ability to leave her and get on with my life.[/quote]
Very valid reasons, in both the tangible and emotional realms.
It's damn solid that you have put a lot of time and energy thinking this thing through.
I must confess that it's a damn gamble crossing the line unto parenthood. Once you go over, there is never any turning back. Everything, down to the smallest detail with which one views any seemingly innocuous event, changes forever. Folks that have never spawned can't even comprehend by any means how much it changes one's prism. The only thing I have ever experienced that ever came as close to such a prism warp was being under accurate fire.
That's how deadly serious a shift it is in the parameter.
All this said, I'd only be really selfish if I said I wanted to go back across the line. And no doubt, a few times I may have wished I could. Yet such is only a fleeting grasp at straws one might have played. In the final analysis, it must be said that having children makes one mature on so many levels, that trickle on all down the line.
I also do understand your concerns about art, but rest assured spawning opens new doors on that front, most especially from having to confront the fresh prism that children force you to hold up to the light of everyday reality.
It should also be mentioned that spawning costs a whole and a half wad of cash, time and energy.
In conclusion, it's entirely your choice, as I'm well sure you realize. The main thing to keep in mind is to follow up on one's choice, and live by it, creed-style.
Best of luck with whatever fork in the road you choose.
ugh…good luck with making the decision. I waited years to get a dog in Taiwan, because I didn’t want to be tied down…and here I am , 6 dogs eating my sofa!
Just a story I want to share (not to put pressure or anything on you) My boss really wanted children. Her husband didn’t…but she really did. Then, after yearssssss, they finally started trying…and it turned out the hubby couldn’t give her any. She was here in Taiwan all sad, he was working in China. After many tests etc, stress, they divorced…and lo and behold…
I walk into the school and the whole world is gossiping and her mother (our main boss) is storming around looking like the Exorcist. My boss hooked up with our poor (financial) bus driver…and my boss was expecting! They soon got married and after the baby came…she’s another person. Really. Even the worst drama at school doesn’t phase her, that kid just makes her so happy.
DiaFun, your post read like a slap in the face but that is exactly what I needed to be honest. I agree with what you on most counts, especially with regard to putting my wife in a difficult position. My wife certainly “does not deserve to be a single parent living in a house with another adult.” I don’t think it would come to that if we really had a child but I would probably have off limit hours with my child, which might not be a good thing.
When I was a child it was quite normal for me not to disturb my father at certain times in the day. “Daddy’s busy now, go play outside.” It was as simple as that. I did not regard him as a playmate, so it was fine. Nowadays things have changed. Fathers are far more involved in their children’s lives and spend more time with them. This is a good thing of course.
I don’t think I would be capable of “lightly loving” my child. It is far more likely that I would love it completely and utterly, and in turn my life would revolve around that person. Ironically, that is one of the reasons I don’t wish to have a child. I want my life to centre around me. I am not ashamed of that because as someone else mentioned, people that have children also want their lives to centre around their own needs, of which having a child is the biggest.
Maoman, Battery 9 and Ginger Man, I appreciate your comments too. Happiness in life certainly does depend on making choices that are in your best interests and standing by them.
[quote=“silverspoon”], people that have children also want their lives to centre around their own needs, of which having a child is the biggest.
[/quote]
In most cases, having a child is not really a big need for most parents. But yes, doing the best for them takes precedence over all needs/ambitions/plans/people…you get the gist, right?
In most cases, having a child is notreally a big need for most parents. But yes, doing the best for them takes precedence over all needs/ambitions/plans/people…you get the gist, right?[/quote]
A big need?
You're kidding, right?
But else would one gather from that which offers V.V Gogh, but delivers otherwise?
[quote=“divea”][quote=“silverspoon”], people that have children also want their lives to centre around their own needs, of which having a child is the biggest.
[/quote]
In most cases, having a child is not really a big need for most parents. But yes, doing the best for them takes precedence over all needs/ambitions/plans/people…you get the gist, right?[/quote]
A big need?
You’re kidding, right?
But else would one gather from that which offers V.V Gogh, but has not the comprehension of same?
Sorry, but maybe marriage wasn’t the right option for you. You don’t divorce someone because they mess up. It’s supposed to be a lifelong commitment, just like a child. Sadly, most people don’t feel that way anymore. As you say, a child is a lifelong commitment, but so is a spouse (for better or worse and all that).
She wants a kid, you don’t. You’ve been with her since she was 20, took her off the market 7 years a go and now she’s 30, basically over the hill in Taiwan with very limited options (even if you get divorced), and her biological clock is running out, unlike yours which can still father children for several decades. Seems unfair, even selfish. And on many levels your attitude seems very selfish (which is fine, see below).
