TSU: Some Immigrants Shouldn't Be Citizens

Legal Human Rights
1

[quote]
By Debby Wu
STAFF REPORTER
Saturday, Nov 27, 2004,Page 3

The Taiwan Solidarity Union’s (TSU) legislative caucus said yesterday that it would amend the law to prevent Chinese immigrants from enjoying the rights of citizenship, so that the Chinese government could not manipulate Taiwanese politics.

The TSU caucus said that it would demand that the government not issue identity cards to Chinese immigrants under any cicumstances, but instead the immigrants should only be given Taiwanese “green cards,” which would grant them the right to stay and all basic human rights – except citizenship.[/quote]
taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … /200321274

2

I hereby volunteer to chair an exploratory NGO group to investigate this outrage!

I am requesting support from Taiwan Beer to provide funding and refreshments for the long sessions of investigatory study I foresee as needed.

Headquarters will be located here in Tainan. I will gladly offer my courtyard offices for this purpose. The rear lane should provide easy access for deliveries and staff.

I anticipate funding needs of NT$1,500,000.00 for 1st years needs.

Contact thru Forumosa PM is acceptable.

3

Well, having seen the way that more recent Chinese immigrants behave themselves in Canada and the US, it doesn’t surprise me. I also feel that current Chinese ultra-nationalism makes it very hard to take for granted the new citizens loyalty to his adopted country over his motherland. They are coming from a country that refuses to renounce the threat of violence against Taiwan and few seem willing to denounce that, certainly the ones I’ve questioned about it would only try to squirm around the issue. If they’re not loyal to Taiwan, why should they get citizenship?

4

Morally this is pretty clear cut discrimination, and as such I should denounce it, but as you say hsiadogah, out of all the number of recent Chinese immigrants to NA I’ve met (many of whom I’m friends with), the vast vast majority are not only completely loyal to the motherland and swallow whole the huge lumps of tiger dung the PRC spits out, supporting it first and their new country a distant second, but also ignorant of their new country, prefering to stay in cloistered communities and barricade themselves from “the foreign influence” of the new country. Just give me the passport thank you very much and I’ll be off. :noway: Talk about screwing up referendum and policy votes…

If only that oath you have to swear to obtain citizenship had a lie detector at the same time, or some other such way to ensure the newly landed met atleast a word of it.

This is of course a generalization and I know many great friends who hate the PRC and embrace their new land whole-heartedly.

5

That could be said of would-be immigrants from other places as well.

6

What utter tosh. I am surprised at you. Replace the word “Chinese” with “Jewish” and read what you wrote again. Shall we make people born in China wear yellow stars too? Thank God people like you are in the minority in the UK or my wife would never have got a British passport. Back to 1930s Germany with you.

7

Now, if we all cool down a little bit…

Honestly, I see no problems with requiring people to stay in a country for an extended period of time before a citizenship is granted. Also, making sure that the applicant has a decent grasp on the culture, language, mores, and rules for good behavior is also OK, as long as people, who might fail are offered permanent residence as a substitute.

That you divide applicants, like fast-tracking people who are married to citizens, and then perhaps slow-tracking people, who came for purely economic reasons, is also OK, as well… if you live with a person of that ethnic background, you will gain an understanding of what the new country is about a great deal faster, than if you live in a bubble made up of say Chinese-language pro Beijing newspapers, (ethnic) chinese friends, and the like.

Allegiance is also a problem as such, as you are supposed to have allegiance to your “new” country. However, there’s fine line between freedom of expression, thought etc. and the allegiance you owe to the country you are a citizen of.

It’s therefore hard to solve, but to demand ‘more’ of some and less of others can be very problematic, as you end up in situations, where people are sorted due to ethnicity.

I would sort them based on status(IE marriage immigrants, work immigrants, refugees, and the like), and then make a differnet set of rules for each group.

This is not discriminatory as such.

8

A brilliant idea and one that has worked well in nearly all countries with high immigrant populations.
However, the impression I get from the above article in the Taipei Times is that the TSU would like to see immigrants screened on the basis of ethnicity. The TSU is set to become a major political power after the next election making me wonder what kind of changes we might see in Taiwan

9

A brilliant idea and one that has worked well in nearly all countries with high immigrant populations.
However, the impression I get from the above article in the Taipei Times is that the TSU would like to see immigrants screened on the basis of ethnicity. [/quote]

The Taiwanese government already sorts citizens of all countries into “born in China” and “not born in China”. Regardless of your citizenship, if you were born in China you will not get a resident visa unless you can prove you have been resident abroad for more than four years and you did not spend more than 30 days in China during any of those years.

I am intrigued by the “loyalty” argument. I have three nationalities. To which of these should I show primary “loyalty”.

For a very long time people born in Ireland were entitled to British citizenship. Had those people filled out the relevant forms what would have been the affect on the UK of the non-loyalty of the republican proportion of those new British citizens?

What can be said of the “loyalty” of the substantial number of Taiwanese who live in Taiwan on American passports? Have they not shown their “loyalty” to Taiwan by choosing to leave and adopt a new nationality, and ensure their children do not have to fulfil their national service obligations when they pop in and out of Taiwan?

On what basis can the “loyalty” to Taiwan of a foreigner who has chosen deliberately to live here and seeks citizenship be questioned? If this person is refused naturalisation on the basis that he wishes to also hold another nationality, then all current holders of ROC and other nationalities have their ROC nationality revoked.

Is there a meaningful test of “loyalty” that can be applied? I am sure there must be trading with the enemy and treason laws in Taiwan that can deal with all citizens who wish to abet enemies or unlawfully overthrow the government. Or is the presumption that people born “Taiwanese” parents and brought up here are less likely to become “traitors” than naturalised citizens?

Should we create an environment where newly naturalised citizens should fear criticising the government in the manner non-naturalised citizens take for granted, lest they have their citizenship stripped from them, or their bona fides questioned? Should we in effect create second class citizens? (Of course Taiwan already has this: ROC “citizens” without right of abode in Taiwan, and ROC citizens with right of abode. British nationalities have similar classes.)

“Loyalty” tests and questioning the loyalty of certain sections of the citizenry have been excellent ethnic cleansing tools down the ages, surely we have to apply one law to all? I wonder sometimes how loyal to our home nations those of us who have chosen to live permanently abroad actually are. I will draw another huge lungful of wacky baccy and proclaim that we should look at ourselves as people of the world, man, and try and ensure that some day everyone has every country’s nationality and there are no more “bloody foreigners”. Cough.

10

There is no cute petite answer, hence why the problem exists in almost any country I can think of that has high per capita yearly immigration. Maybe they should try the buddy system… :s Oh wait then we have to worry about the idiot portion of the population realllly screwing them up. :noway: :noway:

11

But this ‘problem’ doesn’t have anything to do with immigration. They’re already living in the country - the issue is how much rights you give these people. I can’t for the life of me see any morally justifyable reason for denying them basic citizenship. Of course the TSU believe they shouldn’t become citizens because they suspect they will not vote for the TSU when they do.

Mainlanders are already discriminated against in the process they must go through to become citizens; to deny them any chance to become citizens (and so tell them that they MUST remain citizens of the PRC - and so presumably must remain loyal to the PRC) is just bizarre.

Incidentally, check out the response by the ‘Cross-Strait Marriage Harmony Promotion Association’ to this proposal:
taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003213698
Basically this body is arguing that they should only be allowed to become second-class citizens (ie not have all the rights of someone born in Taiwan). If that’s as far as any citizen is willing to go to protect the rights of mainland brides, then I think it’s vital that as many mainland immigrants become citizens as possible. How else is anyone going to stand up for their rights?

12

I agree. There’s another way perhaps of getting around the surface loyalty issue, and that is, like other countries who frown on dual citizenship, require the Chinese spouses to renounce their PRC citizenship and return those passports to the Chinese authorities. Admittedly, this is not applied to locals who take out US citizenship, for example, but then how many other countries are threatening to invade?

Yet it seems premature to dismiss the deeper loyalty issue. You become a citizen of a country not just on the basis of having a spouse but also because there are fundamental principles that the country attempts to instill in its citizenry. One of these is to simply exist and defend itself if necessary. Now, if in becoming a citizen of the ROC/Taiwan, one were required to sign a declaration expressing loyalty, and a spouse, or anyone else, balked at picking up a pen, would you knock her/him back? I certainly would.

But in general, there is nothing defensible in rejecting Chinese spouses citizenship once they pay the dues anyone else does. And the idea that they form some sort of security risk (as opposed to an electoral risk) is laughable when you consider how many PRC agents or would-be agents there probably already are throughout agencies here that have real power.

At the same time, when I think of vulnerable and disadvantaged Asian brides in this country, I do not think of PRC expats. Of all of the nationalities, the Chinese women are already the best organized when it comes to mobilizing resources and political allies. And really, that should come as no surprise. And so for the moment I am not particularly concerned about them, compared with, say, the Cambodians or the Vietnamese.

13

[quote=“hexuan”]The Taiwanese government already sorts citizens of all countries into “born in China” and “not born in China”…

On what basis can the “loyalty” to Taiwan of a foreigner who has chosen deliberately to live here and seeks citizenship be questioned? If this person is refused naturalisation on the basis that he wishes to also hold another nationality, then all current holders of ROC and other nationalities have their ROC nationality revoked.[/quote]

You have to consider that when applying for naturalization in Taiwan, foreigners who desire to keep their original nationality do so for many reasons, including very important legal issues in their “home” countries, such as inheritance rights, property ownership rights, insurance policy matters, health insurance matters, ownership/investment in businesses, and a wide range of other legal issues. In most cases, these matters are of no concern to the ROC government.