Ok, that’s the “tough love” part of my post done with.
Selfishness is all good, as long as you’re honest about it. And from your posts, it seems you were very honest with her from the beginning. So knowing this, then why did she marry you? Well, she obviously loves you, and it’s apparent (as she still wants kids) she was hoping she would wear you down or change your mind. Many women make this mistake, in that they marry a man that doesn’t really fit in with their hopes for the future, but they hope they will be able to change him. In the west, after seven years of marriage at the age of 30 she could divorce you to continue with “your own things after work”, and find someone to marry who wants kids and shares her vision for the future. In Taiwan this is much harder, if not impossible, to do at her age.
From your side, so you’re selfish. So what? So am I. Very selfish, probably even more than you, I’m willing to wager. It’s fine to be selfish and it’s fine to admit it and live a selfish life living for yourself, not wanting to worry about kids, their schooling, their future, depending on you for 20 or more years, and the luxury of being able to get home from work and spend your free time as you wish, to be able to do what you want on vacations and to be able to spend every free cent as you please. Nothing wrong with that at all, and good for you for admitting that and questioning that part of the equation.
However, the day you married her you already gave up some of that freedom, some of that luxury, in that you are responsible for your partner on some level and you are responsible for her happiness in some way (as she is for yours), because like it or not, you are now bound to each other and divorce will toss up other issues and questions (Why did you waste my time for ten years when I could have found a nice Taiwanese man to marry and have a family with? for example…). But, vice versa on her part, as she always knew you didn’t want kids, but married you anyway.
I’m taking a bit of a hard line here, so you can consider all the angles. But in short, you are right. You seem to feel responsible for her happiness in the form of agreeing to have a kid, but you question the alternative, what about your freedom etc etc.
Basically, Jaboney said it all here:
It’s really up to you two.
Mate, I hope my post doesn’t come off as lambasting you, as that isn’t my intention. Call it playing Devil’s Advocate, if you will. But I wish you all the best in your future decisions on this. And let me end with this thought:
I never wanted children either. Mostly because of the same reasons you’ve listed. That said, my little boy is the best thing in my life. His little arms wrapped around my neck when he hugs me and says, “I love you.” is worth all the “sacrifice” in time or money. When he’s not with me, I’m torn apart inside and can’t wait to see him again. I can watch him play for hours and never get bored. He makes me love his mother even more, because I wouldn’t have him if it wasn’t for her. And even if I lost him, my life would be richer for just having had him in it. If he grew up to be less than I hoped he would be, I would still love him.
I could go on, but I’m willing to bet that you would never be sorry. But it is not a decision to be made lightly, and it is a decision that only you can make for yourself. I only hope, that for you and your wife, you make the right one.
[quote=“divea”][quote=“silverspoon”], people that have children also want their lives to centre around their own needs, of which having a child is the biggest.
[/quote]
In most cases, having a child is not really a big need for most parents. But yes, doing the best for them takes precedence over all needs/ambitions/plans/people…you get the gist, right?[/quote]
I don’t really think that’s the case for a lot of parents. I’ve seen plenty of cases where kids take second place, traditionally in the old days that was almost almost always the case with ‘distant’ fathers, the world still went on. Now you got a lot of working women, by neccessity their work often takes precedence.
Lots of parents farm their kids off to grandparents here for the first few years, it doesn’t seem to do too much harm.
Everybody is so obsessed about having enough money or not being able to give the kids enough attention or the best education they are not having kids .
In complete agreement.I don’t know why people think they need money to raise kids. I wasn’t raised extravagantly, my parents never bought a book for me, we just subscribed to monthly comics and when older, borrowed books from the school library and yet I will not say it was a life of hardship, or that I am not imaginative, creative or organized enough. About attention, well, the kids need some, and unless you are farming the kid out to a third party for 12 hours a day (after school hours), there is no dearth of attention.
I’m not sure that anyone is ever 100% certain that they are ready to have a child. But I kid you not, OP, having one is absolutely bloody fantastic. Best decision my wife ever made for me. A source of continuous joy.
We now have two kids (age 3 and 1) and it definitely takes up your time but in a good way. I did have to rearrange my schedule a bit to give myself some “me” time. My kids sleep late, until 9:30 A.M. so I get up around seven and have a few hours to myself. My wife and I take turns putting them to bed so every second night there’s an hour or two there as well.
I quit teaching kindergarten after the second one came because I didn’t want to deal with the little kids at school anymore. I much prefer to deal with my little kids. This did mean less money but it also meant a lot more time to spend with my kids which is well worth it.
Everyone talks about needing all this money to raise kids but you don’t need a lot more. Once you buy the big ticket items things remain pretty cheap. We had to buy a car, car seats, stroller and some other things but these are all one time purchases. After that, we don’t spend a lot of money. We get second hand clothes from people and usually buy new clothes at the night market which are quite cheap. They may not last that long but the kids grow out of the stuff in six months to a year anyway so why spend a fortune. In fact, every time we go to Canada, we stock up on second hand clothes from the discount stores. We keep our eye out for sales on books and toys.
My point is that yes it does cost more having children, but not an extravagant amount more, particularly living here.
Anyway, my kids are getting up which means I have to go for my morning hugs.
Good luck in your decision. Despite all the advice, you still need to decide what is right for you. What’s right for you includes not just you but also your wife and her wants. It’s a tough choice
There’s no need to buy second hand clothes in Taiwan as you can buy everything very cheaply online (well nightmarket/hypermarket is pretty similar). That’s the secret. But there is nothing wrong with using/buying second hand clothes either! To be honest you can buy cheap clothes all over the world now, there may be a small variation in quality but as previous poster said they grow out of them quickly. You can rent toys onlne aswell, as kids get bored with them easily we have done this (for bigger items) and it works pretty well. Taiwan is a pretty cheap place to have/raise a kid actually.
I wouldn’t guilt trip if you can’t afford for them to go to a private school and become an ivy leaguer. I’d rather have more kids than send one of them for a private eduation.
I have never wanted children, and neither has my husband. This was an issue we discussed early on in our relationship back in 1997 and if one of us had wanted them, we wouldn’t have taken things further. But, as luck had it, we were on the same page. We have been married since 1998 and neither of us has changed our minds. However, as strong as we are, I know that if one of us turned around and said that we wanted children, that would be the end of our relationship. Yes, we are deeply in love and each other’s best friend…but that would be the breaking point. If he wanted them, I would want him to be with another woman who wanted them, and I know that the feeling is mutual in that way. I know that we would love a child unconditionally should it happen, but that’s not the point…it wasn’t in the ‘contract,’ so to speak, and if one of us wanted to bring children into the equation, that would simply be the end of our marriage.
I know couples like us who felt the same way and then one partner decided that they wanted a family, and they went ahead and had children. The results of this are varied from what I have seen…very happy couples who are glad they did it, and other not-so-happy couples who ended up divorcing because there was a feeling that their life had changed in ways that they couldn’t accord to…despite loving their children, there is sometimes a touch of resentment at their partners who they felt ‘forced’ them into having a family.
On a side note, I really don’t understand how people can say it is selfish not to want children. How is that selfish? It’s a choice…you want them or you don’t. I don’t think it is selfish to stand your ground when you really don’t want to have them and your partner does, especially if there was an agreement prior to marriage.
I’m not in Taiwan yet but my experience of children is that they’re only cheap while they’re young. As they get older they get a lot more expensive, and I’m not talking about giving into whims about designer items or private schooling. You can multiply your current expenditure per adult and then add some for every teenager in your household. For example, I’m currently working full time to save up enough to help my two older boys through university. That’s in addition to the loans they’ll have to take out. And we’re lucky that my second son is going to uni this September because tuition fees are going to be massively hiked from next year onwards.
The impression I get from reading responses here is that most people who are replying have children of elementary school age or younger. It’s very easy to raise young children cheaply, although not many people factor in the loss of earnings to the parent who provides the majority of the childcare. It’s defintely not so easy the older they get. I’ve also read lots of anxiety about sending children through the Taiwanese school system. Some posters have commented that they might even return home in order to avoid this. I actually think the OP is being realistic when he anticipates a drain on finances.
Not to mention the fact that most kids nowadays don’t exactly leave Mom and Dad’s home after they graduate from university! Parents could be helping to support their kids well into their 20’s or even older. =(
The stat I read many years ago was that the average cost of raising a child in the United States is a million dollars. Children are a MAJOR drain on resources, and to think otherwise is pretty naive.
America is an expensive place to have a kid, thankfully not all countries are like that. Taiwan is much much cheaper. It is true 3rd level education is getting more expensive but that just means kids will have to think harder about what they study in college and also they can carry some of the load with loans and part-time work. Lots of expenses are family expenses anyway, you just have to modify your lifestyle a bit. Yes it costs more to have kids but I don’t think it’s that onerous.
If they want nike shoes or the latest phone when they are teenagers they can go and get a part-time job.
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