In other words, if a person who is living here is a Taiwan citizen, he/she cannot claim any special privileges due to the fact that he/she also has a foreign passport. He/She still has to obey all Taiwan laws and regulations.

Hence, the true discrimination here is allowing those of so-called Chinese blood to have (obtain, hold, etc.) both an ROC passport and a “foreign” passport, but then denying that right to those of non Chinese blood.

I assume that this is done to assure that foreign influence is kept to a minimum … although I suppose there could be other explanations …

14

Hexuan, I’ll overlook the nazi slurs since your judgement here seems a little clouded by the fact your spouse is a PRC national. The parallel itself is so stupid that I won’t dignify it by knocking it down for you. Maybe you should lay off the booze and wacky baccy on typhoon days :wink:

Maybe if and when Taiwan has a better grasp on it’s own identity then some sort of oath of allegiance is worth looking into. I guess there never was any need for one before in a society with so little immigration. Every single PRC bride I’ve asked has answered the question, “which side would you support if China attacked?” with either ardent support for the PRC or no answer at all. That bothers me. I don’t like the idea of having multi-tiered citizenship either, but the idea of all these new citizens who would cheer the PRC on in a missile attack just bothers me. It’s like running around the US saying you applaud the WTC attack and would support another one.

15

Well, force the mainland brides to swear an oath of allegiance… This will be for show only, though.

However, given an ethnic propensity not to honor commitments not in own interest, I would imagine that a fair proportion of the PRC brides would still cheer the missiles on, in case of a PRC attack.

How else could you weed out people, who are not loyal to the ROC? Interviews? Only a fool would say at an interview that she was pro PRC and anti ROC. Result… No need to bother with those.

What to do then? Deny them citizenship. That’s the only solution, if you are to be sure of not granting citizenship to mainland Chinese whole loyalties are in doubt.

Is there any inherently racist in denying citizenship to a special ethnic group? Yes, which makes this solution unpalatable to most of us here. However, it can be argued that China is a special case, as in principle, PRC citizens are already ROC citizens, and PRC has some not very benign designs on the ROC.

That said, none of the mainland brides are in a position, where they can do any meaningful harn to the ROC defenses in case of an invasion, so the damage by granting them citizenship regardless of where their loyalties lie should be limited.

16

Actually there is no oath to be taken when becoming an ROC national.

At least I didnt take one.

If a war really comes I expect to see a lot of short termers flee Taiwan.

Refering to Hexuans comments… The argument about being able to retain your own nationality when becoming an ROC citizen is for the ROC to decide. Most countries in the world allow only single nationality.

Most asian countries will revoke the nationality of their citizens should they become citizens of another country. The fact that ROC nationals can obtain a second nationality without losing their ROC nationality is irrelevent to those trying to become ROC nationals.

Seems that too many foreigners expect that they should be able to play both sides…

Would Hartzell have become an ROC citizen in 1985 or 1995 if he was able to? NO … This is because the USA would have revoked his US citzenship anyway for obtaining ROC nationality.

Having dual nationality is not a right, it’s a priveledge. Some countries allow it some don’t.

You choose to live here, so you have to follow the law of the land here, not the land you left. Seems many people fail to understand that concept.

17

Simply not true, and in the case of the ROC, not true either.

Absurd. Of course it’s relevant.

Brian

18

Yes of course, I am incapable of rational argument on the subject because my wife was born in China. :unamused: My wife is NOT a PRC national she is a naturalised British citizen who has sworn an oath of allegiance to Queen and country, if you are going to accuse me of poor judgement at least get the facts straight.

“Nazi slurs”? No. What I mean is the principle that makes us all horrified by the Nazis is that we do not single out sections of our population on the basis of race, origin, language, or whatever, and accuse them of being potentially “disloyal”, especially when we don’t provide a definition of “loyalty”. No one who has used that word has provided a definition. Can you see why I would object to that? And I am not a simpleton whose moral compass has turned just because his wife’s from China. My objection comes from having heard the word “loyalty” used in Ireland over and over again to justify bad things. You may well have had similar experiences yourself, I don’t know, but I can’t see a discussion of “loyalty” going anywhere nice.

What a bizarre thing to ask someone. If anyone asked my wife that they’d get told to go and fuck themselves. No. In fact I am almost certain she would answer “I would welcome them in with open arms” just to piss off the idiot who’d asked such a question. I’d have to say, and I enjoy your posts, that if you asked my wife that I would take it as a considerable insult. You didn’t really ask a “mainland bride” that did you? :astonished: God it reminds me of those (thankfully) rare people who ask me whether I’m a Protestant or a Catholic when they hear I’m from Northern Ireland.

Ah, to hell with this. I actually don’t care that much. I’m not looking for a fight by the way, I’m just surprised that anyone would suggest that Chinese women living here are some sort of fifth column ready to leap up and sing “Dong Fang Hong” as the CCP kills all around. (They’re married to Taiwanese for God’s sake.) Isn’t all this fighting and invading and moronic nationalism a very male thing?

19

[quote=“Satellite TV”]
If a war really comes I expect to see a lot of short termers flee Taiwan.[/quote]

I expect to see a lot of Taiwanese flee Taiwan.

Doubt it.

Why not? Why does it matter in which order the citizenships were obtained? Indeed if it mattered, those who take on another nationality are calling into question their “loyalty” to the first country. So why should Taiwanese citizens be allowed to take on another nationality? Yellow people are more “loyal” than white ones?

Note: I have noticed people trying to split the hair that because some white guys have ROC passports it’s not racist. That’s like saying a sign which excludes people with tight curly hair and dark skin is not racist. “Hey, my mum’s got dark skin and tight curly hair, and she’s white!” they cry. The fact of the matter is, all the people that become naturalised Taiwanese citizens have to give up their previous nationality. It is assumed by the Taiwanese that most of them will be from countries they regard as crap, so the candidates will only be too glad to give up their original passports. This leaves only ethnically Chinese Taiwanese people with dual nationality. Convenient, eh? Wouldn’t want the country full of ROC-Indonesians or ROC-Vietnamese or whatever now, would we? It’s not us whiteys they hate, per se, but they’re not allowing SE Asians or smelly mainlanders to become Taiwanese unless they swear blind they love Taiwan more than anything and would only be too glad to give up their measly worthless previous nationality and thank you so much Mr Eastwood for letting me become Taiwanese. Meanwhile the Taiwanese are busy preparing their passports of convenience in case the PRC invades the country they insist everyone but themselves die for. That judge that told aierlanren he wouldn’t be “loyal” enough to Taiwan if he retained his Irish passport will be one of the first to the airport, I guarantee it. He will of course expect aierlanren to fight to the death here against the commies whilst he’s sunning his big fat arse in California and the Yanks are dying by the hundred fighting for Taiwan. And you want to become Taiwanese? :astonished:

It is perhaps the greatest hypocrisy in the world. Well, it’s a big one anyway.

[quote=“Satellite TV”]
Having dual nationality is not a right, it’s a priveledge. [/quote]

Not necessarily. I got my three nationalities by operation of the law of the respective countries the moment I was born, and they cannot be taken away except by a retrospective act of parliament. (Notice the way it’s only very insecure or nationalistic countries that fear dual nationality. These are countries which use the terms “loyalty” and “motherland” a lot. “Patriotism” is another of their favourites.)

[quote=“Satellite TV”]
You choose to live here, so you have to follow the law of the land here, not the land you left. Seems many people fail to understand that concept.[/quote]

The law can be changed. Even in Taiwan.

If they would give us proper PR like we give their citizens it would suit them better. Honestly, couldn’t run a bath that lot in the Ministry of Xenophobia.

20

[quote=“hexuan”]My wife is NOT a PRC national[/quote]I knew she was a PRC national. I didn’t know she’d renounced citizenship. Does China accept that it’s citizens give up their nationality, or do they always consider you Chinese-in-denial. Anyway…

[quote=“hexuan”]“Nazi slurs”? No. What I mean is the principle that makes us all horrified by the Nazis is that we do not single out sections of our population on the basis of race, origin, language, or whatever, and accuse them of being potentially “disloyal”, especially when we don’t provide a definition of “loyalty”.[/quote]Hitlers victims didn’t have a country to divide loyalties with, and most all considered themselves first and foremost as nationals of the countries they lived in. A great many Chinese however do not. Next there is the little matter of the military forces that China has arrayed against Taiwan. One thing that even Hitler didn’t lie about to rile up the masses was that the Jew had his own army and missiles ready to destroy them or assimilate them by force…
No one wants to see a McCarthy style witch hunt or anything, but raising the specter of the holocaust in this discussion is flawed logic, overly dramatic and as such, is disrespectful to it’s victims.

[quote=“hexuan”]You didn’t really ask a “mainland bride” that did you? :astonished:[/quote]Yes, I did, though it wasn’t the first question I asked them. I soften them up a bit first with friendly queries about how they like it here, how they get on with the in-laws etc. Then I drop the big one on them. :smiling_imp:
Hey, not many people here think twice about asking me the most personal of questions. In fact they feel it’s their god-given right. Now it’s my turn. If by chance I ask your wife this question you’re welcome to tell me to fuck off. :smiley: :beer: